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[Wingnut]

Since theory's article calling Develop the worst $3 card (no way it's worse than Chancellor though it normally is pretty bad), I have been trying to figure out a way to play the card as an important part of a strategy that doesn't include Border Village. Not that I can ever replicate it, but I managed to play a kingdom where it is possible.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201201/04/game-20120104-200801-ab7a1eac.html

Here, I open with Develop and Talisman with the intention of buying a double village and then developing the Talisman to Wharf/Village if possible. It didn't exactly go as planned, but, with the embargoes, my opponent was scarred off of Wharf and avoided Gold. At the mid-game, I realized that I was losing (of course I was losing, I built my strategy around one of the worst cards in the game for no real reason) and switched to a Silk Road strategy, using a Talisman to double up on Develop and Develop a Develop into a Silk Road and an Estate.

Needless to say, this isn't exactly ideal, but it worked (big assist to Farmland as well to get the win on the final turn).

Thoughts on this? Feel free to call me totally insane, even though I won the game.

[thespaceinvader]

It does have the occasional niche strategy when there are good 7s - I had a brutal game the other day involving repeatedly topdecking KC/Mountebank...

[GendoIkari]

Develop was a nice addition to my engine in this game too:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120104-154531-b8dd5ca4.html

Definitely not quite a win because of Develop, but Develop silver into Pearl Diver + Conspirator is really nice!

[Kahryl]

Man, Develop is my favorite card in Hinterlands.  It's SO bad but SO much fun to use.  The trick is to trash the most EXPENSIVE card in your hand (that has a $1 value above it anyway), rather than the cheapest/weakest that you normally trash.  It doesn't matter if you never get around to trashing those coppers if your deck is being flooded with $6/$5/$4 cards

The only problem is you're constantly playing with 3-card hands with all the Develop trashing.. and that sometimes the cards available to gain don't play nice with each other AT ALL.  That and none of this gets you provinces.  Provinces I think are key.

[Epoch]

I really don't understand the level of hatred that Chancellor seems to provoke.  It's not a lot more useful than a Silver, certainly, but it's +$2 on a $3 cost card.  It just can't be that bad.  Of course Develop is worse than it.  Develop is actively terrible for almost all decks out there, while Chancellor is essentially a minorly useful card in pretty much any deck that doesn't have lots of dead draws or terminal conflicts.

It feels like the sentiment that Chancellor is a uniquely terrible card is driven by, I don't know, early impressions from people before they understand the importance of tempo and the not-terribly-difficult skill of managing terminal conflicts?

[Kahryl]

Chancellor is a much simpler card than Develop, so it's easy to see that it's a bad value when you compare it to other terminal silvers.

Develop on the other hand has a lot of potential to it, and its weaknesses come out mainly thru use or careful thought.

Although MANY Base set actions are very weak and very simple (Chancellor, Village, Woodcutter, Workshop, Feast, Spy, Adventurer) so I'm not sure how Chancellor got singled out from that list.  Maybe because he looks so sad.

[Davio]

I really don't understand the level of hatred that Chancellor seems to provoke.  It's not a lot more useful than a Silver, certainly, but it's +$2 on a $3 cost card.  It just can't be that bad.  Of course Develop is worse than it.  Develop is actively terrible for almost all decks out there, while Chancellor is essentially a minorly useful card in pretty much any deck that doesn't have lots of dead draws or terminal conflicts.

It feels like the sentiment that Chancellor is a uniquely terrible card is driven by, I don't know, early impressions from people before they understand the importance of tempo and the not-terribly-difficult skill of managing terminal conflicts?

It's not that Chancellor is bad, it's just that other cards are usually better, which makes Chancellor relatively bad.

If you have a kingdom with Chancellor, you might also have Militia and you have to ask yourself how many terminals you want and if Chancellor is a valued addition to your plan. If you can play it every single time you draw it in your 5-card hand or from a drawing action card, it's way better than Silver of course.

I once played a game with both Witch and Chancellor and it was sort of helpful, since I'd discard if I had already played the Witch, otherwise I wouldn't. But not discarding every time you play it in the early and mid game takes some value away from it, not to mention the possibility of drawing it with Witch, having to wait for the shuffle to see them both again.

[Anon79]

I really don't understand the level of hatred that Chancellor seems to provoke.  It's not a lot more useful than a Silver, certainly, but it's +$2 on a $3 cost card.  It just can't be that bad.

On the contrary, this is precisely why Chancellor is so bad, and a large part of why Fortune Teller is bad. Cards that are "just" +$2 on a +$3 card have to perpetually justify why I should get them over Silver - available in every game - in a way that say Shanty Town & Smuggler do not.

[chwhite]

Cards that are "just" +$2 on a +$3 card have to perpetually justify why I should get them over Silver - available in every game - in a way that say Shanty Town & Smuggler do not.

I certainly think Smugglers (and its close cousin Workshop) needs to justify itself against Silver in a similar manner. In fact I'd say that they fail to justify themselves more often than any terminal silver that isn't Duchess (which was more or less explicitly designed to be never worth buying with $3 to spend).

