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Author Topic: an 8$ card  (Read 56126 times)

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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #100 on: July 22, 2015, 12:24:23 pm »
0

There is great fan fiction.

...and there is bad fan fiction...

I never said there wasn't.

And when it's bad... It's really really bad...

Yeah, sure.  I gave 50 Shades as an example right in that post. :P
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Seprix

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #101 on: July 22, 2015, 12:32:56 pm »
0

There is great fan fiction.

...and there is bad fan fiction...

I never said there wasn't.

And when it's bad... It's really really bad...

Yeah, sure.  I gave 50 Shades as an example right in that post. :P

http://fanfiction.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_fan_fictions_considered_the_worst

I've spent days reading awful fanfiction. It's appeal is in that it's awful.
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Ghacob

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #102 on: July 23, 2015, 01:41:10 am »
+4

Nope.

This is my favorite (most hated) trait about you. You'll sit and hear people try to speak reason to you, and instead of actually considering hmmm, maybe this person has something insightful to say. I might be able to learn from them you decide to dismiss them immediately

If it wasn't for injokes I'm not sure how long an argument consisted of you vs. f.DS would have lasted

...

As for "on topic" discussion, I remember once reading a piece of My Little Pony fanfiction that involved dutch ovens as the main plotpoint, nay the entire story even
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Seprix

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #103 on: July 23, 2015, 10:11:44 am »
+3

Nope.

This is my favorite (most hated) trait about you. You'll sit and hear people try to speak reason to you, and instead of actually considering hmmm, maybe this person has something insightful to say. I might be able to learn from them you decide to dismiss them immediately

If it wasn't for injokes I'm not sure how long an argument consisted of you vs. f.DS would have lasted

...

As for "on topic" discussion, I remember once reading a piece of My Little Pony fanfiction that involved dutch ovens as the main plotpoint, nay the entire story even

Sure, there's good fan fiction. But get ready for an amazing pun...

It's canon fodder...
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Asper

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #104 on: July 23, 2015, 10:19:07 am »
0

There is great fan fiction.

...and there is bad fan fiction...

It's not bad. It's art. Beautiful absurdist art.
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Seprix

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #105 on: July 23, 2015, 10:35:21 am »
0

There is great fan fiction.

...and there is bad fan fiction...

It's not bad. It's art. Beautiful absurdist art.

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Asper

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #106 on: July 23, 2015, 06:30:39 pm »
0

There is great fan fiction.

...and there is bad fan fiction...

It's not bad. It's art. Beautiful absurdist art.

[---]

A witty and/or slightly gross image proves nothing.
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #107 on: July 24, 2015, 05:42:55 am »
0

Getting published and becoming a commercial success requires more than just skilled writing and creativity.  Luck is a major factor, as is perseverance and knowing the right people.  Marketing savvy can help too.  There are certainly talented writers who aren't published because they lack in other departments.  There are bad writers who yet succeed because of those other things.  Likewise for game designers.  Sometimes these talented people are content not to seek out commercial validation, and that doesn't diminish their ability at all.
Getting published and becoming a commercial success requires more than just skilled writing and creativity.  Luck is a major factor, as is perseverance and knowing the right people.  Marketing savvy can help too.  There are certainly talented writers who aren't published because they lack in other departments.  There are bad writers who yet succeed because of those other things.  Likewise for game designers.  Sometimes these talented people are content not to seek out commercial validation, and that doesn't diminish their ability at all.

In my gaming club there are two game designers. One is a well-known author who has produced numerous games and the other one never published a game. Based on his stories it seems to have mainly been due to bad luck / bad timing but then again I seriously doubt that this games (never played one of his prototypes so it is just guesswork) are better than those of the guy who has published plenty of games.

Anyway, my original point was that official cards are better than fan cards and I stand by this. Even LastFootnote admitted that many official cards got a lot of playtesting. More time, more folks to play with it, the abilities of the game designer, well, if anybody here thinks he can top that he is ludicrous. Individual fan cards (they are mostly Peddler, Village or Lab variant) can of course be as good as existing cards .



Quote
I don't think I've called it overpowered, at least not seriously so.  I've just pointed out that it was more powerful than Grand Market while effectively costing less.  If GM didn't exist, I would have just waited to hear the results from testing.

