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Author Topic: an 8$ card  (Read 55906 times)

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horatio83

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an 8$ card
« on: July 03, 2015, 10:16:41 am »
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First of all, I know how tricky 8$ cards are. There is only one official one ... and we all know Donald's opinion concerning promos. Prince is fairly board-dependent and it is only worthwhile if you are lucky to draw it together with a decent card that you wanna "prince." The other pseudo-8 card is Possession and like Prince it is also pretty game-changing.

My idea about an 8 card is the very opposite, more or less a vanilla card, a variation of Grand Market:



Here is a version of the card. As it does not provide a lot of VPs and as the Coin tokens seem to be the main asset of the card I decided to slightly weaken it like this:



If we compare it with Donald's Grand Market development precursor, a card that did provide +1 Card, +1 Action, +2 Coins and did cost 7, King costs one more and provides 1 VP token, Grand Market's extra buy and instead of the second virtual money a Coin Token.
My feeling is that the card is too strong for 7 and too weak for 8 (not to mention its vanilla-ish lacklusterness if we compare it with Prince and Possession) so I considered making it an Action-Victory card (just 1VP) but due to formating issues I decided to drop it.

Please feel free to rip it apart.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 01:02:59 pm by horatio83 »
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2015, 11:11:57 am »
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Robert Baratheon = best king ever ^^

okay, more seriously... I would buy this, as this is better than Grand Market, but only in Colony games ! In Province games, Prince would be usually better because you need less cash and to go faster.

Am I wrong ?
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2015, 11:37:53 am »
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Robert Baratheon = best king ever ^^

okay, more seriously... I would buy this, as this is better than Grand Market, but only in Colony games ! In Province games, Prince would be usually better because you need less cash and to go faster.

Am I wrong ?

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to compare it to Prince because the cards do completely different things and usually Prince isn't available when this is, and vice versa.
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2015, 11:40:00 am »
+1

You forgot Peddler!

I think this is too strong.  Monument can already create degenerate games where the correct move for both players is to generate a bunch of VP tokens and never progress the game towards a win condition, though it's rare.  Bishop can do the same when Fortress is on the board.  Putting +VP token on a cantrip (as this card) makes it much easier and more likely for this kind of stalemate to occur.  Note how all of the VP token cards are terminal and do not draw.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2015, 11:44:03 am »
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Robert Baratheon = best king ever ^^

okay, more seriously... I would buy this, as this is better than Grand Market, but only in Colony games ! In Province games, Prince would be usually better because you need less cash and to go faster.

Am I wrong ?

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to compare it to Prince because the cards do completely different things and usually Prince isn't available when this is, and vice versa.

I mean it would be fine. And I'm not sure it would be totally broken neither.
Well, I tried once a "+1 card +1 action +1 vp" card and I was kinda blamed (though it was a contest) but it didn't have money.

eHalcyon, do you have an example of games that degenrate with Monument and tons of +actions ?
A cantrip (not even a non-terminal card) can do so if it doesn't trash or gain cards, if the cards are split 5/5 or 3/3/3+1 in the trash for instance ("I won't empty piles !!!")
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 11:50:49 am by ChocophileBenj »
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2015, 11:53:23 am »
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I don't have a link, but I remember hearing anecdotes from forum regulars.  One theoretical setup is where both players have KC-Monument in a very delicate engine.
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werothegreat

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2015, 12:32:03 pm »
+3

Instead of +1VP, have it be "Gain an Estate." no, even better: "Choose a Victory card in the Supply costing $5 or less.  Each other player gains a copy of it."  So you start off giving everyone else Estates, then Duchies... and then there's only one more pile to empty.  Because Kings grant titles to their subjects!

EDIT: This is in addition to the +1VP, not replacing it.  So you're accumulating VP while throwing Estates at everyone else.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 12:36:17 pm by werothegreat »
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popsofctown

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2015, 01:06:41 pm »
+2

Seems much better than Province if there is any trashing.  But VP chip cards are sometimes alternate ending conditions from Province and that can be fine.  Colony is an alternate ending condition from Province.  You do want to make sure an ending happens though.  Goons does so by giving you so much +buy you can pile out curses or estates (although when they are evenly split Goons can get kinda stalematey when no one wants to be first to wreck their deck with a copper stack).  Monument does a better job by giving you twice as much money as it does VP chips and being terminal, that tends to make buying Provinces attractive. Bishop is.. Bishop usually works out okay, I don't honestly fully understand why.  I've seen Golden decks and I could say "well if your opponent makes a Golden deck, obviously you can't make one as a reaction because you're behind", but I've actually built a double Golden Deck before.  And then a triple Golden deck could beat that, if you're playing with Intrigue treasures.  But most of the time it is just so hard to abuse Bishop without Fortress, and Fortress breaks everything so that doesn't count.

