Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?  (Read 6919 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Forge!!!

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 248
  • Respect: +128
    • View Profile
What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« on: January 04, 2012, 12:51:00 pm »
0

Apparently it is the best prize you can get in most games, but I have no idea what the strategy is for it. I often find myself lost and confused and just giving myself +2 actions +2 cards and wishing that I had gotten followers instead.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120103-133455-87ba451f.html

Here's a game where I gain Trusty Steed and then proceed to flounder around with it and lose. So how do you play with it?
Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1493
  • Respect: +676
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2012, 12:54:27 pm »
+1

Simple. Choose Followers instead.

Trusty Steed has the "wow" effect because of the chance to use it for +2 Cards, +2 Actions. "That's just like a level 2 City!" But there's only one of them, so it's not actually as great as it looks. Now, if Followers has gone or the Curses have run out for some other reason, then by all means take Trusty Steed, but it really isn't as good as it first looks.
Logged

DrHades

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Respect: +79
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2012, 01:07:32 pm »
0

Apparently it is the best prize you can get in most games...

It is definitely not! On the boards without Curse-giving attacks, Followers are much better! And when you have lots of spare actions (Fishing Village or City for example) then even Princess is better than Trusty Steed.

How to play it? I play it more or less like this:

1. Do I have more than 1 action? Do I need lots of actions? Choose +2 Actions.
2. Is my buying power really low? Am I in half of a big deck, but the good cards already pasted? Am I going for Gardens? Choose +4 Silvers.
3. Would 2 more coins get me exactly what I want this turn? Choose +2 Coins.
4. Choose +2 Cards.
Logged

Forge!!!

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 248
  • Respect: +128
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2012, 01:10:05 pm »
0

Huh, I could have sworn that previously people had said it was the best and had the highest win-rates and what not. Glad to know it wasn't that strange to think it was a little underwhelming.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 01:22:21 pm by Forge!!! »
Logged

DrHades

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Respect: +79
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2012, 01:16:10 pm »
0

Huh, I could have sworn that previously people had said it was the best and had the highest win-rates and what not. Glad to not it wasn't that strange to think it was a little underwhelming.

Name - Win rate with - Win rate without
Followers 1.54 0.75
Trusty Steed 1.49 0.73
Diadem 1.43 0.95
Princess 1.40 0.86
Bag of Gold 1.38 0.92
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2012, 01:33:32 pm »
0

I've grown increasingly skeptical about Trusty Steed.

When Tournament first came out, I of course jumped on the band wagon and almost always took Trusty Steed as the first prize.
Nowadays, I'm more inclined to take Followers, Princess or Bag of Gold.

If I sort on "Win Rate With", Princess is actually my #1 card, followed by Followers, (Embassy), Bag of Gold, (Jack of all Trades) and Trusty Steed. You have to take this with a grain of salt obviously, because when you're grabbing prizes, it means you're winning Tournaments and you're already grabbing Provinces. Correlation does not imply causation, as a scientist would tell you.

As far as using Trusty Steed is concerned: Using it just for +2 Cards / +2 Actions is probably the least impressive of options. Often, you've already built an engine and don't really need either. If you need the 4 Silvers, because you're going with Gardens, then when and why did you grab the Province? I think most of the time I've taken it is because I'd rather have it than let my opponent grab it.
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3668
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2012, 01:41:21 pm »
0

You have to think about what best compliments your deck. If I really need a decent village type card, take Trusty Steed. If I really need a +buy, take princess. Otherwise I usually default to Followers. I think it's probably the strongest in a big money type game.
Logged

rinkworks

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1316
  • Respect: +937
    • View Profile
    • RinkWorks
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2012, 01:49:15 pm »
0

And when you have lots of spare actions (Fishing Village or City for example) then even Princess is better than Trusty Steed.

Surely not.  With lots of spare actions, you probably use Trusty Steed for +2 Cards, +$2, which is almost always better than Princess.  Figure your average card value is almost certainly above $1, maybe approaching $2.  That means Trusty Steed will net you +$4 at minimum.  Princess only does that for you if you make use of its +Buy, and in a semi-decent deck Trusty Steed will net you +$5 or +$6 anyway.

