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Author Topic: The Grand Tournament Discussion  (Read 102083 times)

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markusin

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #100 on: July 31, 2015, 06:31:50 pm »
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I guess you could feasibly use it to do some big buff and kill someone when mana barely matters anymore in a demon themed zoo deck. Like Arcane Golem or Power Overwhelming but with really a specific requirement.
When I think about it, it seems like +3/+3 early in the game on something like Voidwalker will usually be overkill. It gets better later in the game, but I think demonlock decks want things that help with board advantage early on. Being forced to use a card like this over Dark Bomb or Demonfire can be detrimental in the long run. I still want to try it out a bit as a 1-of.
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Jorbles

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #101 on: July 31, 2015, 06:53:35 pm »
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I guess let's think about this a bit

Assuming you go first:
Turn 1
You
Flame Imp or Void Walker
Opponent
Pass or plays a 2/1 or a Chow or Coins a 2 drop (we'll ignore other things as these are the most common plays)
Turn 2
You
Demonfuse into getting 6/5 minion or 4/6 with Taunt.
Opponent
Has three mana, needs to use an early game removal spell plus whatever minion they have out, or an Owl or have a soft removal like Sap/Freezing Trap.

They can't really play anything this turn unless they saved the Coin (in which case they could play a 2 drop and trade their 1 drop plus removal.) So they only get to punish you hard for this if they play a 1 drop AND have removal AND a 2 drop. Otherwise they are probably only just removing the card and trying to come back onto the board later, in which case they get a slight advantage or they're just falling super behind on board. Maybe it's not so bad? It's kinda like playing an Innervate.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 07:29:28 pm by Jorbles »
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markusin

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #102 on: July 31, 2015, 10:37:50 pm »
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I think the card also has value when the game is at the point where your opponent plays Sludge Belcher or Druid of the Claw turn 5. Imp Gang Boss + Demonfuse or 1/1 Imp + Demonfuse + 1 attack from Dire Wolf or Argus deals 5 damage right there to get through the big part of Belcher. On Turn 6 your opponent might have wanted to play Thaurissan anyway, so they'd waste the extra mana. On the other hand, they can play Dr. Boom a turn earlier.

Basically, the extra mana for your opponent is only a big issue if they can spend that on quality (mass) removal or a game winning combo. Playing an Ancient of Lore one turn sooner isn't amazing if the demonlock player got a big tempo swing from the Demonfuse.

Saying all this, I still feel like the card is one the weak side, but I'd wager it's not the worst thing since Felguard. If it destroyed your own mana crystal instead, then Demonfuse would be pretty awful.
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popsofctown

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #103 on: August 01, 2015, 09:32:57 pm »
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Felguard is better than Demonfuse, therefore it is impossible for Demonfuse to be "the worst thing since Felguard".
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markusin

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #104 on: August 01, 2015, 10:03:49 pm »
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Felguard is better than Demonfuse, therefore it is impossible for Demonfuse to be "the worst thing since Felguard".
I would think screwing up your own tempo is worse than giving a boost to your opponent's tempo, no? Giving your opponent mana gives them a chance to answer your stuff sooner, but destroying your own mana makes them have less to have to answer to begin with.

Of course, the bonus of the effect itself is a factor in the worth of the cards.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 10:05:27 pm by markusin »
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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #105 on: August 01, 2015, 10:26:02 pm »
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Felguard is better than Demonfuse, therefore it is impossible for Demonfuse to be "the worst thing since Felguard".
Indepentantly of the relative strength of Felguard and Demonfuse, I think this is wrong. If something is the worst thing since some point of time, it's also the worst thing since every later point of time.
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markusin

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #106 on: August 01, 2015, 10:41:01 pm »
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Felguard is better than Demonfuse, therefore it is impossible for Demonfuse to be "the worst thing since Felguard".
Indepentantly of the relative strength of Felguard and Demonfuse, I think this is wrong. If something is the worst thing since some point of time, it's also the worst thing since every later point of time.
Now I'm getting confused. But say Felguard is better than Demonfuse, then you can say " Demonfuse is the worst thing since Felguard" as it means Demonfuse has surpassed the badness of Felguard. That's how the expression is used anyway.
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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #107 on: August 02, 2015, 03:55:10 am »
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I would think screwing up your own tempo is worse than giving a boost to your opponent's tempo, no? Giving your opponent mana gives them a chance to answer your stuff sooner, but destroying your own mana makes them have less to have to answer to begin with.

