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Author Topic: an 8$ card  (Read 55918 times)

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XerxesPraelor

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2015, 12:00:02 am »
0

Only in a few exact situations. It's generally much easier to hit 6 - you just need two golds or three silvers, and action cards help out there too.
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2015, 01:07:02 am »
0

The problem with that is that you rarely hit 10 in non-Platinum games. I think that I am going for "When you gain this, each other player + 1VP token".

Just in case you want to do something that hasn't been done before, giving free VP on gain was done before. I don't know about others, but i did it rather recently.

Either way, i'm not exactly a fan of King, but i'm not sure it needs to be nerfed. 8$ IS a very high opportunity cost.
I wasn't aware of that. I only vaguely had your VP token gainer cantrip with the self copper spamming vaguely in mind when I designed King.
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2015, 01:43:23 am »
+2

Only in a few exact situations. It's generally much easier to hit 6 - you just need two golds or three silvers, and action cards help out there too.

You also need them to line up, and in the kind of deck that really appreciates GM, 3 Silver is terrible.  I find that the general case is that hitting $8 is much easier.  I can do that earlier and with more consistency than reaching $6 without Copper.  You need the exact situation (usually heavy trashing) to make GM easier to get.  A simple way to see this is that when you buy GM, you often also have a couple of Copper held back in hand which you could have played for Province anyway, or you hit $8+ even without Copper.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 01:44:30 am by eHalcyon »
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2015, 01:50:42 am »
0

Only in a few exact situations. It's generally much easier to hit 6 - you just need two golds or three silvers, and action cards help out there too.

You also need them to line up, and in the kind of deck that really appreciates GM, 3 Silver is terrible.  I find that the general case is that hitting $8 is much easier.  I can do that earlier and with more consistency than reaching $6 without Copper.  You need the exact situation (usually heavy trashing) to make GM easier to get.  A simple way to see this is that when you buy GM, you often also have a couple of Copper held back in hand which you could have played for Province anyway, or you hit $8+ even without Copper.
I do not directly disagree with you but roll with Donald's Grand Market precursor (+1 card, +1 action, +2 coins) that cost 7. No idea how much he playtested it and whether it was balanced at 7 but I doubt that this card would have been worth 8. And even with the extra buy it probably would not have been worth 8 so Grand Market without the copper clause is probably a good 7 card.
Let's also not forget that reaching the first Grand Market is hard but after you have reached this threshold it becomes much easier to buy further Grand Markets. This would not be the case if the card did cost 8.
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2015, 02:27:38 am »
0

Only in a few exact situations. It's generally much easier to hit 6 - you just need two golds or three silvers, and action cards help out there too.

You also need them to line up, and in the kind of deck that really appreciates GM, 3 Silver is terrible.  I find that the general case is that hitting $8 is much easier.  I can do that earlier and with more consistency than reaching $6 without Copper.  You need the exact situation (usually heavy trashing) to make GM easier to get.  A simple way to see this is that when you buy GM, you often also have a couple of Copper held back in hand which you could have played for Province anyway, or you hit $8+ even without Copper.
I do not directly disagree with you but roll with Donald's Grand Market precursor (+1 card, +1 action, +2 coins) that cost 7. No idea how much he playtested it and whether it was balanced at 7 but I doubt that this card would have been worth 8. And even with the extra buy it probably would not have been worth 8 so Grand Market without the copper clause is probably a good 7 card.
Let's also not forget that reaching the first Grand Market is hard but after you have reached this threshold it becomes much easier to buy further Grand Markets. This would not be the case if the card did cost 8.

Grand Market without the copper clause is an extremely powerful $7 card and would be great at $8 too.  And getting the first GM would still make it easier to get more even if the card costs $8 since it always increases your money density.

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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2015, 04:07:35 am »
0

I think that GM without the buy is balanced at 7 and with the buy a good 7 card. But it is certainly not worth 8. I agree that in a Colony game you might be sometimes willing to pay 8 for a GM but certainly not in a Province game.

