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Author Topic: The Grand Tournament Discussion  (Read 102112 times)

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popsofctown

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #125 on: August 02, 2015, 01:55:42 pm »
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Dunno how long it's been up there, but there's a 2/1 Charge with Divine Shield for 3.  Surely that's worth talking about.  Wolf rider sees play, and I can't think of any minion I wouldn't happily axe an attack from to get divine shield
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qmech

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #126 on: August 02, 2015, 03:10:51 pm »
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Dunno how long it's been up there, but there's a 2/1 Charge with Divine Shield for 3.  Surely that's worth talking about.  Wolf rider sees play, and I can't think of any minion I wouldn't happily axe an attack from to get divine shield

There's a big difference between 2 and 3 attack though.  2 attack is only going to trade with raptors, and they aren't particularly common.  I like it more than Bluegill, but that's not such a strong statement.  In the late game you're going to play a card like this for burst so I still like Wolfrider more.

i think i prefer it to zombie chow as an anti aggro tech.

I think this is right.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 03:13:50 pm by qmech »
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Titandrake

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #127 on: August 02, 2015, 03:20:03 pm »
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Wolfrider is played in decks like Face Hunter though. In constructed decks where you'd play Wolfrider, late game isn't a consideration, and you aren't going to be using it for trades. Forcing 2 separate hits from your opponent to remove it definitely seems good for Face Hunter/Aggro Paladin.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #128 on: August 02, 2015, 03:27:20 pm »
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Intuitively I'd say that I wouldn't run it in Pally aggro. It's probably going to deal something like 4 damage total which is something I'd expect to get out of a 1-drop, and it's a pain in the ass to remove it from your hand before playing a Divine Favor.
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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #129 on: August 02, 2015, 04:00:38 pm »
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Dunno how long it's been up there, but there's a 2/1 Charge with Divine Shield for 3.  Surely that's worth talking about.  Wolf rider sees play, and I can't think of any minion I wouldn't happily axe an attack from to get divine shield

There's a big difference between 2 and 3 attack though.  2 attack is only going to trade with raptors, and they aren't particularly common.  I like it more than Bluegill, but that's not such a strong statement.  In the late game you're going to play a card like this for burst so I still like Wolfrider more.
There are a few pretty strong raptors though, such as Knife Juggler, Sorceror's Apprentice, and Wild Pyromancer. Even aggro decks probably want to take those cards out in order not to get out-tempo/aggro'd.

I don't always want to talk about cards unless they're brought up in the thread, like the 2 mana 2/4 that can only attack if inspired or the 5 mana spell for Mage that deals 8 damage to a minion.
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qmech

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #130 on: August 02, 2015, 04:15:55 pm »
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Perhaps the more relevant point is that it's trading down, even if you are left with the weak body afterwards.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #131 on: August 02, 2015, 04:30:45 pm »
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It's basically a mini-Argent Commander.
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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #132 on: August 02, 2015, 04:41:23 pm »
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Argent Commander is slightly less bad as you aren't so worried about exact mana values of trades by the time you can play it, and your opponent might not have a tiny minion on the board waiting to clear the 4/2.  They're both bad in constructed, but Commander is reasonable in arena.  I'd take a 3/3 over Horserider almost always.
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markusin

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #133 on: August 02, 2015, 04:58:08 pm »
+1

Well, there's another new card:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/3fizcd/new_card_wrathguard/

2 Mana Warlock Minion
4/3 demon
"Whenever" this minion takes damage, also deal that amount to your hero.

Okay so a 2 Mana version of Flame Imp, at least early on. Later, it can make Molten Shadowflame and Oil + Blade Flurry even deadlier.

One problem with it is there are a whole bunch of aggro decks right now, and aggro vs. aggro is often decided by a few health points. Just like Flame Imp is a lot worse than Voidwalker vs. aggro. The other problem is that a card like this wants to trade up, but you take so much damage for trading with an 8/8 for example.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #134 on: August 02, 2015, 06:47:34 pm »
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People don't run pitlord. This is going to often do the same damage, or almost as much, as pitlord would. And it's stats are worse for its mana cost than Pitlord. So unless demon becomes a thing, I don't think this will be good. In arena it's decent though. The stats are good and health is less of an issue.
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Watno

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #135 on: August 02, 2015, 07:23:01 pm »
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I think a huge problem is that it might singlehandedly lose games to Control Warrior.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #136 on: August 02, 2015, 07:27:35 pm »
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I think a huge problem is that it might singlehandedly lose games to Control Warrior.