On the other hand, if you're running Felguard, you can take that into account when building your deck. Your opponent might not be able to utilize his extra mana that well.
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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #108 on: August 02, 2015, 09:08:29 am »
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The pre-purchase deal is pretty good, if you are into spending real money on cards.  A buck a pack is a good deal.
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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #109 on: August 02, 2015, 10:12:08 am »
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Felguard is better than Demonfuse, therefore it is impossible for Demonfuse to be "the worst thing since Felguard".
Indepentantly of the relative strength of Felguard and Demonfuse, I think this is wrong. If something is the worst thing since some point of time, it's also the worst thing since every later point of time.
Now I'm getting confused. But say Felguard is better than Demonfuse, then you can say " Demonfuse is the worst thing since Felguard" as it means Demonfuse has surpassed the badness of Felguard. That's how the expression is used anyway.

What? If this is true I've been using the expression wrong my entire life. I'd interpret that as demonfuse being better than felguard. It's worse than every card in between felguard and demonfuse, but it's better than felguard.
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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #110 on: August 02, 2015, 10:19:03 am »
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Felguard is better than Demonfuse, therefore it is impossible for Demonfuse to be "the worst thing since Felguard".
Indepentantly of the relative strength of Felguard and Demonfuse, I think this is wrong. If something is the worst thing since some point of time, it's also the worst thing since every later point of time.
Now I'm getting confused. But say Felguard is better than Demonfuse, then you can say " Demonfuse is the worst thing since Felguard" as it means Demonfuse has surpassed the badness of Felguard. That's how the expression is used anyway.

What? If this is true I've been using the expression wrong my entire life. I'd interpret that as demonfuse being better than felguard. It's worse than every card in between felguard and demonfuse, but it's better than felguard.

Agree with TA.  Take the inverse:

"The best thing since sliced bread" is a thing that surpasses the awesomeness of all things invented since sliced bread was created. 
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markusin

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #111 on: August 02, 2015, 10:54:59 am »
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Felguard is better than Demonfuse, therefore it is impossible for Demonfuse to be "the worst thing since Felguard".
Indepentantly of the relative strength of Felguard and Demonfuse, I think this is wrong. If something is the worst thing since some point of time, it's also the worst thing since every later point of time.
Now I'm getting confused. But say Felguard is better than Demonfuse, then you can say " Demonfuse is the worst thing since Felguard" as it means Demonfuse has surpassed the badness of Felguard. That's how the expression is used anyway.

What? If this is true I've been using the expression wrong my entire life. I'd interpret that as demonfuse being better than felguard. It's worse than every card in between felguard and demonfuse, but it's better than felguard.

Agree with TA.  Take the inverse:

"The best thing since sliced bread" is a thing that surpasses the awesomeness of all things invented since sliced bread was created.
Okay I see, that makes sense. But, where does that expression it imply that it is for sure not better that sliced bread?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 10:56:14 am by markusin »
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Haddock

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #112 on: August 02, 2015, 11:01:01 am »
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Okay I see, that makes sense. But, where does that expression it imply that it is for sure not better that sliced bread?
It doesn't.  At least not logically.
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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #113 on: August 02, 2015, 11:03:24 am »
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The expression "best thing since sliced bread" isn't meant to convey that it is better than sliced bread, just that nothing that came out in the time since sliced bread was invented has been as good as whatever we are discussing now.