[Anon79]

Cards that are "just" +$2 on a +$3 card have to perpetually justify why I should get them over Silver - available in every game - in a way that say Shanty Town & Smuggler do not.

I certainly think Smugglers (and its close cousin Workshop) needs to justify itself against Silver in a similar manner. In fact I'd say that they fail to justify themselves more often than any terminal silver that isn't Duchess (which was more or less explicitly designed to be never worth buying with $3 to spend).

Interesting. My primary use for both Workshop & Smugglers is in grabbing green cards; Workshop for Gardens or sometimes Islands/Tunnels (don't think I've played it with Silk Roads yet), Smugglers for Duchies/Dukes/Fairgrounds. Another less common use - less common at least for me - is to build up a large engine (so grabbing those Caravans / Farming Villages / etc). In these uses, I find that they usually don't conflict with Silver because Silver doesn't give +buy; usually they are better than Woodcutter as well because they "net" more than $2.

[DStu]

Of course Smugglers/Workshop and indeed every card that costs more than $3 has to justify itself against Silver. As some gamedesigner mentioned, this is trivial.

The point is that the dimension in which Smugglers/Warehouses have the potential to find justifications are completely different to Silver. So a Chancellor is "a Silver with problem of terminal collision and advantages at cycling", which is more or less the same direction as "Silver". Smugglers/Workshop is something completely different. So while of course you also have to think if a Silver would not suit your deck better than one of them, they may open up completely different directions (like "grab lots of cheap cards") that Silver does not offer.

[Empathy]

I know it's nothing particularly new, but devel => KC/saboteur did win me an otherwise completely losing game.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120105-075805-d17b4ab2.html

(note the win probability flip right before T12).

[Thisisnotasmile]

I know it's nothing particularly new, but devel => KC/saboteur did win me an otherwise completely losing game.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120105-075805-d17b4ab2.html

(note the win probability flip right before T12).

Although you then got hit by a Militia and discarded your Saboteur. I mean, you were lucky that you drew it again off of the KC-KC-Market that you kept, but I don't think you can claim topdecking KC-Sab won it for you when you didn't get to use the combo straight from the topdeck.

[Empathy]

I know it's nothing particularly new, but devel => KC/saboteur did win me an otherwise completely losing game.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120105-075805-d17b4ab2.html

(note the win probability flip right before T12).

Although you then got hit by a Militia and discarded your Saboteur. I mean, you were lucky that you drew it again off of the KC-KC-Market that you kept, but I don't think you can claim topdecking KC-Sab won it for you when you didn't get to use the combo straight from the topdeck.

2 King's Court, 0 Gold, 3 Market, 1 Saboteur, 0 Militia, 1 Develop, 2 Silver, 1 Wishing Well, 0 Chapel, 0 Estate, 0 Copper

There is only one scenario where I don't draw the saboteur without a KC floating around: draw 2 silver+devel on my first tripled market. That's a 5% chance of getting screwed over. Given the situation I was in, high variance was my game.

The key part was to topdeck the KC, and to have the saboteur in the deck. Having the other KC in hand was the icing.

[Thisisnotasmile]

Fair enough. Didn't realise your deck was so small.

[Epoch]

On the contrary, this is precisely why Chancellor is so bad, and a large part of why Fortune Teller is bad. Cards that are "just" +$2 on a +$3 card have to perpetually justify why I should get them over Silver - available in every game - in a way that say Shanty Town & Smuggler do not.

Well, one hopes that you find the justification pretty straightforward:  Fortune Teller means that your opponent's next hand is effectively 4 cards.  Chancellor lets you cycle your deck.  Above & beyond what the Silver does.

BTW:  Does anyone EVER get Workshop outside of the particular case of "combo with Gardens"?

[Kahryl]

On the contrary, this is precisely why Chancellor is so bad, and a large part of why Fortune Teller is bad. Cards that are "just" +$2 on a +$3 card have to perpetually justify why I should get them over Silver - available in every game - in a way that say Shanty Town & Smuggler do not.

Well, one hopes that you find the justification pretty straightforward:  Fortune Teller means that your opponent's next hand is effectively 4 cards.  Chancellor lets you cycle your deck.  Above & beyond what the Silver does.

BTW:  Does anyone EVER get Workshop outside of the particular case of "combo with Gardens"?

"combo with Silk Road" 

[greatexpectations]

BTW:  Does anyone EVER get Workshop outside of the particular case of "combo with Gardens"?

- a draw engine if there are villages on the board
- useful $3/$4 cards you don't mind filling your deck with, like caravan, tournament, mining village, great hall, menagerie
- highway and maybe bridge
- gardens, fairgrounds, silk road

its obviously not a great card, but there are a few instances i like to grab them.  usually not more than one though, unless i am rushing something.

[GendoIkari]

On the contrary, this is precisely why Chancellor is so bad, and a large part of why Fortune Teller is bad. Cards that are "just" +$2 on a +$3 card have to perpetually justify why I should get them over Silver - available in every game - in a way that say Shanty Town & Smuggler do not.

