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Author Topic: an 8$ card  (Read 55904 times)

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Seprix

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #125 on: July 28, 2015, 10:12:03 am »
0

Hey, I like hating on fan art because sonic fan art is mostly a plague, but I know they're not all like that. :)
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Awaclus

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #126 on: July 28, 2015, 10:16:04 am »
+2

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Seprix

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #127 on: July 28, 2015, 10:22:45 am »
0

sonic fan art

Music?

I've made Kingdom Hearts fan music, but my work is almost always original. Not sure what you mean.
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Awaclus

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #128 on: July 28, 2015, 10:28:09 am »
+2

sonic fan art

Music?

I've made Kingdom Hearts fan music, but my work is almost always original. Not sure what you mean.

Okay then, I'll make the joke funnier by explaining it.

You were talking about sonic fan art. The joke is that "sonic" means "relating to or using sound waves"; thus, "sonic fan art" means "fan art relating to or using sound waves" which probably implies music.
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Seprix

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #129 on: July 28, 2015, 11:37:00 am »
+1

sonic fan art

Music?

I've made Kingdom Hearts fan music, but my work is almost always original. Not sure what you mean.

Okay then, I'll make the joke funnier by explaining it.

You were talking about sonic fan art. The joke is that "sonic" means "relating to or using sound waves"; thus, "sonic fan art" means "fan art relating to or using sound waves" which probably implies music.

That was an awful joke. I'm sorry, I just can't support that one.
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LastFootnote

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #130 on: July 28, 2015, 11:42:49 am »
+1

sonic fan art

Music?

I've made Kingdom Hearts fan music, but my work is almost always original. Not sure what you mean.

Okay then, I'll make the joke funnier by explaining it.

You were talking about sonic fan art. The joke is that "sonic" means "relating to or using sound waves"; thus, "sonic fan art" means "fan art relating to or using sound waves" which probably implies music.

That was an awful joke. I'm sorry, I just can't support that one.

To be fair, you should have capitalized "Sonic" and maybe thrown in "the Hedgehog".
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Seprix

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #131 on: July 28, 2015, 11:44:08 am »
0

sonic fan art

Music?

I've made Kingdom Hearts fan music, but my work is almost always original. Not sure what you mean.

Okay then, I'll make the joke funnier by explaining it.

You were talking about sonic fan art. The joke is that "sonic" means "relating to or using sound waves"; thus, "sonic fan art" means "fan art relating to or using sound waves" which probably implies music.

That was an awful joke. I'm sorry, I just can't support that one.

To be fair, you should have capitalized "Sonic" and maybe thrown in "the Hedgehog".

After Sonic Boom, I refuse to give that bastard any respect.
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Erick648

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #132 on: July 28, 2015, 12:29:29 pm »
+3

I'm not sure I understand this whole argument about whether fan cards can be as good as official cards.  Even assuming, for purposes of argument, that they can't, they should still be made as good as possible.

For what it's worth, Horatio, I don't think anyone here is saying, "Your card isn't as good as the official cards, so it's a bad card and you should feel bad about your skills as a designer for making it."  I think they're just trying to say, "Here are some ways you can make your card closer to the quality level of the official cards."  Even assuming that some people can make fan cards that are as good as the official cards, that doesn't imply that other people should feel insulted if they're given suggestions to make their cards more like the official ones.  If you look at the more established fan sets, there's a lot of criticism made of them, too, and if any fan cards are as good as the official ones, it's only because their designers got a lot of feedback (and did a lot of playtesting) and repeatedly adjusted their cards as problems were identified.  In fact, if you look at the Secret Histories, you'll see that many of the official cards (especially the more unique ones) did not start off being as good as official cards, but needed several iterations of changes to be publishable.
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Asper

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #133 on: July 28, 2015, 12:36:13 pm »
+1

sonic fan art

Music?

I've made Kingdom Hearts fan music, but my work is almost always original. Not sure what you mean.

Okay then, I'll make the joke funnier by explaining it.

You were talking about sonic fan art. The joke is that "sonic" means "relating to or using sound waves"; thus, "sonic fan art" means "fan art relating to or using sound waves" which probably implies music.

That was an awful joke. I'm sorry, I just can't support that one.

To be fair, you should have capitalized "Sonic" and maybe thrown in "the Hedgehog".

After Sonic Boom, I refuse to give that bastard any respect.

I assume this is meant to be humorous, because otherwise it would just be rude. If it is meant to be humorous, let's just say that i can spot worse attempts at gaining a laugh than Awaclus' sound joke.
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Seprix

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #134 on: July 29, 2015, 12:00:49 pm »
0

I was talking about Sonic the Hedgehog.
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Asper

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #135 on: July 29, 2015, 04:16:17 pm »
0

I was talking about Sonic the Hedgehog.