Ignoring TR/KC, GM is just a double Peddler with an extra buy and buying two Peddlers for 4 (or Peddler variants like Tournament) is easier than buying one double Peddler for 8.  The benefits of a card are not linear but convex in the costs, i.e. an 8 card must be worth more than two 4 cards (a simple example: unless there is Feudum on the board, one gold is virtually always better than two silvers).
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faust

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2015, 05:42:19 am »
0

I think that GM without the buy is balanced at 7 and with the buy a good 7 card. But it is certainly not worth 8. I agree that in a Colony game you might be sometimes willing to pay 8 for a GM but certainly not in a Province game.

Ignoring TR/KC, GM is just a double Peddler with an extra buy and buying two Peddlers for 4 (or Peddler variants like Tournament) is easier than buying one double Peddler for 8.  The benefits of a card are not linear but convex in the costs, i.e. an 8 card must be worth more than two 4 cards (a simple example: unless there is Feudum on the board, one gold is virtually always better than two silvers).

The situation where you have $8, but two Coppers, and decide not to play the Coppers to get GM happens quite frequently. This alone shows that GM would be okay at $8. Not great probably, but okay.

Your example doesn't really help the case you're trying to make; on the contrary. You argue that playing GM=playing two Peddlers, and that that would not be good enough. Then you compare with Gold/Silver. But clearly playing Gold<playing two Silvers, so that comparison doesn't work at all.
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2015, 06:29:13 am »
0

Your example doesn't really help the case you're trying to make; on the contrary. You argue that playing GM=playing two Peddlers, and that that would not be good enough. Then you compare with Gold/Silver. But clearly playing Gold<playing two Silvers, so that comparison doesn't work at all.
Nope. Peddlers are cantrips and except for the extra buy two peddlers are nearly equivalent to one GM (for convexity reasons it is of course more useful to have the GM as you get the two coins during one move whereas the Peddlers might be spread over several turns.)
Treasure cards on the other hand are not cantrips which is which folks who have 6 coins and 2 buys rarely buy 2 silver instead of a Gold.

I hate to be blunt but deck composition and cost convexity are fairly fundamental issues and it is tedious to explain the hyperobvious.
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Asper

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2015, 06:45:29 am »
+2

I'm revisig my statement from earlier. King is too automatic. Play a single King six times, and you are having a Province that doesn't clog your deck, actively helps you getting more of them, and sets up a megaturn. From there on it's strictly better, but before its bonuses make it at least equal to Province.

The problem with that is that you rarely hit 10 in non-Platinum games. I think that I am going for "When you gain this, each other player + 1VP token".

Just in case you want to do something that hasn't been done before, giving free VP on gain was done before. I don't know about others, but i did it rather recently.

Either way, i'm not exactly a fan of King, but i'm not sure it needs to be nerfed. 8$ IS a very high opportunity cost.
I wasn't aware of that. I only vaguely had your VP token gainer cantrip with the self copper spamming vaguely in mind when I designed King.

Totally fine, i'm not claiming copyright or something. It was more about, if you want something only your card does, consider this. I can live with sharing the penalty.
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2015, 07:45:34 am »
0

I'm revisig my statement from earlier. King is too automatic. Play a single King six times, and you are having a Province that doesn't clog your deck, actively helps you getting more of them, and sets up a megaturn. From there on it's strictly better, but before its bonuses make it at least equal to Province.
You forgot to add that this is only likely to happen in a Colony game with trashing. Here 6 VPs are not that significant so the card is hardly an automatic buy (given that there is always Platinum at 9 and perhaps some good 6/7 Prosperity cards in the deck).
In a Province game with trashing it takes quite some time until you reach 8$ so I doubt that you could play a king 6 times.

Goons probably provide on average more VPs (as you can buy it earlier and as the extra buys happen more often than King+TR/KC).

Anyway, I am gonna leave the card as it is and playtest once it is printed.
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GendoIkari

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2015, 08:59:57 am »
+1

I think that GM without the buy is balanced at 7 and with the buy a good 7 card. But it is certainly not worth 8. I agree that in a Colony game you might be sometimes willing to pay 8 for a GM but certainly not in a Province game.

Ignoring TR/KC, GM is just a double Peddler with an extra buy and buying two Peddlers for 4 (or Peddler variants like Tournament) is easier than buying one double Peddler for 8.  The benefits of a card are not linear but convex in the costs, i.e. an 8 card must be worth more than two 4 cards (a simple example: unless there is Feudum on the board, one gold is virtually always better than two silvers).