Does that new text even fit on a card?  I think it's over-complicating what was supposed to br a simple design.  It sounds OK for testing, but it doesn't seem worthwhile.
Probably gotta use a smaller font and skip the long line which is used to seperate "When you gain this .." from the normal text. My goal is obviously not make the card messy but just to balance it (I don't think that GM's copper restriction would make much sense for an 8 card which is mostly buyed in heavy-trashing games and even if it would make sense I wouldn't wanna copy it).
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 05:44:53 am by horatio83 »
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #108 on: July 24, 2015, 05:23:34 pm »
+1

In my gaming club there are two game designers. One is a well-known author who has produced numerous games and the other one never published a game. Based on his stories it seems to have mainly been due to bad luck / bad timing but then again I seriously doubt that this games (never played one of his prototypes so it is just guesswork) are better than those of the guy who has published plenty of games.

How is that relevant?  Yes, some people don't get published because their games suck.  There are also good designers who don't get published due to lack of opportunity or even lack of desire (see: various free, well-reviewed PnP games), and there are also published games that are terrible.

I really don't know what you're trying to say with the example, but even if it were applicable, the plural of anecdote is not data.  And you admit that you haven't even played his prototypes, so it's an anecdote without any basis whatsoever.   ???
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #109 on: July 25, 2015, 12:20:36 pm »
0

In my gaming club there are two game designers. One is a well-known author who has produced numerous games and the other one never published a game. Based on his stories it seems to have mainly been due to bad luck / bad timing but then again I seriously doubt that this games (never played one of his prototypes so it is just guesswork) are better than those of the guy who has published plenty of games.

How is that relevant?  Yes, some people don't get published because their games suck.  There are also good designers who don't get published due to lack of opportunity or even lack of desire (see: various free, well-reviewed PnP games), and there are also published games that are terrible.

I really don't know what you're trying to say with the example, but even if it were applicable, the plural of anecdote is not data.  And you admit that you haven't even played his prototypes, so it's an anecdote without any basis whatsoever.   ???
Correlation, my point is that folks who have actually published a game are more likely to be good at it than folks who have not. Now I am the last person on this planet who wants to argue that commercial success and artistic quality go hand in hand, otherwise there would be more Criterion edition DVDs of Kurosawa and Bergman movies being sold than Michael Bay movie DVDs. Even in the boardgaming world bad games like Monopoly, Risk and even Settlers (which was a seminal game 20 years ago but nowadays is far too random and lacks decision density) would not sell as well as they do and we all know a number of great boardgames which are not very well-known because they are produced by a small published or because somehow news about ths particular good did not spread.

But most of the time we gamers are fairly good ad judging quality and great games get produced, published and bought even years later while the crappy ones die in development or after they are thrown onto the market.
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Awaclus

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #110 on: July 25, 2015, 01:04:23 pm »
+3

Correlation, my point is that folks who have actually published a game are more likely to be good at it than folks who have not.

I wouldn't really say that. They are less likely to be completely awful at it, but there are a lot of factors that lead to games getting or not getting published that have nothing to do with how good the game is. A publisher might not want to work with a designer who is completely clueless about everything, which is why they might turn down a great game with an unprofessional presentation, or there might be a newly popular genre that the publisher would like to do but hasn't done yet, which is why they might publish a mediocre game of that genre.
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Ghacob

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #111 on: July 25, 2015, 11:10:22 pm »
0

In my gaming club there are two game designers.
the plural of anecdote is not data.
Correlation
Correlation does not imply causation
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #112 on: July 27, 2015, 12:31:55 pm »
0

In my gaming club there are two game designers.
the plural of anecdote is not data.
Correlation
Correlation does not imply causation
It is not like I did not use the word correlation deliberately so thanks for telling me what I already know.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 12:33:24 pm by horatio83 »
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Asper

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #113 on: July 27, 2015, 01:30:30 pm »
+6

Your argument still is based on a fallacy. Even assuming all successful board game designers were good at game design (which is disputable), you can't deduce that all people who are not successful board game designers were not. That's like saying: All birds lay eggs, so if something is not a bird, it can't lay eggs. Sorry, fish, platypus and lizard.

So you say, no, i didn't deduce that, i never said that. But well, you made a statement about all fans, at least all fans of dominion, and implied they can not posssibly compete. Obviously you don't know every Dominion fan personally, so the only way you could justify a statement about all of them would be by forcing a logical conclusion. And your "logic" is, they aren't board game designers, they know nothing about boardgames. Your logical conclusion isn't there. Instead you serve us a bundle of anecdotes, unsupported claims, observations that lack a test group (So you played games by published designers and now think you can talk about games by unpublished designers?), and of course, the belief that everyone will do all the jobs he's good at throughout his live, because humans have unlimited time and never have to choose which path to go.