Haha! That's a trolden video for sure. someone losing to a 30 damage shield slam topdeck.
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popsofctown

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #137 on: August 02, 2015, 09:53:52 pm »
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It's a piloted shredder result, so that's gonna happen.
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Titandrake

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #138 on: August 03, 2015, 12:15:05 pm »
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New card. http://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/3fkp51/new_rogue_card_5_mana_37_combo_3_attack/

Rogue, 5 Mana
Shado-Pan Cavalry
3/7
Combo: +3 Attack

Looks really nice for arena. Don't think it'll be good enough for constructed, even with support it doesn't feel like it would surpass Boulderfist Ogre enough to be viable. Nice budget option though.
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popsofctown

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #139 on: August 03, 2015, 12:27:15 pm »
+1

I think the 2/1 Divine Shield charge is good in no-board-presence hunter.  If you kill a knife juggler that's fine, but you can also just ram face with it and it's a pain to kill it.

Wolf Rider does 3 to the face, then requires the opponent to take 3 damage amongst minions and heroes to remove it using weapons and minions.

Argent Infant does 2 to the face, then requires the opponent to take 4 damage amongst minions and heroes to remove it using weapons and minions.

So usually they are kinda the same as a turn 3 play.  Wolf rider is better because it provides more total damage as an end-of-game play.  But there's this bug where I can't put more than 2 Wolf Riders in my deck so this guy is actually competing against Arcane Golem, and I think he compares favorably there.
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markusin

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #140 on: August 03, 2015, 01:32:22 pm »
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I think the 2/1 Divine Shield charge is good in no-board-presence hunter.  If you kill a knife juggler that's fine, but you can also just ram face with it and it's a pain to kill it.

Wolf Rider does 3 to the face, then requires the opponent to take 3 damage amongst minions and heroes to remove it using weapons and minions.

Argent Infant does 2 to the face, then requires the opponent to take 4 damage amongst minions and heroes to remove it using weapons and minions.

So usually they are kinda the same as a turn 3 play.  Wolf rider is better because it provides more total damage as an end-of-game play.  But there's this bug where I can't put more than 2 Wolf Riders in my deck so this guy is actually competing against Arcane Golem, and I think he compares favorably there.
It can do more damage than Wolfrider if it survives an AoE that would normally kill Wolfrider such as Consecration of Whirlwind. It won't surpass Arcane Golem's face damage though. I'm not sure which of Wolfrider and Arcane Golem you'd you'd swap for this new charger, if any.
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blueblimp

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #141 on: August 03, 2015, 05:10:37 pm »
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I don't get why Blizzard keeps making cards with a fixed mana cost that have slightly-below-curve stats and a condition that buffs them to slightly-above-curve stats. Cards like Blackwing Technician, and now Shado-Pan Cavalry and Master of Ceremonies.

That kind of design just seems excessively cautious. The result, in my opinion, is boring cards. If you're going to do a card that's nothing but pumped-up stats, at least make it so that the theoretical best case is crazy, like with Frostwolf Warlord. Would Master of Ceremonies even be broken if she got +2/+2 _per_ spell damage minion instead of just once?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 05:11:40 pm by blueblimp »
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Awaclus

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #142 on: August 03, 2015, 05:30:12 pm »
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Well, a 6/4 for 3 mana is more than slightly-above-curve.
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markusin

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #143 on: August 03, 2015, 05:32:07 pm »
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I don't get why Blizzard keeps making cards with a fixed mana cost that have slightly-below-curve stats and a condition that buffs them to slightly-above-curve stats. Cards like Blackwing Technician, and now Shado-Pan Cavalry and Master of Ceremonies.