The situation where you have $8, but two Coppers, and decide not to play the Coppers to get GM happens quite frequently. This alone shows that GM would be okay at $8. Not great probably, but okay.

No, GM at $8 would be much stronger I think. You could buy one much earlier with 2 Silvers and 4 Coppers, etc.
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2015, 09:11:54 am »
0

No, GM at $8 would be much stronger I think. You could buy one much earlier with 2 Silvers and 4 Coppers, etc.

You would still want to get rid of most of your Coppers before getting a Grand Market, though.
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2015, 01:31:19 pm »
+1

I think that GM without the buy is balanced at 7 and with the buy a good 7 card. But it is certainly not worth 8. I agree that in a Colony game you might be sometimes willing to pay 8 for a GM but certainly not in a Province game.

Ignoring TR/KC, GM is just a double Peddler with an extra buy and buying two Peddlers for 4 (or Peddler variants like Tournament) is easier than buying one double Peddler for 8.  The benefits of a card are not linear but convex in the costs, i.e. an 8 card must be worth more than two 4 cards (a simple example: unless there is Feudum on the board, one gold is virtually always better than two silvers).

You continue to ignore that it is often a good idea to buy GM for $8 (i.e. with $6 and 2 Coppers in hand).  GM is better than two Peddlers because of that +Buy.  Buying two $4 cards isn't necessarily easier than buying one $8 card because the two cards also requires one extra Buy.  Your Gold/Silver example isn't really relevant.  Gold is often better than 2 Silver because of space requirements, but if you are overdrawing your deck then the 2 Silvers would be better... which doesn't really relate to the discussion anyway. 

Costs don't work that way in Dominion anyway.  There is no concept of "convexity" in the costs.  There isn't a magic formula to pricing cards.  Chapel costs only $2 despite being one of the most powerful cards in the game.

Here are the points:

1. King is almost strictly better than Grand Market.
2. $8 is usually easier to achieve than $6 without Copper.

I don't think you disagree with either point, so I'm not sure what your argument is.  Are you suggesting that GM is undercosted?  That it's OK for King to be easier to buy despite being better?

Edit:

To be clear, I am not sure if it is too strong for $8; I think it's on the line and needs testing to tell.  My criticism is that is is near strictly better than GM and cheaper too.  It's like how the original Dungeon (Lab, discard 1) was too strong for $4 but couldn't be $5 because Lab exists.  I contend that King as it is should not exist because of Grand Market.  My recommendation would be to increase the cost to $9 or to nerf it somehow.  Remove the +$1 or +1 Buy, or maybe both.  With both gone, I think it would still be very viable at $8.  Cantrip coin token and VP still sounds amazing.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 01:46:53 pm by eHalcyon »
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2015, 01:54:37 pm »
0

Card benefits are convex in the costs. Just take a look at the basic Treasure and Victory cards. And in the case of action cards it is the same. A deck with 5 2$ cards is certainy worse than a deck with 2 5$ cards.

Making King a 9$ card would be nonsensical as it would rarely be bought instead of Platinum. It is pretty difficult to reach a Colony with one or two Kings whereas it is much easier with one or two Platinums.
And in a Province game you rarely wanna buy an action card instead of Province unless it is early in the game. If you had ever played a game with Prince you would be aware of this.

About the proper worth of GM without the copper restriction, it is probably slightly above 7 as Donald priced it at 7 without the extra buy during development. It surely isn't 8.

Your claim that a +1 card, +1 action, +1 VP token, +1 coin token, is worth 8 shows that you have not really thought about the issue.
Your hypothetical 8$ card is just a Baker with +1 VP token. The latter hardly justifies a price increase of 3 given that Monument has a price increase of 2 (assuming that a hypothetical terminal silver is worth 2, Duchess is the benchmark for this claim).

An average King will most likely lead to fewer VPs than an average Goon or Bishop.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 01:59:31 pm by horatio83 »
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liopoil

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2015, 02:57:08 pm »
+2

An $8 card that doesn't start with P is unacceptable, please revise immediately.
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2015, 04:10:57 pm »
+1

Card benefits are convex in the costs. Just take a look at the basic Treasure and Victory cards. And in the case of action cards it is the same. A deck with 5 2$ cards is certainy worse than a deck with 2 5$ cards.

