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kylar

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2015, 11:14:44 pm »
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I'll suggest starting the division leader off with 1 free win in a best of six match. That guarantees at least 3 good competitive games.

   That seems like it still has the problem Stef is worried about where there is no incentive to do as well as possible. Maybe 1 free win for each 2 games that the leader is ahead? That makes the runaways closer and does not change much for the matches that are already close.
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Voltaire

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2015, 11:24:39 pm »
0

The central problem is any playoff cheapens the regular season, but pretty much every sport does them anyway because they're so exciting/fun. I think the current system is a nice balance of the two opposite goals. Sometimes, like the past few seasons, the result is "pre-determined" and I think that's fine. It's quaint. When baseball first began teams played the bottom of the ninth even if the home team was winning. "Gentleman's game" and all that. The championship match is 6 high-quality games of Dominion with a big spotlight on it and I think that's enough. Most of the time they'll matter, anyway.

I also wouldn't begrudge the 2 championship players if they wanted to stop playing after a point where it's irrelevant, but I doubt most anyone in the league would do that.
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Titandrake

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2015, 02:19:46 am »
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I always thought of the championship match as an exhibition match, and never gave any consideration to how it could affect final standings. Treating the champsionship match as part of the standings always felt like it was breaking symmetry for the sake of having the match. That's not an entirely bad thing, since it gives incentives for the players to play their best. But on the other hand, once you have a match between the top 2 players of division A, I'd think natural competitiveness and drive to win means you don't need any more motivation.

Let's put it this way: it can be hard to find time to watch streams of games during the league because these games are scheduled whenever the players are available. The championship match is usually scheduled at some time during the weekend that is easier to make, and since it's a spectacle you can also count on a larger audience which makes things more fun. So, I want something like the championship match to continue, but I don't want the results of that match to actually change the standings. It's a round robin structure; you had your chance during the main season, this is just for fun.
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Burning Skull

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2015, 05:10:31 pm »
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Doubling the points seems to be a very nice solution.

Also, while we are discussing that, my little idea: instead of #1 playing vs #2 let #1 play vs #5 and demote if losing. Even with the doubled match points it would be hard to lose this for #1, but that last match would gain a lot of tense.

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2015, 04:53:11 pm »
+9

My two-seconds-of-thought suggestion as an alternative to doubling points:

Rather than the championship match being a set number of games, make it first to X points, where X is 3 more than the score of the regular season leader (or whatever number seems best). This season, dudeabides would have to get 8 points before Mic Qsenoch gets 3, and the match could last anywhere from 3 to 11 games. This gives the challenger more of a chance (and someone overcoming a large deficit would be memorable) while still giving a deserved advantage to the dominant regular season performance. (The players could of course agree to play a minimum of 6 for exhibition purposes even if the match is over by then.)
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sc0UT

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2015, 03:32:25 pm »
0

make it first to X points, where X is 3 more than the score of the regular season leader (or whatever number seems best). This season, dudeabides would have to get 8 points before Mic Qsenoch gets 3, and the match could last anywhere from 3 to 11 games.

CM with won games counted twice and your suggestion can be ok in respect to reward the player's performance. The question is, how do you handle 11 games? Playing many games are in general a question of time and endurance of mental power. I am not a dominion pro and do not play regulary, so I can only guess that 11 intense games are no fun or even demolishing. Is a 6-blocksplit an acceptable solution (e.g. 1h break or 1d break after every 6 games played)? I don't know.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2015, 03:33:57 pm »
+2

11 game matches are nightmares in my experience.
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mith

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2015, 01:33:32 pm »
+1

11 games is the worst case here, though (and would require 7.5-2.5, about a 2% chance with evenly matched players and a 5% draw rate). Most matches would still be over by 6 games even with the large point differential, and about 5/6 by 8 games. Of the 6 matches so far, only the first would have gone longer than 6 games given the way the matches actually played out (a first to 22 in season 3 would have stood at Yed 21-21.5 Stef after the 6 games they played, so it would have required the maximum of 7).

For season 8, the challenger win probabilities:

Fixed 6 Games (Current System): 1.9%
First to 23: 5.4% (max 11 games)
Fixed 6 Games (Double Points in CM): 12.6%
First to 25 (Double Points in CM): 19.4% (max 7 games)

(Ok, I've spent more than two seconds on this now.)
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Donald X.

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2015, 08:54:19 pm »
+6

I feel like it shouldn't be the top two A's playing. They already played each other this season. It should be the top A and top B. And if so then obv. the score is just for that match rather than adding in how they did over the season. It could also be a little tournament among division winners although that takes longer.

I mean winning A just means you won A. No-one outside of A got to play you. You put in whatever work to get to A in previous seasons, but now, this past season, you just played other A's. So playing the winning B feels more like you are a champion; you beat the guy who beat those other guys.
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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2015, 03:12:08 am »
+3

Donald, don't you think you could join the league for a season or two? :)

Rubby

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2015, 10:47:46 am »
+4

I feel like it shouldn't be the top two A's playing. They already played each other this season. It should be the top A and top B. And if so then obv. the score is just for that match rather than adding in how they did over the season. It could also be a little tournament among division winners although that takes longer.