So well, this gives you twice as much cash as VP like Monument, but is also nonterminal.   Will the game end? I think it probably doesn't have too much issue ending because of that combination of coin tokens and plus buy.  If you're both looping, one player will get a stack of coin tokens, and play 3 kings in one turn, and then alpha strike the Province pile for 4 provinces and be making so much progress on emptying that stack that it will be ok if he now has less VP chip income than his opponent.  So I think it's fine.
I actually think swapping the coin token for another 1$ would generate a really huge problem, but the coin token can actually makes this healthier than Monument on one of the dimensions we're interested in.
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2015, 01:20:39 pm »
+2

Bishop is usually fine because it needs stuff to trash, which means you will be buying stuff and progressing closer to a game ending condition.  Monument is more likely to be problematic than Bishop.

I didn't notice the coin token.  That does make it better.
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GendoIkari

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2015, 04:55:51 pm »
+5

Bishop is usually fine because it needs stuff to trash, which means you will be buying stuff and progressing closer to a game ending condition.  Monument is more likely to be problematic than Bishop.

I didn't notice the coin token.  That does make it better.

Pretty sure the coin token is a really smart solution to the problem of VP tokens being a way to avoid ending the game. Between that and the +buy, this card would strongly encourage you to end the game eventually. You could be getting a few vp tokens per turn for a while, but then you could just buy all the Provinces at once.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 05:47:55 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2015, 05:18:34 pm »
+3

To me, this just looks like a dull collection of all of the vanilla bonuses lumped together on a card. Maybe its fine at 8, maybe not. But it certainly isn't the exciting sort of card that I would hope for if I'm going to be playing with something that costs 8. Grand market is fine, but I don't think the game is in need of a grand market+.

I wouldn't have said this, except that a lot of people are discussing the card as if it is interesting and that pushed me toward pointing out that this card is very simple and, besides bridging the simplest of the prosperity and guilds expansion themes, does nothing new.
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2015, 05:34:47 pm »
+4

To me, this just looks like a dull collection of all of the vanilla bonuses lumped together on a card. Maybe its fine at 8, maybe not. But it certainly isn't the exciting sort of card that I would hope for if I'm going to be playing with something that costs 8. Grand market is fine, but I don't think the game is in need of a grand market+.

I wouldn't have said this, except that a lot of people are discussing the card as if it is interesting and that pushed me toward pointing out that this card is very simple and, besides bridging the simplest of the prosperity and guilds expansion themes, does nothing new.
But you have to have some vanilla cards.  Lost City doesn't do anything new either, but DXV saw fit to include it.  I like it.  It should be called something else, though, all $8 cards begin with P.  P-Diddy?  Pope?
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pacovf

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2015, 05:46:43 pm »
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2015, 07:28:51 pm »
+1

I like this card. I like new simple cards.

Then again, I think a $1 action that gives +$2 is interesting. :)
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2015, 08:31:03 pm »
+1

I still think this is too strong though.  This is strictly better than Grand Market (barring edge cases) but $8 is usually easier to hit than Grand Market's $6 without Copper.
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werothegreat

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2015, 09:54:23 pm »
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I still think this is too strong though.  This is strictly better than Grand Market (barring edge cases) but $8 is usually easier to hit than Grand Market's $6 without Copper.

What about my suggestion of handing out Victory cards to everyone else?
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2015, 09:57:10 pm »
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I still think this is too strong though.  This is strictly better than Grand Market (barring edge cases) but $8 is usually easier to hit than Grand Market's $6 without Copper.

What about my suggestion of handing out Victory cards to everyone else?

That makes it stronger while handing out Estates and maybe weaker while handing out Duchies (depends on the rest of the board).  $8 is probably still too low, I think, even if it's weaker due to the Duchy part.