Now throw in Trusty Steed's ability to gain Silvers AND supply extra actions if you get unlucky about having them, and Trusty Steed blows Princess out of the water in almost all cases.  The only two really significant situations where Princess is better is if (1) it's the only source of +Buys, and +Buys would be more of a help than another Prize; and (2) you have extra buys besides the one it gives you and the economy to make use of those buys.  However, (1) is not very common, and (2) is hard to make work, as you have to collide Princess with those other +Buys and also have spare actions to play them all.  In short, Princess is a lot tougher to make better than its usual case, and its usual case is rarely as good as Trusty Steed's usual case.

As for the original question about how to play Trusty Steed, I think it's a common mistake to play it for +2 Cards, +2 Actions instead of +2 Cards, +$2.  Sure, if you'll use the extra Actions, then by all means, take them.  But all too often those extra actions are unnecessary and/or less effective than simply taking +$2 and the terminal draw.

My suspicion is that Followers is still the better prize in most decks (the two big exceptions being slim decks, where the Estates really hurt you, and where other cursers are in use), but that if Trusty Steed were played right, its win rate would get a lot closer to that of Followers.  Certainly it's in second place regardless.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 01:57:05 pm by rinkworks »
Logged

greatexpectations

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1097
  • Respect: +1067
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2012, 02:03:00 pm »
0

You have to think about what best compliments your deck. If I really need a decent village type card, take Trusty Steed. If I really need a +buy, take princess. Otherwise I usually default to Followers. I think it's probably the strongest in a big money type game.

followers should definitely be the default, especially because of the tendency for some tournament games to be fast mirror matches. the 2 point difference each play and discard effect are quite useful.
Logged
momomoto: ...I looked at the tableau and went "Mountebank? That's for jerks."
rrenaud: Jerks win.

Tahtweasel

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 71
  • Respect: +36
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2012, 02:18:18 pm »
0

Trusty Steed is a perfectly nice card, and there are edge cases where it's really nice, but rarely do I build a strategy around it.

An example of where it's very important could be a game with, say, Hunting Party, Goons, and Chapel, but no +actions. The Hunting Parties likely let you draw the Steed every turn. Steed gives you the incredibly strong ability to double up on your Goons, or both trash and play Goons in the same turn.

Steed doesn't do many things brilliantly; he's just a great card that you can get for free.

In contrast, the other cards are far more board-dependent. Followers is the strongest, but not if there are other curse givers. Sometimes even having another strong handsize reducer plus trashing is enough to make it useless. In a game with Village, Wharf, Ghost Ship, and Chapel, Followers is weak.

Princess is dependent on how action-heavy you are and how many cards you want to buy per turn.

Bag of Gold is terrifying when paired with, say, Salvager or Apprentice, and it holds up pretty well in action-based decks with strong drawing and +buy. It's bad when you're trying to build a lean attacking machine deck. (For example, if you already have Followers, and want to play it as much as possible, the golds can actually be nearly a net negative.)

Diadem only becomes a monster in a few sorts of games (typically games with King's Court and nonterminals) but it's often great in a +actions/+cards engine. If you don't have +actions, avoid it entirely, but if you do, it is at very least a "why the hell not?" card most of the time.
Logged

DrHades

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Respect: +79
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2012, 02:28:14 pm »
0

And when you have lots of spare actions (Fishing Village or City for example) then even Princess is better than Trusty Steed.

Surely not.  With lots of spare actions, you probably use Trusty Steed for +2 Cards, +$2, which is almost always better than Princess.  Figure your average card value is almost certainly above $1, maybe approaching $2.  That means Trusty Steed will net you +$4 at minimum.  Princess only does that for you if you make use of its +Buy, and in a semi-decent deck Trusty Steed will net you +$5 or +$6 anyway.

Now throw in Trusty Steed's ability to gain Silvers AND supply extra actions if you get unlucky about having them, and Trusty Steed blows Princess out of the water in almost all cases.  The only two really significant situations where Princess is better is if (1) it's the only source of +Buys, and +Buys would be more of a help than another Prize; and (2) you have extra buys besides the one it gives you and the economy to make use of those buys.  However, (1) is not very common, and (2) is hard to make work, as you have to collide Princess with those other +Buys and also have spare actions to play them all.  In short, Princess is a lot tougher to make better than its usual case, and its usual case is rarely as good as Trusty Steed's usual case.