And all of that for what? To defend a fan card? Boy, they are not worth it. I have made plenty of bad fan cards, and if people pointed out why they were bad, of course i struggled to improve them, but sooner or later you have to see it how it is and, if there's no solution, let go. Unless of course you think that you don't have to try to make them as good as possible. In that case, you shouldn't be surprised if they turn out as bad as you predicted, though.
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #114 on: July 27, 2015, 02:08:24 pm »
0

And all of that for what? To defend a fan card? Boy, they are not worth it. I have made plenty of bad fan cards, and if people pointed out why they were bad, of course i struggled to improve them, but sooner or later you have to see it how it is and, if there's no solution, let go. Unless of course you think that you don't have to try to make them as good as possible. In that case, you shouldn't be surprised if they turn out as bad as you predicted, though.
How about reading what I actually wrote before pulling things out of your ass?

Quote
Donald is totally right that there should be no 8$ card in a normal Dominion set, they are just too wacky. But then again nobody here is so arrogant as to assume that some stupid fan cards can as good as official cards.

So contrary to your claims I neither defended my card nor implied that I do try to make it as good as possible. I rather acknowledged the natural limitations of my very card as I went for a price which is considered to be narrow by Donald X (for the reasons I outlined in the very same post) and thus unusable for official cards by the author. Gee, that's the very 101 of my card and it is even emphasized in the title of the thread.

If I pissed off some fan card designers who arrogantly assume that their cards are as good as official ones via claiming something commonsensical, that fan cards are worse than official cards, so be it. You also might wanna get off your "logic" train, I never said that all fan cards are worse than all official cards. Pretty obvious that there quite some bad official cards which are easily outmatched by the best fan cards.

If you actually read what I wrote instead of assuming things you would know that I like fan cards and have so far printed about 40 (out of hundreds or thousands; without wanting to insult anybody the majority of cards and ideas here, including mine, are utter crap) of them. Not that you would actually need to read anything, the  very fact that I post in the fan cards section of this forum should suffice for you to know that if I am biased in any way it is towards and not against fan cards. But unlike you I seem to be aware of their natural limitations.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 02:18:42 pm by horatio83 »
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #115 on: July 27, 2015, 02:29:44 pm »
+2

It is not arrogant to say that fan cards can be as good as official cards.  We're not naming specific fan cards or touting our own work, as you seem to be assuming.  I don't even have a fan expansion to tout.  There are some really well-designed fan cards and there are some not-great official cards, including at least one that Donald says would have changed or dropped if issues had been discovered sooner.

Your common sense here is extremely nonsensical.  Being "official" in no way guarantees higher quality in games, prose, art, etc.  That's what this whole recent stretch of conversation has been about, and it is astounding how you just ignore all the examples that counter your sweeping generalizations and groundless assumptions.
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #116 on: July 27, 2015, 02:40:25 pm »
0

Examples? Like 50 Shades of Grey and Shakespeare? Give me a break.

I recently played a fan-designed Descent campaign with some friends. I really liked it and so far it seems to be decently balanced but the natural caveat was that it is a FAN campaign (i.e. underdesigned, undertested and not made by the guy who most likely has the best insight into this game, the game designer) so it is per se MOST LIKELY worse than an official campaign. We have been presently surprised but it was MORE LIKELY that the fan campaign would have been worse than an official one.

Same here. Pick out a random fan card and a random official card and it is highly likely that a) the fan card does not even have art and b) it is fundamentally worse than the official card. And this is the best place for Dominion fan cards, if you just surf the net you will find aweful stuff like fan cards that are oblivious of official cards and thus clearly better or worse (more often better) than existing cards.

I also often play with a Race for the Galaxy fan expansion so you really might wanna think twice before you claim that somebody who is far more into fan-made stuff than the average boardgamer is out on a crusade against fan designs.

Whether you like it or not, claiming that fan cards are worse than official cards would be nowhere on this planet a controversial statement. It is just a dose of realism which some fan(atic)s in here seem to be unable to tolerate.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 02:45:37 pm by horatio83 »
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LastFootnote

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #117 on: July 27, 2015, 02:49:26 pm »
+7

Yes, on average, fan cards are worse than official cards. This is because most fan cards are untested, uninteresting, or both. I don't think anybody here is arguing that the average fan card is better than the average official card.