That said, it probably can't hand out VP cards and do all those vanilla bonuses, simply due to lack of card space.
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2015, 03:43:26 am »
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Thanks for all the reactions. Consensus seems to be that the card is too strong for 8.

I think that a price of 9 would be too high (in general for an action card) and create the further problem that now the card would have to be compared directly to Platinum.
So King has to be nerfed and perhaps a "when you gain this card" thingy is an idea (as eHalcyon has pointed out, while the spreading of VP cards fits thematically it makes the card better while the estate pile is not empty yet and worse otherwise which is really too swingy / game-state dependent for my taste). I'd like to stick to the vanilla-ish bonuses the card provides so a Coin token and/or VP token for each other player is the first thing that comes to mind.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2015, 10:19:27 am »
+1

Maybe you can't buy it without having at least $10 to spend. It makes it basically cost more but still keep the price. (And have synergies)
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2015, 05:46:31 am »
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The problem with that is that you rarely hit 10 in non-Platinum games. I think that I am going for "When you gain this, each other player + 1VP token".
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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2015, 03:28:03 pm »
+2

Being a dominant alternative to Province isn't really an issue for 8$ cards.  If "what do I do with my 8$" was supposed to be a meaningful choice, virtually every kingdom ever used is bad and most of the recommended kingdoms are bad.

Cards like Colony, Prince, Platinum, Goons, Tournament, Nobles, and Forge pose more of a question of, how significant are the moments I hit 8, and how do the contents of my deck matter differently when I start to hit 8?  They are more like rule benders than items on a menu that are there to present a meaningful choice.  They are brutally dominant a lot of the time, and that doesn't usually upset us.  The decision price points are 3$, 4$, 5$, and sometimes 6$ (it's often ok if we lose that one).  6-8$ cards tweak the way we evaluate 3-5$ cards by their presence in the kingdom rather than presenting meaningful choices themselves.  "Is Navigator better than Militia when I can accelerate an incredibly early Platinum?  Is Smithy a stronger opening than Plaza even though I know Nobles will be coming into my deck this game?  Baron spikes are good, but don't I need a more sustainable way to hit 6$ over and over to reach Goons critical mass?  Or is the trashing enough?  Why can't Baron be obviously better than X like it usually is?"


King's not different from that.
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horatio83

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2015, 03:57:07 pm »
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Being a dominant alternative to Province isn't really an issue for 8$ cards.
[...]
King's not different from that.
Nope. King is different and during the game it will be directly compared with Province. This is why Donald never made a non-promo 8$ card.

Have you ever played with Prince? When you hit 8 and Prince is in the deck the first question that runs through your mind is whether you should buy Province or Prince. If it is early in the game and you have decent cards that you can "prince" you might go for the Prince whereas if you have "to be princed" cards or it is late in the game you buy the Province.
To buy or not buy the Prince actually becomes one of the most critical decisions of the game, partly because Prince is a risky card and partly because you forgo a Province.

Of course the issue becomes more complex in a Colony game or in the presence of 7$ cards as a 7$ card might be preferred to King or as King might be even bought at 9 instead of Platinum.
I actually only thought about the latter. King should be decent enough that you buy it sometimes instead of a Province in a normal game and decent enough that it is nearly as good as Platinum in a Colony game but rarely bought instead of Platinum.
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Asper

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2015, 04:22:32 pm »
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The problem with that is that you rarely hit 10 in non-Platinum games. I think that I am going for "When you gain this, each other player + 1VP token".

Just in case you want to do something that hasn't been done before, giving free VP on gain was done before. I don't know about others, but i did it rather recently.

Either way, i'm not exactly a fan of King, but i'm not sure it needs to be nerfed. 8$ IS a very high opportunity cost.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2015, 08:14:47 pm »
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I don't think it's too powerful either. It's basically a Grand Market that gives +VP. The coin tokens and buy it gives out prevent it from going infinite, but it's perfectly fine at $8 I think.
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eHalcyon

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Re: an 8$ card
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2015, 10:24:32 pm »
+1

I don't think it's too powerful either. It's basically a Grand Market that gives +VP. The coin tokens and buy it gives out prevent it from going infinite, but it's perfectly fine at $8 I think.

Again, I contend that $8 is quite often a cheaper price point than Grand Market's $6 without Copper.  That's the issue I see.
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