I mean winning A just means you won A. No-one outside of A got to play you. You put in whatever work to get to A in previous seasons, but now, this past season, you just played other A's. So playing the winning B feels more like you are a champion; you beat the guy who beat those other guys.

But this makes less sense than having two A divisions (as suggested by DG).

For one thing there are two B divisions - I guess you could have a playoff match to determine which B winner plays the A winner. But a more significant problem with the A-winner-vs-B-winner format is that it can easily create incentive to demote from A league, as people figure that going through B is an easier path to the championship match. Another problem is that it makes the championship match much less likely to feature the two truly best players.
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Donald X.

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2015, 04:16:21 pm »
0

I feel like it shouldn't be the top two A's playing. They already played each other this season. It should be the top A and top B. And if so then obv. the score is just for that match rather than adding in how they did over the season. It could also be a little tournament among division winners although that takes longer.

I mean winning A just means you won A. No-one outside of A got to play you. You put in whatever work to get to A in previous seasons, but now, this past season, you just played other A's. So playing the winning B feels more like you are a champion; you beat the guy who beat those other guys.
But this makes less sense than having two A divisions (as suggested by DG).

For one thing there are two B divisions - I guess you could have a playoff match to determine which B winner plays the A winner. But a more significant problem with the A-winner-vs-B-winner format is that it can easily create incentive to demote from A league, as people figure that going through B is an easier path to the championship match. Another problem is that it makes the championship match much less likely to feature the two truly best players.
I am going to guess that B1 and B2 are supposed to be at the same level, rather than B1 being a rung up, since otherwise it's just a question of what you call B1 and why would you care about that.

In which case, okay, two A's, acceptable.
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-Stef-

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2015, 06:23:43 am »
+1

I'd like to revive this discussion and possibly change the rules this time (we have another week before season 10 starts). I've written down a proposal, even though I'm not 100% sure I like it myself. Honestly I'm just fine with the way it is, just suggesting this because I like the idea of listening to people.

lead         leader requires   challenger requires
0 - 0.533.5
1 - 2.534.5
3 - 4.535.5
5 - 6.52.56
7+26.5

It would of course still be an uphill battle for whoever is behind, but not as impossible as it sometimes has been with the current set of rules.
Would you consider this an improvement?
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2015, 07:41:34 am »
0

Am I missing something? The challenger would need even more wins under this system than before. Having a 1 deficit, you would need a 4-2 before, now you need 4,5? What even happens when the challenger gets to 3 or 3,5 (nobody reaches the requirements)?
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-Stef-

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2015, 07:49:24 am »
0

Am I missing something? The challenger would need even more wins under this system than before. Having a 1 deficit, you would need a 4-2 before, now you need 4,5? What even happens when the challenger gets to 3 or 3,5 (nobody reaches the requirements)?

It would no longer be "play 6 games" but "play on until either player reaches the requirement"
So yes challenger might need more, but so does the leader. The match could take a little longer but it also could be over quickly.

If I got some of the numbers wrong... feel free to suggest improvements :)
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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2015, 08:03:11 am »
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I'm fine with the way it is, but I think this proposal is better. I'm not sure if it's worth making it that much more complicated, though.
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Voltaire

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2015, 09:46:05 am »
0

My two-seconds-of-thought suggestion as an alternative to doubling points:

Rather than the championship match being a set number of games, make it first to X points, where X is 3 more than the score of the regular season leader (or whatever number seems best). This season, dudeabides would have to get 8 points before Mic Qsenoch gets 3, and the match could last anywhere from 3 to 11 games. This gives the challenger more of a chance (and someone overcoming a large deficit would be memorable) while still giving a deserved advantage to the dominant regular season performance. (The players could of course agree to play a minimum of 6 for exhibition purposes even if the match is over by then.)

I still think this is the best proposal if we want to change things. I'm also fine with things staying the same.
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funkdoc

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2015, 10:52:32 am »
0

i'm still biggest on the two A groups myself

so in competitive gaming, the organization Major League Gaming uses a "continuation" rule that's similar to some of the suggestions here.  all sets are 3/5 games in MLG, but if two people play each other twice (because double-elimination) then it's the first to 6 wins total.  and you know what?

everyone *despises* that rule.  i don't know anyone outside of the biggest MLG loyalists who actually likes it.  many players love the idea that you can lose to someone, adapt, and get revenge in the losers bracket...and the continuation rule makes that much less likely to happen.  it also kills the excitement for spectators.

i feel like we really, really need an evenly-matched championship game somehow, and two A groups is the only fair method i can think of atm
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 10:53:41 am by funkdoc »
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Voltaire

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2015, 11:18:32 am »
+1

I don't think the league needs an "evenly-matched championship game". The championship itself was an afterthought in the original design. What makes the league great is the focus on the "regular season," and I don't want to see that cheapened. If that means there isn't an excitement for spectators, so be it - that's not a goal of the league (at least not as I see it).
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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2015, 08:27:44 pm »
+2

I don't think the league needs an "evenly-matched championship game". The championship itself was an afterthought in the original design. What makes the league great is the focus on the "regular season," and I don't want to see that cheapened. If that means there isn't an excitement for spectators, so be it - that's not a goal of the league (at least not as I see it).