Well, one hopes that you find the justification pretty straightforward:  Fortune Teller means that your opponent's next hand is effectively 4 cards.  Chancellor lets you cycle your deck.  Above & beyond what the Silver does.

BTW:  Does anyone EVER get Workshop outside of the particular case of "combo with Gardens"?

After going probably months without ever buying Workshop, in the last few days I've bought it in 2 different games; both with Highway I think. It's quite nice once you can gain $5s with it.

[Elyv]

I've been crushed a couple of times by an early workshop on a board with multiple engine components costing 4 or less. It's something that I've been meaning to do more, but I keep forgetting when it does actually come up.

I've also seen Workshop only for grabbing caravans, not sure if that's good though.

[chwhite]

On the contrary, this is precisely why Chancellor is so bad, and a large part of why Fortune Teller is bad. Cards that are "just" +$2 on a +$3 card have to perpetually justify why I should get them over Silver - available in every game - in a way that say Shanty Town & Smuggler do not.

Well, one hopes that you find the justification pretty straightforward:  Fortune Teller means that your opponent's next hand is effectively 4 cards.  Chancellor lets you cycle your deck.  Above & beyond what the Silver does.

BTW:  Does anyone EVER get Workshop outside of the particular case of "combo with Gardens"?

Silk Road, obviously.  If there aren't any power $5s, Workshop enabling Caravan spam is often a good idea.  I could see it being useful in some sort of Hamlet/FV/Watchtower engine as well.  And Vineyards, can't forget Vineyards.

[chwhite]

Of course Smugglers/Workshop and indeed every card that costs more than $3 has to justify itself against Silver. As some gamedesigner mentioned, this is trivial.

The point is that the dimension in which Smugglers/Warehouses have the potential to find justifications are completely different to Silver. So a Chancellor is "a Silver with problem of terminal collision and advantages at cycling", which is more or less the same direction as "Silver". Smugglers/Workshop is something completely different. So while of course you also have to think if a Silver would not suit your deck better than one of them, they may open up completely different directions (like "grab lots of cheap cards") that Silver does not offer.

The Silver test may be old hat, and we've all gone beyond Silver by now, and yes it is trivial for many cards.  But I'd say it still has particular bite for Workshop and Smugglers, as they're terminal $3 cards which help you get other cards.  They do open up different avenues, yes, but you need to balance that against the fact that they close off the usually much more important avenue of "build up to $5 and $6 cards on your own terms", an avenue that Silver keeps open just fine.  (Yes Smuggers can get you larger cards, but it can also often get you nothing: relying on Smugglers to build an engine is like relying on Treasure Map to get Gold- usually a bad idea.)

[Wingnut]

I've been crushed a couple of times by an early workshop on a board with multiple engine components costing 4 or less. It's something that I've been meaning to do more, but I keep forgetting when it does actually come up.

I've also seen Workshop only for grabbing caravans, not sure if that's good though.

I don't think Workshop for Caravans only is enough. If there are multiple engine components (particularly a village) then yes, but not for caravans on their own. That said, if there is any source of +buy there is no reason for Workshop and if there is no source of +buy and some type of engine isn't the best thing in a lot of kingdoms anyway.

[WanderingWinder]

On the contrary, this is precisely why Chancellor is so bad, and a large part of why Fortune Teller is bad. Cards that are "just" +$2 on a +$3 card have to perpetually justify why I should get them over Silver - available in every game - in a way that say Shanty Town & Smuggler do not.

Well, one hopes that you find the justification pretty straightforward:  Fortune Teller means that your opponent's next hand is effectively 4 cards.  Chancellor lets you cycle your deck.  Above & beyond what the Silver does.

BTW:  Does anyone EVER get Workshop outside of the particular case of "combo with Gardens"?

Yes, I gain workshop 47.1% of the time it's available, and my win rate with it is significantly better than without. There aren't THAT many gardens games...

[Davio]

On the contrary, this is precisely why Chancellor is so bad, and a large part of why Fortune Teller is bad. Cards that are "just" +$2 on a +$3 card have to perpetually justify why I should get them over Silver - available in every game - in a way that say Shanty Town & Smuggler do not.

Well, one hopes that you find the justification pretty straightforward:  Fortune Teller means that your opponent's next hand is effectively 4 cards.  Chancellor lets you cycle your deck.  Above & beyond what the Silver does.

BTW:  Does anyone EVER get Workshop outside of the particular case of "combo with Gardens"?

Yes, I gain workshop 47.1% of the time it's available, and my win rate with it is significantly better than without. There aren't THAT many gardens games...

I only gain it 14.2% of the time, win rate with is 1.04 ± 0.39 and win rate without is 1.24 ± 0.15, so I wonder where your stats come from and what I'm missing here. What do you use it for? I often see players get crazy when Caravan is on board and they just have to have that Workshop/Talisman/Ironworks, but I'd rather have 4 Caravans and a Silver than 6 Caravans and a "dead" Workshop.