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Author Topic: an 8$ card  (Read 55920 times)

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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #150 on: August 01, 2015, 03:19:03 am »
+1

commissioned fan art done by an artist who didn't even like it
"Commissioned fan art" isn't fan art, it is a job by a pro.
Hey, would anyone like to become a professional artist today? I'll give anyone that draws me a "really good" bucket of water the 42 cents left in my debit/giftcard thing
Whether you like it or not,there are ample of professional artists whose job is their art. Michelangelo appeared in the discussion and he was a proand if we consider board game design to be a form of art there are also some professonal board gamer designers. Rosenberg, Wallace and, guess what, Vaccarino come to mind.


It is based on the Bible, so it is by definition Biblical fan art.
That's like saying that Shakespeare is "(historical) fan art" because he used stuff like Holinshed's Chronicles while writing some of his plays, i.e. it is utterly preposterous.


Horatio and you guys agree that:

-The average fan card is worse than the average official card
-Some fan cards are better than some official cards

What fact do you disagree about? Repeating those two things back and forth isn't going to help.

Personally, I think Horatio is saying:
-it's impossible as a non-published designer to consistently design cards approximately as good as official ones.

Horatio, is that correct?
Yep, I said so here here. Obviously there are ample of cards here which are better than cards like Thief, Spy or Scout.

Should have been obvious that my statement is a stochastic one. If one says that men are stronger than women, that X is a better runner than Z or that the weather will be bad tomorrow it is totally clear to anybody who is not a total moron that the stochastic caveats are implicit.
ON AVERAGE men are stronger than women, UNLESS Z HAS A GOOD DAY AND Z A BAD DAY, X is the better runner than Z, THE LIKELIHOOD THAT IT WILL RAIN TOMORROW IS .8 is how you would state the above stuff unambiguously. Stylistically such statements are quite horrible which is why nobody uses them.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 03:33:09 am by horatio83 »
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Haddock

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #151 on: August 01, 2015, 03:40:18 am »
+4

Should have been obvious that my statement is a stochastic one. If one says that men are stronger than women, that X is a better runner than Z or that the weather will be bad tomorrow it is totally clear to anybody who is not a total moron that the stochastic caveats are implicit.
ON AVERAGE men are stronger than women, UNLESS Z HAS A GOOD DAY AND Z A BAD DAY, X is the better runner than Z, THE LIKELIHOOD THAT IT WILL RAIN TOMORROW IS .8 is how you would state the above stuff unambiguously. Stylistically such statements are quite horrible which is why nobody uses them.
Fine.  Noone is disagreeing with you on this.  Stochastic arguments are fine. 
The problem we have is that you originally used this argument as a reason for people not to bother working that hard on their cards.  At this point, your argument essentially comes down to "Fan cards, on average, are not as good as official cards, so fans shouldn't bother to try to make their cards as good as possible."  Do you honestly not see the problem we have with this? 
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #152 on: August 01, 2015, 04:14:06 am »
0

The problem we have is that you originally used this argument as a reason for people not to bother working that hard on their cards.

Nope, I never made such an argument:

Quote
Donald is totally right that there should be no 8$ card in a normal Dominion set, they are just too wacky. But then again nobody here is so arrogant as to assume that some stupid fan cards can as good as official cards.

I said that my card is wacky (in this very thread we also shortly discussed why 8$ cards are problematic) and that I am fine with that (otherwise I wouldn't have done an 8$ card in the first place) as fan cards are worse than official cards anyway.
I didn't say though, and already said that I never intended to imply to, that one shouldn't strive to improve one's cards. This includes this very card, given the limitations (the main problem are the large returns so an early investment pays off (too) well, as opposed to games in which a player who early hits 8$ can only buy a 6/7 action card or Gold and the lack of mitigation of this via delaying the payoffs like in the case of Prince) of making an 8$ card well balanced.