If you want to rate the new thing higher than sliced bread, you just say "best thing ever."
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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #114 on: August 02, 2015, 11:44:06 am »
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Sliced bread is a pretty low standard to hold ourselves to.  I apologise on behalf of my countrymen for inflicting the Chorleywood process on the world.
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Galzria

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #115 on: August 02, 2015, 11:45:16 am »
+1

The expression "best thing since sliced bread" isn't meant to convey that it is better than sliced bread, just that nothing that came out in the time since sliced bread was invented has been as good as whatever we are discussing now.

If you want to rate the new thing higher than sliced bread, you just say "best thing ever."

I believe that it is implied that sliced bread is still better.

In a timeline of A --- B --- C, "C is the best thing since B" implies that while nothing was better between events,  B is in fact still better. If that were not the case, you would either pick the next event back that WAS better (possibly A, possibly not) or as you say, rate it the "Best thing ever".

I suppose it's not explicit though. And word for word there's no implication on the value of B at all. At it's most basic, "C is the best thing since B" simply says that since event B nothing has happened that is better than C. The quality of B has no bearing on the statement at all.

So I guess I could see how the use of the statement varies depending on where you're from. I think my personal belief that it's implied that B is in fact better than C is probably a more inaccurate interpretation to the literal meaning of the phrase.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 11:46:26 am by Galzria »
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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #116 on: August 02, 2015, 12:21:15 pm »
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I think galzria is absolutely correct. purely logically, nothing is being said about B when we say "c is the best thing since b". However, practically, there's a reason we're choosing b as the cutoff point. I think it's pretty clearly implied that by making the statement "c is the best thing since b", you're also saying c is worse than b, otherwise why would you have arbitrarily chosen b as the cutoff?

For example, if I say something like "Zack greinke is on pace to have the lowest ERA by a pitcher since 2004", it's directly implying someone had a lower era in 2004.
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popsofctown

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #117 on: August 02, 2015, 12:23:35 pm »
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I interpret the expression to mean that "In the time range from the past point to the current point, excluding the boundaries, Item X is a local maximum in that range".

I'm pretty sure that's what it means.

My statement was factually incorrect therefore.  I meant that it's impossible for the common saying to be the most appropriate one, I didn't literally mean that it was impossible for his statement to be true. 

It's not possible for the head to head comparison X vs. Y in "X is the best $ since Y" to have any bearing on the truth value because the statement is understood to exclude the boundary point, if it doesn't exclude the boundary point it's a useless expression, or at least a tedious one when you have to name the moment ever so slightly after the last thing that exceeded X's $ness.


So yeah I was def making a false statement, but it was a "you know what I mean" kinda thing.  I think the card is horrible. Felguard is actually a plausible target for Sense Demons in certain Malganis handlock builds but a pump spell that equips you opponent with the extra mana to remove the thing you pumped is abysmal.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 12:25:16 pm by popsofctown »
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Watno

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #118 on: August 02, 2015, 12:51:45 pm »
+1

BTT: http://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/3fia92/new_card_darnassus_panther_rider/
This one looks good for a change:
Quote
2 mana 2/3 druid card
Battlecry: Gain an empty mana crystal
Deathrattle: Destroy a mana crystal

It's kinda like Mechwarper for everything.
I think it's also the first card that has a Battlecry and a Deathrattle that are different.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #119 on: August 02, 2015, 12:54:14 pm »
+1

BTT: http://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/3fia92/new_card_darnassus_panther_rider/
This one looks good for a change:
Quote
2 mana 2/3 druid card
Battlecry: Gain an empty mana crystal
Deathrattle: Destroy a mana crystal

It's kinda like Mechwarper for everything.
I think it's also the first card that has a Battlecry and a Deathrattle that are different.

Oh boy. As someone who's been playing Druid lately, I looooove this card. It will also help loads against hunter and Mage (screw you, freezing trap and mirror entity!)
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markusin

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #120 on: August 02, 2015, 12:58:23 pm »
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I interpret the expression to mean that "In the time range from the past point to the current point, excluding the boundaries, Item X is a local maximum in that range".

I'm pretty sure that's what it means.