That kind of design just seems excessively cautious. The result, in my opinion, is boring cards. If you're going to do a card that's nothing but pumped-up stats, at least make it so that the theoretical best case is crazy, like with Frostwolf Warlord. Would Master of Ceremonies even be broken if she got +2/+2 _per_ spell damage minion instead of just once?

Yeah I sort of feel this way too. You jump through hoops to get like a 1-1.5 mana boost in stats when the payoff isn't even that great compared to cards with crazy abilities, especially at the higher mana level as is the case for Shado-Pan Cavalry. At three mana though, it's not so bad to have a "stat monster", as early on you just want stuff to give you the initiative. Like, I don't mind Tinkertown Technician or Blackwing Technician since they at least fit it with a a novel theme that's core to their expansion. Each expansion should have a couple of those.

This card though, Master of Ceremonies, like why spell damage minions? The spell damage minions pay a stat cost, but you should be making up for that with spells, not a minion that makes you break even stat-wise.

Anyway 6/4 with a conditional effect is already covered by Volcanic Drake. By the time you can reliably make use of its bonus, 4 health minions aren't all that great anymore.
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blueblimp

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #144 on: August 04, 2015, 01:50:17 am »
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Well, a 6/4 for 3 mana is more than slightly-above-curve.
At most generous, it's 1.5 mana above curve. But even a 4 mana 6/4 would probably not be played in constructed, since it doesn't do much that Lost Tallstrider doesn't. (For example, it trades with the front half of a Piloted Shredder.) So in practice we're talking about less-than-1-mana-above-curve.

But my point is not that 6/4 stats aren't strong (although it's true, they aren't), it's that 6/4 stats are boring. Playing a 3 mana 6/4 is not going to make any highlight reels.
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markusin

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #145 on: August 04, 2015, 02:25:58 pm »
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Looks like Battlecry-referencing effects are coming back.

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/19822389

4 Mana Minion (Neutral Epic)
4/4
Whenever you play a minion card with Battlecry, gain +1/+1

Edit: Looks like there are some non-minions with battlecry ex. Glaivezooka.

Interestingness of the design aside, this card looks like one to watch out for because you find lots of quality minions across all mana costs when dipping into the battlecry tag. At 1 mana 1/2 with the same effect you'd have something close to pre-nerf Undertaker.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 02:56:23 pm by markusin »
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popsofctown

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #146 on: August 04, 2015, 04:56:02 pm »
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I don't get why Blizzard keeps making cards with a fixed mana cost that have slightly-below-curve stats and a condition that buffs them to slightly-above-curve stats.
It's because Blizzard is not very good at designing ccgs.
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markusin

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #147 on: August 04, 2015, 05:58:33 pm »
+1

I don't get why Blizzard keeps making cards with a fixed mana cost that have slightly-below-curve stats and a condition that buffs them to slightly-above-curve stats.
It's because Blizzard is not very good at designing ccgs.

Hrm, I'm still annoyed that a neutral, Dr. Boom is strictly better that another neutral, War Golem. There was no need to go down the path of Legendary-can-be-strictly-better except as admission that they screwed up with War Golem's power level or the desire to have people acquire new content in a more forced way.

I'm still happy that they release cards that have powerful niche effects that may only be worth it in the future when more cards are released. You can bet I'll be all over a Wailing Soul style deck if it ever becomes viable. Sadly I'm not seeing too much off-the-wall stuff like that in these recent reveals. I'd say Blackrock Mountain's cards are a good deal more interesting than the Grand Tournament cards even though most ended up being too weak to enter the high-level constructed scene.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 06:02:10 pm by markusin »
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werothegreat

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #148 on: August 04, 2015, 06:11:14 pm »
+1

Dr. Boom annoys me in general.
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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #149 on: August 04, 2015, 06:18:44 pm »
0

Dr. Boom annoys me in general.
When I first saw its card text, "Warning: Boom bots may EXPLODE", I though it implied that the Boom bots had a chance of exploding right after being summoned and backfiring on Dr. Boom or other friendly characters. That would have been better for balance I think. Maybe that was the original plan, but they bailed on it near the release of GvG #ConspiracyKeanu.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 06:19:45 pm by markusin »
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