It's like running your first marathon. Of course you should have ambition and train hard for it but be friggin' realistic and don't expect to or pretend to be the first in the finishing line as there are folks who ran some already and have more time to train.

And last but not least I'd like to point out again that I play with quite some fan cards and also use fan-made stuff in other boardgames. I guess the large majority of boardgamers is not doing that so if I am biased in any way it is not against but towards fan material.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 04:24:59 am by horatio83 »
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #153 on: August 01, 2015, 04:27:02 am »
+7

My problem with your posts is particularly that you seem to intentionally misunderstand what other people say here and confront everyone about it in an insulting and incriminating way. Although no one seems to disagree with the base line of your argument you continue to make propositions that what other people are implying is moronic when in fact no one here is that stupid. You just assume everybody is stupid and show your contempt in every post you make which is impudent and disrespectful. It would also feel like this if you weren't new to the forums but since you are, it appears like you only come here to take on anyone who points out anything wrong with your argument no matter how diplomatically they express themselves. Stop acting up!
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #154 on: August 01, 2015, 04:29:21 am »
+1

It's like running your first marathon. Of course you should have ambition and train hard for it but be friggin' realistic and don't expect to or pretend to be the first in the finishing line as there are folks who ran some already and have more time to train.

If you use "I'm not as good as the more experienced runners anyway" as an excuse to not do your best, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #155 on: August 01, 2015, 04:42:03 am »
0

you only come here to take on anyone who points out anything wrong with your argument no matter how diplomatically they express themselves. Stop acting up!
Acting up? The point of a forum is to debate with people you disagree with (unless one is a fascist and believes in harmonic, organic unity; but thankfully this is is not a place where fascists gather). Unlike some other folks in here I do at least read the posts instead of assuming that somebody wrote something which he actually did not write.


It's like running your first marathon. Of course you should have ambition and train hard for it but be friggin' realistic and don't expect to or pretend to be the first in the finishing line as there are folks who ran some already and have more time to train.

If you use "I'm not as good as the more experienced runners anyway" as an excuse to not do your best, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
True. But neither me nor anybody else claimed that one shouldn't strive to improve one's cards.
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Asper

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #156 on: August 01, 2015, 06:26:29 am »
+4

But then again nobody here is so arrogant as to assume that some stupid fan cards can as good as official cards.

Should have been obvious that my statement is a stochastic one. If one says that men are stronger than women, that X is a better runner than Z or that the weather will be bad tomorrow it is totally clear to anybody who is not a total moron that the stochastic caveats are implicit.
ON AVERAGE men are stronger than women, UNLESS Z HAS A GOOD DAY AND Z A BAD DAY, X is the better runner than Z, THE LIKELIHOOD THAT IT WILL RAIN TOMORROW IS .8 is how you would state the above stuff unambiguously. Stylistically such statements are quite horrible which is why nobody uses them.

Your statement isn't stochastic. Even though you adapted it slightly during the discussion (from "no fan card can be a card as good as official cards" to "no fan can repeatedly make cards as good as Donald's") to give your point a little more substance, it's still not stochastic. Stochastic would be "fans on average have a higher likelihood to make bad cards than Donald has", and, applied to all fans overall, nobody here doubts that.

Your claim isn't that, though, it's that no possible fan could ever be as good as Donald. As you don't have information about every existing fan and gave no forcing logical reason why that should be the case, you are just making statements that you can't back up. It's like saying no free-time runner could be as fast as a specific olympic runner. It might be true that there is none, but claiming it's generally impossible is just wrong.

So now you say, hey, i never implied it's general, i was just making a stochastic statement on fans overall. Of course there could be a fan who's as good as doing stuff as the official creator, i just wanted to say it's very unlikely. If so, well, forgive me, but i can't shake the feeling you're just changing your mind now to avoid looking bad.