I like it the way it is. If someone pwns the regular season then they deserve an associated advantage in the championship. The format of the league doesn't lend itself to "one big match" or big events -- we just kind of tack that on for-funsies and personally I don't think making that better is worth compromising the way the league is structured.

If you want "one big match" then we'll be doing an F.DS championship soon anyways, so we'll get our fix of that. :)

But I'm just one person. I'll live with whatever we come up with.
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SCSN

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2015, 11:56:31 pm »
0

I don't think the league needs an "evenly-matched championship game". The championship itself was an afterthought in the original design. What makes the league great is the focus on the "regular season," and I don't want to see that cheapened. If that means there isn't an excitement for spectators, so be it - that's not a goal of the league (at least not as I see it).

It would be absolutely thrilling if the league would focus on the regular season, but the only way to do that is, you know, to actually do it! I.e. ditch the championship match altogether and possibly decrease the 2-week break between seasons to 1 week, so we even see more regular seasons in any given year.

What we have right now is an awfully half-baked compromise between a focus on the regular season and a spectacle at the end, and, like all awfully half-baked compromises, it fails to achieve either objective.

If someone pwns the regular season then they deserve an associated advantage in the championship.

If the point is to focus on the regular season that's much less than he deserves: someone who pwns the regular season would deserve to win the league.

I would really like to see a clear choice being made: either focus on the regular season and then actually focus on the regular season, or include a spectacle at the end and have it actually be a spectacle.
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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2015, 12:08:48 am »
+2

Underwater Dominion would be a cool spectacle
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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2015, 01:05:07 pm »
0

I'd like to revive this discussion and possibly change the rules this time (we have another week before season 10 starts). I've written down a proposal, even though I'm not 100% sure I like it myself. Honestly I'm just fine with the way it is, just suggesting this because I like the idea of listening to people.

lead         leader requires   challenger requires
0 - 0.533.5
1 - 2.534.5
3 - 4.535.5
5 - 6.52.56
7+26.5

It would of course still be an uphill battle for whoever is behind, but not as impossible as it sometimes has been with the current set of rules.
Would you consider this an improvement?

This is basically the first to X (double CM) proposal with a cap on total possible games (8) and a bit more advantage to the leader to avoid ties. This is what it looks like if you make it a little more precise:

0: Leader (3), Challenger (3) - If regular season tie was broken by head-to-head Leader has advantage in the Game 6 tied situation (2.5-2.5 followed by another draw; 3-2 or 2-3 would already be a win for someone); otherwise just play a Game 7 to decide it.
0.5-1: Leader (3), Challenger (3.5)
1.5-2: Leader (3), Challenger (4) - Challenger wins if they both get there Game 7. (That is, 2.5-3.5 followed by a draw. 2-4 would already be a Challenger win, 3-3 would already be a Leader win.)
2.5-3: Leader (3), Challenger (4.5)
3.5-4: Leader (3), Challenger (5) - Challenger wins if they both get there Game 8.
4.5-5: Leader (3), Challenger (5.5)
5.5-6: Leader (2.5), Challenger (5.5) - Challenger wins if they both get there Game 8.
6.5-7: Leader (2.5), Challenger (6)
7.5-8: Leader (2), Challenger (6) - Challenger wins if they both get there Game 8.
8.5+: Leader (2), Challenger (6.5)

(In the 2, 4, 6, 8 point lead situations, really after 7 or 8 games there is a tie on points with CM points doubled; I have chosen to award that to the challenger as having performed better in the championship match, and for simplicity, but you could award those to the Leader or require a tiebreaker instead. These situations would be quite unlikely to happen because of the draws required.)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 01:15:11 pm by mith »
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Donald X.

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Re: Championship match discussion
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2015, 09:46:04 pm »
+4

You could have an invitational.

The winner of the league A division wins the league, that's it for that.

Then there is an invitational tournament to provide a spectacle. Probably really small which means probably 4 people. You invite the winner of the league, the next best performer in the league ignoring division (with division as a tiebreaker - so, the highest 6-0 if there is one). Then you invite two other people somehow. Highest ranked online player not in the league not already invited? Someone voted in? Two high-ranked non-league online players would be fine. Of course they have to want to do it.

The tournament is say a round-robin using the custom kingdoms. You play maybe two games against each other player, that's 6 games, an acceptable length. If you need a tiebreaker at that point you play tiebreaker games. If you want you can deal with an N-way tie in one game by having a multiplayer game.
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