I'm aware. It wouldn't have been funny if you had actually talked about sound. I just felt you overreacted on somebody using part of something you said for a joke. I'm sure Awaclus didn't mean anything bad by it.

Also, you got me curious there: What kind of Kingdom Hearts music did you do?
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Seprix

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #136 on: July 29, 2015, 08:04:15 pm »
+1

I was talking about Sonic the Hedgehog.

I'm aware. It wouldn't have been funny if you had actually talked about sound. I just felt you overreacted on somebody using part of something you said for a joke. I'm sure Awaclus didn't mean anything bad by it.

Also, you got me curious there: What kind of Kingdom Hearts music did you do?

In order from most recent to oldest, so you will see a dropoff in quality.

13th Struggle (KH2)
L'Impeto Oscuro Reject (KH:DDD)
Forze Del Male (KH1)
L'Eminenza Oscura I (KH:DDD) [Currently remaking this one, I love the song but this mix is just soooo bad)
Darkness of the Unknown(KH2)
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #137 on: July 30, 2015, 04:36:11 pm »
0

commissioned fan art done by an artist who didn't even like it
"Commissioned fan art" isn't fan art, it is a job by a pro.
A boardgame which comes to mind is Feld's "Der Name der Rose" (The Name of the Rose). Stefan didn't care much about doing a "Heimlich & Co" variant, it was just a job for him, but the game is actually pretty good.

A short philosophical note, if you are a materialist motivations do not matter. So it is totally irrelevant whether Feld or Michelangelo cared for the particular job they did, what matters is the end result. And as they are both experienced in their field even a job into which they put no heart turns out to be pretty good, respectively in the case of Michelangelo, sublime.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 04:40:20 pm by horatio83 »
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #138 on: July 30, 2015, 04:49:04 pm »
0

For what it's worth, Horatio, I don't think anyone here is saying, "Your card isn't as good as the official cards, so it's a bad card and you should feel bad about your skills as a designer for making it."  I think they're just trying to say, "Here are some ways you can make your card closer to the quality level of the official cards."
My card is pretty whacky (gee, it is an 8$ card which Donald X did not do for official sets for very good reasons) and I have no issues with folks who do not like 8$ vanilla cards. I also do not mind criticism, there are some pretty good posts in this thread which helped me to understand the card better. Naturally I do not agree with every form of criticism, there are also some fairly ridiculous posts in here which are ignorant of basic stuff and naturally I do strive to improve my card.

But unlike some other folks I seem to be more aware of the natural limitations of fan cards in general and an 8$ in particular.

I still have no idea why my point about fan cards being worse than official cards, the humble and commonsensical notion that fans do not devote as much time into designing and playtesting as game designers who do it for a living (and probably have a larger, more regular and more professional playtesting group), pissed off so many people.
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #139 on: July 30, 2015, 05:03:03 pm »
+2

I still have no idea why my point about fan cards being worse than official cards, the humble and commonsensical notion that fans do not devote as much time into designing and playtesting as game designers who do it for a living (and probably have a larger, more regular and more professional playtesting group), pissed off so many people.

It's because you're wrong. Adventures took about six months to make. Two years of dedicated spare-time design could easily be equal to six months of full-time design. It takes longer to do these things your off-hours, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

I can tell you right now that Donald doesn't have a large or professional playtesting group. "Professional" means they're paid for playtesting; they aren't. I don't think his group is any larger than mine. If by "more regular", you mean "more frequent", that's true. Again, a lower frequency can be made up by a longer period of development.
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #140 on: July 30, 2015, 05:10:22 pm »
0

"Professional" means they're paid for playtesting; they aren't. I don't think his group is any larger than mine. If by "more regular", you mean "more frequent", that's true. Again, a lower frequency can be made up by a longer period of development.
Nope. Nobody pays playtesters. Professional means having some boardgamers with stamina and an analytical mind (there is a reason the top two German boardgamer designers, Uwe and Stefan, have a technical-mathematical background) in your group. Would you mind to point out the games you published which were tested with your playtesting group? And if you haven't published any games, would you mind to point out all the Dominion cards which are based on an idea of yours?
If you pretend to have the same skills for game design as Donald X and a similar playtesting group but have done neither, designed an entire game or just one official card, I gotta call you out on your bullshit.