Some fan cards are as good as official cards. You just said this in a post.

Explain to me how it is "arrogant" for a card designer to try to make cards that are as good as the official cards.

P.S. You may want to dial the aggression back a bit, horatio83. You're starting to act like the horatio83 on Dominion Online!
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Asper

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #118 on: July 27, 2015, 02:50:16 pm »
+1

Examples? Like 50 Shades of Grey and Shakespeare? Give me a break.

I recently played a fan-designed Descent campaign with some friends. I really liked it and so far it seems to be decently balanced but the natural caveat was that it is a FAN campaign so it is MOST LIKELY worse than an official campaign. We have been presently surprised but it was MORE LIKELY that the fan campaign would have been worse than an official one.

Same here. Pick out a random fan card and a random official card and it is highly likely that a) the fan card does not even have art and b) it is fundamentally worse than the official card. And this is the best place for Dominion fan cards, if you just surf the net you will find aweful stuff like fan cards that are oblivious of official cards and thus clearly better or worse (more often better) than existing cards.

So whether you like it or not, claiming that fan cards are worse than official cards would be nowhere on this planet a controversial statement. But, alas, fans are often fans in the literal sense.

"The average element in A is worse than the average element in B" =/= "Every element in A is worse than the average element in B"
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #119 on: July 27, 2015, 02:50:48 pm »
+2

And Harry Potter, and Eragon,  and most Renaissance Art.

The difference is that you are making a sweeping generalization which is clearly false.  Are fan cards more likely to be worse?  Sure, but that's because fan cards are often just initial ideas that haven't been tested or refined whereas official cards are highly developed.  If you take a random card from, say, LastFootnote's fan expansion, I have confidence that it can match official cards in quality.

Seriously though.  Renaissance art is just fan art of the Bible.
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #120 on: July 27, 2015, 02:54:40 pm »
+2

Seriously though.  Renaissance art is just fan art of the Bible.

And bad fan art at that. Winged angels? Pah.
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Awaclus

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #121 on: July 27, 2015, 02:59:13 pm »
+3

Sure, the average fan card is not very good while the average official card is. I don't think this means that you should strive to make average fan cards.
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Ghacob

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #122 on: July 27, 2015, 04:47:07 pm »
0

Examples? Like 50 Shades of Grey and Shakespeare? Give me a break.
I'm not quite sure what you're implying here
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #123 on: July 28, 2015, 02:11:23 am »
0

Are fan cards more likely to be worse?  Sure, but that's because fan cards are often just initial ideas that haven't been tested or refined whereas official cards are highly developed.
That's it. Somebody here said who was involved in the process said that many Dominion cards got playtested around 100 times. It is fairly natural that fan cards are underdeveloped relative to official cards. As I already said, hyperobvious, natural stuff and not controversial anywhere besides among pissed off fans. :D


Quote
Seriously though.  Renaissance art is just fan art of the Bible.
Not that I am not used to preposterous arguments by you but claiming that guys like Michelangelo were "fan artists" tops it all.
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #124 on: July 28, 2015, 03:14:24 am »
+4

Are fan cards more likely to be worse?  Sure, but that's because fan cards are often just initial ideas that haven't been tested or refined whereas official cards are highly developed.
That's it. Somebody here said who was involved in the process said that many Dominion cards got playtested around 100 times. It is fairly natural that fan cards are underdeveloped relative to official cards. As I already said, hyperobvious, natural stuff and not controversial anywhere besides among pissed off fans. :D

Are you purposefully missing the point?

Quote
Seriously though.  Renaissance art is just fan art of the Bible.
Not that I am not used to preposterous arguments by you but claiming that guys like Michelangelo were "fan artists" tops it all.

If you know anything about art history, you know that this is true.  Most of that work is not original work but literally fan art of the Bible.  If you think that this is pejorative, then that's your own problem.  There's nothing wrong with being fan art.  The fact is, Michelangelo didn't even like most of the stuff for which he is famous.  Those were merely commissioned works from the Church that he took on to pay the bills.  Stuff like the Sistine Chapel was commissioned fan art done by an artist who didn't even like it.  This is historical fact.
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