A deck with 5 Fool's Golds is better than a deck with 2 Outposts.

Making King a 9$ card would be nonsensical as it would rarely be bought instead of Platinum. It is pretty difficult to reach a Colony with one or two Kings whereas it is much easier with one or two Platinums.
And in a Province game you rarely wanna buy an action card instead of Province unless it is early in the game. If you had ever played a game with Prince you would be aware of this.

King would be bought at $9.  If Herbalist can be bought at $11, King can certainly be bought at $9.  You are underestimating the value of +Buy and coin tokens. 

It can definitely be worthwhile to buy an action card over a Province in the mid-game, depending on the deck-type.  Mega-turn strategies don't green until the very last turn, and many strong engines will not green until late.

About the proper worth of GM without the copper restriction, it is probably slightly above 7 as Donald priced it at 7 without the extra buy during development. It surely isn't 8.

GM is easily worth $8 and is often bought with $8 in hand.  Seriously.  The $7 buyless version you are talking about is not relevant because it's from an early version in development and Donald made no comment about its balance at that time.  A later version had +Buy and no Copper clause at $7.  It didn't stay that way.

Your claim that a +1 card, +1 action, +1 VP token, +1 coin token, is worth 8 shows that you have not really thought about the issue.
Your hypothetical 8$ card is just a Baker with +1 VP token. The latter hardly justifies a price increase of 3 given that Monument has a price increase of 2 (assuming that a hypothetical terminal silver is worth 2, Duchess is the benchmark for this claim).

Yes the hypothetical card is Baker with a VP token.  I did think about that.  I think it's a good starting point because a cantrip VP token card is powerful and dangerous.  The price increase of Monument over Duchess has no bearing here.  Those are terminals and these are cantrips.  Your comparison shows that you don't understand how cards are priced.  Smithy is $2 increase over Moat for just +1 card more, but Lab is $3 up over Great Hall.

Maybe this hypothetical card really would be too weak for $8.  If so, add back in one thing or the other, or put it at $7.  Or start testing there.  King with all the bonuses is almost certainly too strong for $8, and Grand Market is the proof.

An average King will most likely lead to fewer VPs than an average Goon or Bishop.

If so, it would be because you can get Goons/Bishop earlier and they can accumulate more VP in a single play (Goons with multiple buys and stacking, Bishop by trashing high cost cards).  So what?  Those are terminals, King is not.
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LastFootnote

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2015, 04:23:33 pm »
+2

Oh man, I was holding off on ripping this card apart. Now I just realized that the OP is the same guy that accused me of creating a trap kingdom when I beat him up in a game today.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150706/log.50675f6afca284ca61206e88.1436203424338.txt

Anyway Horatio, I agree with iguanaiguana. Your card is Boring with a capital Z. Yawn.
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2015, 04:24:49 pm »
+2

About the proper worth of GM without the copper restriction, it is probably slightly above 7 as Donald priced it at 7 without the extra buy during development. It surely isn't 8.

Your claim that a +1 card, +1 action, +1 VP token, +1 coin token, is worth 8 shows that you have not really thought about the issue.
Your hypothetical 8$ card is just a Baker with +1 VP token. The latter hardly justifies a price increase of 3 given that Monument has a price increase of 2 (assuming that a hypothetical terminal silver is worth 2, Duchess is the benchmark for this claim).

Even if I agree with your basics, it still suggests that King is too cheap at $8. 

You said that Grand Market is worth slightly more than $7.  OK then.  And you say that adding +VP token is worth a $2 cost increase based on Monument and Duchess.  So now King is worth more than $9, and that's before considering the coin token!  If you take Baker vs. the standard $4 cantrip coin, then King should cost more than $10.

Edit: Oh, I guess there's the convexity thing.  Well, that justifies giving a discount, so we are back down to $9.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 04:27:44 pm by eHalcyon »
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pacovf

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2015, 04:33:32 pm »
+5

Oh man, I was holding off on ripping this card apart. Now I just realized that the OP is the same guy that accused me of creating a trap kingdom when I beat him up in a game today.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150706/log.50675f6afca284ca61206e88.1436203424338.txt

Anyway Horatio, I agree with iguanaiguana. Your card is Boring with a capital Z. Yawn.