Besides, Black Market is "whacky". King is expensive and strong, and that's it.
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #157 on: August 01, 2015, 07:07:13 am »
0

But then again nobody here is so arrogant as to assume that some stupid fan cards can as good as official cards.

Should have been obvious that my statement is a stochastic one. If one says that men are stronger than women, that X is a better runner than Z or that the weather will be bad tomorrow it is totally clear to anybody who is not a total moron that the stochastic caveats are implicit.
ON AVERAGE men are stronger than women, UNLESS Z HAS A GOOD DAY AND Z A BAD DAY, X is the better runner than Z, THE LIKELIHOOD THAT IT WILL RAIN TOMORROW IS .8 is how you would state the above stuff unambiguously. Stylistically such statements are quite horrible which is why nobody uses them.

Your statement isn't stochastic.
You trying to tell me that expected values aren't stochastic? Seriously?
As I already said a zillion times, my point is that the average (To avoid further misunderstandings I use average here in the sense of stochastically average, i.e. 'expected'. When I say "an average Monument yields about 4-6 VPs" this means "the expected VP token payoff of a Monument is around 4-6" but do not use the latter, more technically precise wording as it sucks stylistically. Gee, it is a card game so it should be hyper-crystal-clear that we are not in a deterministic world!) fan card, is far worse than the average official card. Obviously if you restrict the sample to the best fan cards or fan card designers the difference in average quality diminishes.



Quote
i can't shake the feeling you're just changing your mind now to avoid looking bad.
Well, I cannot shake the feeling that this is less about (direly wanting to misunderstand) my statement but more about fellow fan card designers being pissed off because somebody told them the obvious: that their cards might be inferior to official cards as they are not Donald X and have not played dozens or hundreds of times with large enough playtesting groups yet.
Unlike you I seem to be able to deal with that simple objjective fact and my subjective preferences for fan cards respectively fan material in general.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 07:12:48 am by horatio83 »
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Asper

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #158 on: August 01, 2015, 07:58:46 am »
0

But then again nobody here is so arrogant as to assume that some stupid fan cards can as good as official cards.

Should have been obvious that my statement is a stochastic one. If one says that men are stronger than women, that X is a better runner than Z or that the weather will be bad tomorrow it is totally clear to anybody who is not a total moron that the stochastic caveats are implicit.
ON AVERAGE men are stronger than women, UNLESS Z HAS A GOOD DAY AND Z A BAD DAY, X is the better runner than Z, THE LIKELIHOOD THAT IT WILL RAIN TOMORROW IS .8 is how you would state the above stuff unambiguously. Stylistically such statements are quite horrible which is why nobody uses them.

Your statement isn't stochastic.
You trying to tell me that expected values aren't stochastic? Seriously?

I'm trying to tell you that

But then again nobody here is so arrogant as to assume that some stupid fan cards can as good as official cards.

has nothing to do with stochastics. It's not hard to understand, unless of course you refuse to.
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #159 on: August 01, 2015, 08:53:31 am »
0

But then again nobody here is so arrogant as to assume that some stupid fan cards can as good as official cards.

Should have been obvious that my statement is a stochastic one. If one says that men are stronger than women, that X is a better runner than Z or that the weather will be bad tomorrow it is totally clear to anybody who is not a total moron that the stochastic caveats are implicit.
ON AVERAGE men are stronger than women, UNLESS Z HAS A GOOD DAY AND Z A BAD DAY, X is the better runner than Z, THE LIKELIHOOD THAT IT WILL RAIN TOMORROW IS .8 is how you would state the above stuff unambiguously. Stylistically such statements are quite horrible which is why nobody uses them.

Your statement isn't stochastic.
You trying to tell me that expected values aren't stochastic? Seriously?

I'm trying to tell you that

But then again nobody here is so arrogant as to assume that some stupid fan cards can as good as official cards.

has nothing to do with stochastics. It's not hard to understand, unless of course you refuse to.
Direly wanting to misunderstand me indeed. I already said numerous of times that such statements imply ON AVERAGE and not ALWAYS.