I actually think that Trusty Steed is better than Princess in most times, but I think it is really funny, that you said that Princess is good when:

1. You don't have +buys.
2. You have +buys.
 ;D ;D ;D

Anyway, you are right! If I have at least one +buy, Princess gives me 6$ to buy some 3 things (and I probably use all of them - the game is ending and I probably won't a free Estate). If you don't, then you are probably able to get a Province anyway and Princess will help you get a Duchy with it.

This is of course just an example, sometimes Trusty Steed is better even with spare actions (like if you don't have money for Province and Princess won't help you)...
Logged

Arya Stark

  • Navigator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 79
  • the things i do for dominion.....
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2012, 02:55:07 pm »
0

the strategy is get it so nobody else can have it :P
Logged

jotheonah

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 989
  • Respect: +949
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2012, 03:11:37 pm »
0

Trusty Steed is like an all-purpose engine card. If you already have a good +Cards +Actions engine, Trusty Steed is likely to make it better. And the Silvers don't hurt if you're greening fast (although in that case, consider Bag of Gold). 

Princess and Followers are good, but they're both terminals. I'm usually pretty careful about how many Terminals I have in my deck, and by the time I get to pick a prize I don't really have space for another one and it ends up colliding with other things I want to play.  I get excited about Princess, but seldom do I actually have the chance to play it.
Logged
"I know old meta, and joth is useless day 1 but awesome town day 3 and on." --Teproc

He/him

ackack

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2012, 03:48:29 pm »
0

You have to think about what best compliments your deck. If I really need a decent village type card, take Trusty Steed. If I really need a +buy, take princess. Otherwise I usually default to Followers. I think it's probably the strongest in a big money type game.

While that's true, I'd also say that if we're talking about getting these prizes at a point where it really makes a big difference in the outcome it's kinda rare that it will be that pure of a Big Money game. Often there's some terminal that's part of the initial rush to Provinces, as well as Tournament itself, which if you're gunning for prizes you will often have more than one of. I think this is the main reason why I more often than not take Steed first - the kind of deck that I have in a Tournament game likes the Steed.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2012, 06:16:45 pm »
0

The followers are the card of variable value, potentially excellent or ordinary. The trusty steed nearly always improves a deck. One time you might get the steed first is when your opponent isn't competing on tournaments and you can use the noble steed to quickly bring home the remaining prizes. The followers tend to congest a deck through the estates and terminal drawing.
Logged

sjelkjd

  • Salvager
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 64
  • Respect: +32
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2012, 08:16:07 pm »
0

I wouldn't take too much away from this game.  He had one extra turn, in which he scored 11 net points, and he won by 9 points.  You guys played basically the same strategy and you can probably describe most of the reason for your loss to shuffle luck and first turn advantage.  For example, on your turn 8, he has his province in hand which blocks your tournament, where you might have been able to make it to $8 had you been able to draw a card and get the +$1. 

It's not clear that picking trusty steed vs. followers caused you to lose the game, because the +$2 on that turn let you buy another province, where the followers may have drawn dead into actions or otherwise failed to get the extra money you needed to hit $8.  Though I agree that in general followers is probably a stronger play for this board.  Steed can be very powerful on boards with strong terminals and no villages.

The other play I think was a bit questionable on your part was using steed to get 4 silvers and forcing a reshuffle.  You had just reshuffled before that and had the following in your discard: 4 coppers, 2 provinces, 1 tournament, 1 trusty steed, 1 silver.  Your deck therefore had 3 estates, 2 lab, stables, gold, 2 tournament, 3 copper.  I think that's better than the combined deck you get with your discard and the 4 silvers(because of the labs & gold).  It may have been better to just take +$2 and +2 actions so you don't reshuffle.  But it's pretty close.
Logged

cherdano

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 166
  • Respect: +54
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2012, 10:24:55 am »
0

It seems a common mistake to choose Trusty Steed when Followers is better - I have won many games when my opponent got the first prize and chose Trusty Steed, I got the second and chose Followers.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: What's the strategy for Trusty Steed?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2012, 03:05:30 am »
0

A lot of the times people simply play Trusty Steed for the +2 Cards, not even needing the actions. In that case, it's no better than a Moat!
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.053 seconds with 20 queries.