Gee, LFN, you are better than this.
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LastFootnote

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2015, 05:12:51 pm »
+3

Oh man, I was holding off on ripping this card apart. Now I just realized that the OP is the same guy that accused me of creating a trap kingdom when I beat him up in a game today.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150706/log.50675f6afca284ca61206e88.1436203424338.txt

Anyway Horatio, I agree with iguanaiguana. Your card is Boring with a capital Z. Yawn.

Gee, LFN, you are better than this.

Sorry. I guess it got to me—more than I wanted to admit to myself—that he was accusing me of wrongdoing just because I won a game against him. I wasn't trying to scam you, Horatio!

Anyway, I tend not to like cards that are basically a collection of vanilla bonuses, and King is no exception. But that's my personal bias. Obviously many folks find the card interesting enough to discuss, so that's a point in its favor right there.
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2015, 05:14:39 pm »
+2

Oh man, I was holding off on ripping this card apart. Now I just realized that the OP is the same guy that accused me of creating a trap kingdom when I beat him up in a game today.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150706/log.50675f6afca284ca61206e88.1436203424338.txt

Anyway Horatio, I agree with iguanaiguana. Your card is Boring with a capital Z. Yawn.

Gee, LFN, you are better than this.

Sorry. I guess it got to me—more than I wanted to admit to myself—that he was accusing me of wrongdoing just because I won a game against him. I wasn't trying to scam you, Horatio!

Anyway, I tend not to like cards that are basically a collection of vanilla bonuses, and King is no exception. But that's my personal bias. Obviously many folks find the card interesting enough to discuss, so that's a point in its favor right there.

Part of it is probably that vanilla cards are easier to discuss.
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LastFootnote

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2015, 05:15:17 pm »
+4

Oh man, I was holding off on ripping this card apart. Now I just realized that the OP is the same guy that accused me of creating a trap kingdom when I beat him up in a game today.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150706/log.50675f6afca284ca61206e88.1436203424338.txt

Anyway Horatio, I agree with iguanaiguana. Your card is Boring with a capital Z. Yawn.

Gee, LFN, you are better than this.

Sorry. I guess it got to me—more than I wanted to admit to myself—that he was accusing me of wrongdoing just because I won a game against him. I wasn't trying to scam you, Horatio!

Anyway, I tend not to like cards that are basically a collection of vanilla bonuses, and King is no exception. But that's my personal bias. Obviously many folks find the card interesting enough to discuss, so that's a point in its favor right there.

Part of it is probably that vanilla cards are easier to discuss.

Man, I am trying to put a positive spin on this!
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2015, 06:57:23 pm »
0

I agree with everything that eHalcyon said. I assume he's an expericenced player (at least, he's been around the forum for a long time) and knows what he's talking about. His main point, that Grand Market would often be bought with $8 in hand and that GM could be worth $8 without the Copper clause, is totally valid judging from my own experience with GM. Comparing King to Prince makes little sense because the latter is much more dependent on the rest of the kingdom than King.

Anyway, I also think King looks absurdly powerful and kinda boring at the same time. Werothegreat made a good suggestion that you should really consider.

Instead of +1VP, have it be "Gain an Estate." no, even better: "Choose a Victory card in the Supply costing $5 or less.  Each other player gains a copy of it."  So you start off giving everyone else Estates, then Duchies... and then there's only one more pile to empty.  Because Kings grant titles to their subjects!

EDIT: This is in addition to the +1VP, not replacing it.  So you're accumulating VP while throwing Estates at everyone else.

This would make King much more interesting and sufficiently different from any original card. I still would remove the +$1 or the coin token from it because I don't like having both on the same card.
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2015, 07:01:08 pm »
0

I agree with everything that eHalcyon said. I assume he's an expericenced player

I'm mediocre. :P
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Marcory

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2015, 09:51:21 pm »
+4

An $8 card that doesn't start with P is unacceptable, please revise immediately.

Clearly, this card should be Potentate. Or Plutocrat. Or for a Roman feel, Praetor. The game doesn't have any Indian cards; you could try Pundit. Or you could even go democratic and have it be President. Or go with a Catholic feel and get either Protopriest (2 P's), Pontiff, or Pope. This card is just crying out for some Pflavor.
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