If I said for example that a sprinter is better at running 100m than me I obviously mean that he is on average, i.e. in most of the cases, quicker than me. He might be ill, he might become old or whatever and in these cases he is not quicker.
Obviously it is not necessary to add "on average", every adult person who is not totally braindead (ot intentionally wanting to misread somebody) is aware of all the preconditions, caveats and subtexts of language.

Anyway, this "discussion" has become pointless. If I pissed of some arrogant fan designers who cannot deal with the fact that they are not the next Donald X this is more of an achievement than an error.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 08:55:40 am by horatio83 »
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Awaclus

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #160 on: August 01, 2015, 09:00:38 am »
+4

If I pissed of some arrogant fan designers who cannot deal with the fact that they are not the next Donald X this is more of an achievement than an error.

The problem is that you seem to think this actually happened.
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #161 on: August 01, 2015, 09:36:21 am »
+1

Obviously it is not necessary to add "on average", every adult person who is not totally braindead (ot intentionally wanting to misread somebody) is aware of all the preconditions, caveats and subtexts of language.

So, if you make a really, really dumb statement, the reader is supposed to add caveats and context so it becomes less dumb? I'll keep this in mind for the future.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #162 on: August 01, 2015, 09:41:57 am »
+2

If I pissed of some arrogant fan designers who cannot deal with the fact that they are not the next Donald X this is more of an achievement than an error.

The problem is that you seem to think this actually happened.

You pissed off everyone because you are completely oblivious to what they're actually saying and show repeatedly that you don't care about the discussion but rather just like to insult everyone. Obviously, you cannot argue without being impudent and condescending. Everyone else is still being polite which I acknowledge but can't really comprehend. But you should be grateful that we're so patient with you and shut down your verbal aggression.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 09:44:41 am by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #163 on: August 01, 2015, 09:46:54 am »
+1

If I pissed of some arrogant fan designers who cannot deal with the fact that they are not the next Donald X this is more of an achievement than an error.

The problem is that you seem to think this actually happened.

Yeah it's weird.

I'm sorry, Horatio, but I don't care enough about your opinions to get angry about the things you say. I'm willing to have a discussion, but you're not worth getting upset at.
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #164 on: August 01, 2015, 01:45:58 pm »
+2

1. Make blanket claim that fan works are always worse than official/professional works.
2. Everybody points out how blanket statement is incorrect.
3. Spend a dozen posts reiterating this position.
4. Claim everybody arguing against him is just being pissy.
5. Finally claim that his repeated blanket statement was "implicitly stochastic" all along and that he actually doesn't disagree with anybody that the blanket statement was false.
6. Call everybody morons for interpreting the original statement as written.

Yeah, OK.  If that's what you originally meant, you could have cleared it up at the start.  Something like, "Sure, there actually are some great fan works, but I actually meant that they are worse on average."  Instead, you wrote this:

Dude, there is some really great fan fiction out there and some really terrible published stuff as well.  Having talent for something doesn't mean you'll end up doing it for a living, and doing something for a living does not mean you are any good at it.  And you are underestimating how much testing is done by some of the fan card makers here.
Nope. First, to get actually good at writing, as with anything in else in life, you have to do it constantly over years. This is why people who only do it for a few hours a week in their spare time cannot become good at it.
Second, if you compare fan fiction, something which is derivative and unimaginative, to proper literature you are direly begging to not be taken seriously.
Same with Dominion fan cards. If any of us were good at designing games they would, big surprise, actual design their own game and not do derivative work. Then again I am not really surprised that fan(atic)s overestimate their skills.
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #165 on: August 01, 2015, 02:04:48 pm »
+2

Obviously it is not necessary to add "on average", every adult person who is not totally braindead (ot intentionally wanting to misread somebody) is aware of all the preconditions, caveats and subtexts of language.