There is nothing wrong with aspiring to be a game designer. As long as one doesn't lose one's humility and honesty while one is still in the process of becoming one ...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 05:12:29 pm by horatio83 »
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #141 on: July 30, 2015, 05:17:23 pm »
+3

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Seprix

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #142 on: July 30, 2015, 06:27:29 pm »
+1

"Professional" means they're paid for playtesting; they aren't. I don't think his group is any larger than mine. If by "more regular", you mean "more frequent", that's true. Again, a lower frequency can be made up by a longer period of development.
Nope. Nobody pays playtesters. Professional means having some boardgamers with stamina and an analytical mind (there is a reason the top two German boardgamer designers, Uwe and Stefan, have a technical-mathematical background) in your group. Would you mind to point out the games you published which were tested with your playtesting group? And if you haven't published any games, would you mind to point out all the Dominion cards which are based on an idea of yours?
If you pretend to have the same skills for game design as Donald X and a similar playtesting group but have done neither, designed an entire game or just one official card, I gotta call you out on your bullshit.

There is nothing wrong with aspiring to be a game designer. As long as one doesn't lose one's humility and honesty while one is still in the process of becoming one ...

Designing cards for an established game takes fractions of the skill and time required to create the actual game.
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #143 on: July 30, 2015, 07:39:41 pm »
+1

commissioned fan art done by an artist who didn't even like it
"Commissioned fan art" isn't fan art, it is a job by a pro.

Nope.  It's fan art because it's not the artist's original design.  It is based on the Bible, so it is by definition Biblical fan art.  You can find an artist and commission other fan art too.

A boardgame which comes to mind is Feld's "Der Name der Rose" (The Name of the Rose). Stefan didn't care much about doing a "Heimlich & Co" variant, it was just a job for him, but the game is actually pretty good.

A short philosophical note, if you are a materialist motivations do not matter. So it is totally irrelevant whether Feld or Michelangelo cared for the particular job they did, what matters is the end result. And as they are both experienced in their field even a job into which they put no heart turns out to be pretty good, respectively in the case of Michelangelo, sublime.

Sure.  That's my point.  Michelangelo's end product was fantastic and a lasting testament to human ability.  And it was fan art.

I still have no idea why my point about fan cards being worse than official cards, the humble and commonsensical notion that fans do not devote as much time into designing and playtesting as game designers who do it for a living (and probably have a larger, more regular and more professional playtesting group), pissed off so many people.

I have to assume at this point that you are just trolling.  You are repeatedly making this falacious argument (some form of appeal to authority, I am not sure) and are ignoring every post that explains your error.

The average fan card is worse than the average official card.  Nobody disputes that.  But there ARE fan cards that are as good as or even better than official cards.  Your blanket statements are what people are disagreeing with.  There are many great fan works.

Your argument is like saying that amateur athletes are always less skilled than professional athletes.
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Ghacob

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #144 on: July 30, 2015, 11:25:15 pm »
+1

commissioned fan art done by an artist who didn't even like it
"Commissioned fan art" isn't fan art, it is a job by a pro.
Hey, would anyone like to become a professional artist today? I'll give anyone that draws me a "really good" bucket of water the 42 cents left in my debit/giftcard thing
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Seprix

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #145 on: July 30, 2015, 11:28:33 pm »
+1

commissioned fan art done by an artist who didn't even like it
"Commissioned fan art" isn't fan art, it is a job by a pro.
Hey, would anyone like to become a professional artist today? I'll give anyone that draws me a "really good" bucket of water the 42 cents left in my debit/giftcard thing

How about I draw the mic you just dropped instead?

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XerxesPraelor

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #146 on: July 31, 2015, 11:47:01 am »
+1

Horatio and you guys agree that:

-The average fan card is worse than the average official card
-Some fan cards are better than some official cards

What fact do you disagree about? Repeating those two things back and forth isn't going to help.

Personally, I think Horatio is saying:
-it's impossible as a non-published designer to consistently design cards approximately as good as official ones.

Horatio, is that correct?
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Asper

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #147 on: July 31, 2015, 12:30:38 pm »
+2

I got the impression he means that no fan card can possibly be as good as the average official card. Some might be as good or better than the worst (Scout, Rebuild), but never as good as the average. To me he seemed to consider fan cards inherently incapable of being good, or generally, fans inherently incapable of creating something equally good to official works.
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #148 on: July 31, 2015, 12:49:04 pm »
+1

Horatio and you guys agree that:

-The average fan card is worse than the average official card
-Some fan cards are better than some official cards

Where do you see Horatio agreeing with the second point?  That's where the disagreement is.   I may have missed it, but most statements I see from him are blanket "fan work always worse than official".
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 12:51:08 pm by eHalcyon »
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #149 on: July 31, 2015, 10:48:28 pm »
0

I'm serious about the bucket of water, by the way. If you're working for minimum wage, someone should be able to spend about 5 minutes and make it work their while. I have the next 12 hours or so until I leave on vacation, though, so be quick.
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