My statement was factually incorrect therefore.  I meant that it's impossible for the common saying to be the most appropriate one, I didn't literally mean that it was impossible for his statement to be true. 

It's not possible for the head to head comparison X vs. Y in "X is the best $ since Y" to have any bearing on the truth value because the statement is understood to exclude the boundary point, if it doesn't exclude the boundary point it's a useless expression, or at least a tedious one when you have to name the moment ever so slightly after the last thing that exceeded X's $ness.
Yeah I don't want to have to figure out the exact thing that's immediate better than something else.

So yeah I was def making a false statement, but it was a "you know what I mean" kinda thing.  I think the card is horrible. Felguard is actually a plausible target for Sense Demons in certain Malganis handlock builds but a pump spell that equips you opponent with the extra mana to remove the thing you pumped is abysmal.

Plausibly, but I've never seen it used like that. Of course, I've never seen Demonfuse either. I guess with Felguard you can get around the drawback in some ways. The value of Demonfuse fuse depends on the discrete attack values you get off the Demon you pump. Like Imp Gang boss can kill a Belcher in one hit once pumped. I was thinking you'd play Demonfuse to try to kill your opponent before they can draw their removal, but that seems ultimately futile now that I think about it.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 01:07:53 pm by markusin »
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markusin

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #121 on: August 02, 2015, 01:11:50 pm »
0

BTT: http://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/3fia92/new_card_darnassus_panther_rider/
This one looks good for a change:
Quote
2 mana 2/3 druid card
Battlecry: Gain an empty mana crystal
Deathrattle: Destroy a mana crystal

It's kinda like Mechwarper for everything.
I think it's also the first card that has a Battlecry and a Deathrattle that are different.

Oh boy. As someone who's been playing Druid lately, I looooove this card. It will also help loads against hunter and Mage (screw you, freezing trap and mirror entity!)
Even a 2 mana 2/3, "Give yourself a half-Innervate next turn if this survives" sounds neat. It even doubles for a Wild Growth if you have a brewmaster in your deck for some reason.
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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #122 on: August 02, 2015, 01:12:02 pm »
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It's like bidding in Bridge.  You don't only pay attention to the meaning of the words: you have to think about the space of possibilities, and what it means that they went for that option over reasonable alternatives.

Where does Darnassus fit into Druid?  Ramp isn't running 2-drops anyway, and it's not really a Mechwarper if you want to try aggro as the "cost reduction" is only once per turn.  It's better than a 2/3 taunt, but is it going to survive often?  Maybe silencing is where it's at, but then it's getting pretty expensive.
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markusin

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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #123 on: August 02, 2015, 01:14:14 pm »
0

It's like bidding in Bridge.  You don't only pay attention to the meaning of the words: you have to think about the space of possibilities, and what it means that they went for that option over reasonable alternatives.

Where does Darnassus fit into Druid?  Ramp isn't running 2-drops anyway, and it's not really a Mechwarper if you want to try aggro as the "cost reduction" is only once per turn.  It's better than a 2/3 taunt, but is it going to survive often?  Maybe silencing is where it's at, but then it's getting pretty expensive.
Most Silences are better against enemies that your own minions. It's another card that works well with Wailing Soul though. It can also hurt a player who steals it with Sylvanas.
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Re: The Grand Tournament Discussion
« Reply #124 on: August 02, 2015, 01:42:59 pm »
0

Where does Darnassus fit into Druid?  Ramp isn't running 2-drops anyway, and it's not really a Mechwarper if you want to try aggro as the "cost reduction" is only once per turn.  It's better than a 2/3 taunt, but is it going to survive often?  Maybe silencing is where it's at, but then it's getting pretty expensive.

I think it's quite good vs aggro. one of the problems i have is that while on the play as ramp vs. aggro, nothing -> wild growth just isn't good enough. this will help to alleviate that issue. i think i prefer it to zombie chow as an anti aggro tech. but we'll have to see how that works out. it might not make the cut but it's definitely in contention
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