So, if you make a really, really dumb statement, the reader is supposed to add caveats and context so it becomes less dumb? I'll keep this in mind for the future.

It's not the reader's responsibility, but I'd argue it's a good idea if you want to leave your mind open.
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #166 on: August 01, 2015, 02:15:30 pm »
+3

You (Horatio) said in your second post on this page that you know $8 cards should not be in an official set because they're problematic. And yet you're still fine with that.

That sounds a lot like not wanting to improve your cards.
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #167 on: August 01, 2015, 02:34:50 pm »
+2

Dude, there is some really great fan fiction out there and some really terrible published stuff as well.  Having talent for something doesn't mean you'll end up doing it for a living, and doing something for a living does not mean you are any good at it.  And you are underestimating how much testing is done by some of the fan card makers here.
Nope. First, to get actually good at writing, as with anything in else in life, you have to do it constantly over years. This is why people who only do it for a few hours a week in their spare time cannot become good at it.
Second, if you compare fan fiction, something which is derivative and unimaginative, to proper literature you are direly begging to not be taken seriously.
Same with Dominion fan cards. If any of us were good at designing games they would, big surprise, actual design their own game and not do derivative work. Then again I am not really surprised that fan(atic)s overestimate their skills.

That is exactly what I meant. These statements are insulting and based on nothing but seemingly hatred/disrespect towards fan writers/designers/whatever. From this point on I stopped taking you seriously. You disrespect cannot be founded in a rational point of view. Or do you think you are the only one being rational here while everyone else is an ignorant moron? Seems very unlikely.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 04:05:30 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #168 on: August 02, 2015, 07:35:42 am »
0

You (Horatio) said in your second post on this page that you know $8 cards should not be in an official set because they're problematic. And yet you're still fine with that.

That sounds a lot like not wanting to improve your cards.
Sure, I could make it more expensive but 9$ cards are problematic in Colony games. I could make it weaker and price it at 7$ but then it would have to be a Double Peddler as anything else would be too strong and this is obviously not what I want
This is why I have to accept its natural limitation of being an 8$ card and try to improve it despite of that.


1. Make blanket claim that fan works are always worse than official/professional works.
[...]
5. Finally claim that his repeated blanket statement was "implicitly stochastic" all along and that he actually doesn't disagree with anybody that the blanket statement was false.
You might wanna stop making things up. I never used the word always or all.

If you do not understand or unwilling to understand that statements of the kind "tomorrow the weather will be bad" means "tomorrow the weather will MOST LIKELY be bad" and not "tomorrow the weather will DEFINITELY" be bad I cannot help you.


That is exactly what I meant. These statements are insulting and based on nothing but seemingly hatred/disrespect towards fan writers/designers/whatever. From this point on I stopped taking you seriously. You disrespect cannot be founded in a rational point of view. Or do you think you are the only one being rational here while everyone else is an ignorant moron? Seems very unlikely.
Pissed off fan card designers indeed. ^^

Saying something like "Shakespeare is better writer than some fan fiction author" or "Kuroswa is a better director than Michael Bay" has nothing to do with hatred (for the umptenth times, I have printed about 40 fan cards so I obviously like fan cards; I also sometimes read fan fiction but just because I subjectively like it from time to time doesn't mean that I lose my objectivity and cannot be honest about it being medicore or bad literature), disrespect or irrationality but with lack of interest to play postmodern relativistic games. Not everybody who is engaged in artistic activity is making something sublime.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 07:43:16 am by horatio83 »
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Asper

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #169 on: August 02, 2015, 08:03:43 am »
+2

1. Make blanket claim that fan works are always worse than official/professional works.
[...]
5. Finally claim that his repeated blanket statement was "implicitly stochastic" all along and that he actually doesn't disagree with anybody that the blanket statement was false.
You might wanna stop making things up. I never used the word always or all.

If you do not understand or unwilling to understand that statements of the kind "tomorrow the weather will be bad" means "tomorrow the weather will MOST LIKELY be bad" and not "tomorrow the weather will DEFINITELY" be bad I cannot help you.

"nobody here is so arrogant as to assume that the weather can be good tomorrow" => "tomorrow the weather will certainly be bad (and everybody who disagrees is arrogant)" =/= "tomorrow the weather will be bad"

"nobody here is so arrogant as to assume that some stupid fan cards can as good as official cards.[sic]" => "fan cards are always worse than official cards (and i like to back up my points by insulting disagreeing parties beforehand)" =/= "fan cards are worse than official cards"

I'll leave the following as an exercise: "Nobody here is so foolish as to believe that you are not trolling"
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #170 on: August 02, 2015, 10:50:54 am »
+3

Horatio, stop stirring up trouble. Here's a fact: This is the number one place where great fan cards for Dominion are to be found on a consistent basis. We've all been playing this game for years upon years. Tell me, why are you correct over many other people who have been playing longer? Sure, it might not be a logical argument on it's own, but it's good circumstantial evidence when everyone else is shooting you down that you MIGHT be wrong. Even if you're not wrong, your moral superiority and constant bickering over something as trivial as an opinion on fan cards is annoying and troublemaking. I've tried to ignore it, but it's getting out of hand. Please think about being kinder.
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #171 on: August 02, 2015, 11:49:05 am »
+1

1. Make blanket claim that fan works are always worse than official/professional works.
[...]
5. Finally claim that his repeated blanket statement was "implicitly stochastic" all along and that he actually doesn't disagree with anybody that the blanket statement was false.
You might wanna stop making things up. I never used the word always or all.

If you do not understand or unwilling to understand that statements of the kind "tomorrow the weather will be bad" means "tomorrow the weather will MOST LIKELY be bad" and not "tomorrow the weather will DEFINITELY" be bad I cannot help you.

If you did not mean always/all, then this response makes no sense:

Dude, there is some really great fan fiction out there and some really terrible published stuff as well.  Having talent for something doesn't mean you'll end up doing it for a living, and doing something for a living does not mean you are any good at it.  And you are underestimating how much testing is done by some of the fan card makers here.
Nope. First, to get actually good at writing, as with anything in else in life, you have to do it constantly over years. This is why people who only do it for a few hours a week in their spare time cannot become good at it.
Second, if you compare fan fiction, something which is derivative and unimaginative, to proper literature you are direly begging to not be taken seriously.
Same with Dominion fan cards. If any of us were good at designing games they would, big surprise, actual design their own game and not do derivative work. Then again I am not really surprised that fan(atic)s overestimate their skills.

If you can't understand this, I can't help you.
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Awaclus

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #172 on: August 02, 2015, 12:07:25 pm »
+1

Please think about being kinder.

Why should he think about being children?
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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GendoIkari

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #173 on: August 02, 2015, 02:25:02 pm »
+3

You (Horatio) said in your second post on this page that you know $8 cards should not be in an official set because they're problematic. And yet you're still fine with that.

That sounds a lot like not wanting to improve your cards.

I don't think I agree with this. Donald has also said that $8 cards should not be in an official set because they're problematic, and yet he created Prince because promos are where you can do stuff you shouldn't do in an official set, not because he didn't feel like improving on Prince.
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Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

XerxesPraelor

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #174 on: August 04, 2015, 08:26:19 pm »
+12

"Professional" means they're paid for playtesting; they aren't. I don't think his group is any larger than mine. If by "more regular", you mean "more frequent", that's true. Again, a lower frequency can be made up by a longer period of development.
and if you haven't published any games, would you mind to point out all the Dominion cards which are based on an idea of yours?
If you pretend to have the same skills for game design as Donald X and a similar playtesting group but have done neither, designed an entire game or just one official card, I gotta call you out on your bullshit.

;)

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13659.msg515361#msg515361
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