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Author Topic: Play area  (Read 12445 times)

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mattmillburn

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Play area
« on: June 22, 2015, 01:00:06 am »
+1

The basic rules state that when you play an action, you put the card face up in the play area. When you play a treasure, you also put the card in the play area. Do the cards played in the play area need to be visible to the other players or can your play area be hidden from others? Also, when you play a treasure to buy a card are you required to allow other players to see your treasures? Or can you just buy your card and put your treasures into the discard pile?
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Seprix

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Re: Play area
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2015, 01:10:40 am »
0

The basic rules state that when you play an action, you put the card face up in the play area. When you play a treasure, you also put the card in the play area. Do the cards played in the play area need to be visible to the other players or can your play area be hidden from others? Also, when you play a treasure to buy a card are you required to allow other players to see your treasures? Or can you just buy your card and put your treasures into the discard pile?

If your play area is not visible to other players, try proving you're not playing cards you don't have. You need it to be visible. You have to show your treasures via playing them, or else you could buy 10000 Provinces and put the burden of proof into the trash can.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Play area
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2015, 01:23:53 am »
+4

The rules state that your "play area" is the area nearest to you on the table.
Actions and treasures are played face-up in your play area.

It is an impressive act of mental gymnastics to see a rule that tells you to play cards face up on the table and conclude that it doesn't actually require your opponents to see them.

You're not a lawyer by any chance?
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mattmillburn

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Re: Play area
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2015, 01:28:30 am »
+2

Quote
It is an impressive act of mental gymnastics to see a rule that tells you to play cards face up on the table and conclude that it doesn't actually require your opponents to see them.

You're not a lawyer by any chance?

I am not. I agree with you that it is obvious. I was trying to prove to my opponent that she needed to show me her treasures when she bought a card.
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Donald X.

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Re: Play area
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2015, 01:49:08 am »
+6

Quote
It is an impressive act of mental gymnastics to see a rule that tells you to play cards face up on the table and conclude that it doesn't actually require your opponents to see them.

You're not a lawyer by any chance?

I am not. I agree with you that it is obvious. I was trying to prove to my opponent that she needed to show me her treasures when she bought a card.
She has to let you see all of the cards she plays, including treasures.
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mattmillburn

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Re: Play area
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2015, 01:51:54 am »
0

Quote
She has to let you see all of the cards she plays, including treasures.
Thanks!
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qmech

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Re: Play area
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2015, 02:08:27 am »
0

But you do not have to play (or reveal) all of your Treasures, just enough to generate the amount you want to spend.  It is often sensible to hide the fact that you drew into all of your Gold early in a shuffle.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Play area
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2015, 02:15:12 am »
0

I am not. I agree with you that it is obvious. I was trying to prove to my opponent that she needed to show me her treasures when she bought a card.

If I was playing with someone who tried to pull something like that, they would quickly find themselves on my "people I don't play games with" list.

But you do not have to play (or reveal) all of your Treasures, just enough to generate the amount you want to spend.  It is often sensible to hide the fact that you drew into all of your Gold early in a shuffle.

Yeah, that is an important distinction.
As Donald said, she has to show you all the cards she plays, not all of her cards.

In my clean-up phase I make it a habit to scoop my played cards on top of my unplayed cards before putting them in my discard pile.
That way I don't reveal any of my unplayed cards.
You never want to give your opponent more info than you need to.
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mattmillburn

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Re: Play area
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2015, 02:30:11 am »
+8

Quote
If I was playing with someone who tried to pull something like that, they would quickly find themselves on my "people I don't play games with" list.
I am far too desperate for people to play Dominion with to have such a list.
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qmech

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Re: Play area
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2015, 02:34:17 am »
+11

Quote
If I was playing with someone who tried to pull something like that, they would quickly find themselves on my "people I don't play games with" list.
I am far too desperate for people to play Dominion with to have such a list.
If you're really desperate you could try Goko.
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Re: Play area
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2015, 08:37:43 am »
+8

I was trying to prove to my opponent that she needed to show me her treasures when she bought a card.

Man I hate when people do that.  "Here, let me vaguely flash my cards at you then take a card costing what I say I flashed."
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Deadlock39

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Re: Play area
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2015, 11:02:23 am »
+5

I was trying to prove to my opponent that she needed to show me her treasures when she bought a card.

Man I hate when people do that.  "Here, let me vaguely flash my cards at you then take a card costing what I say I flashed."

This is something I wish I understood. I feel like just about every player I play with does this.  They just look at their hand and say "uh... I have 3 gold[sic], so uh, I'll buy a Silver."  I'm probably doing some something wrong when I teach the game because no one seems to feel like actually playing treasures is something they need to do.

GendoIkari

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Re: Play area
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2015, 11:08:09 am »
0

Note that treasure cards, just like action cards, must be played one at a time. You cannot technically play multiple treasures all at once, though in practice to speed things up people may do that sometimes. But even if they physically just lay down their hand of treasures, there is technically an order to which they are played.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Play area
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2015, 11:15:21 am »
0

I was trying to prove to my opponent that she needed to show me her treasures when she bought a card.

Man I hate when people do that.  "Here, let me vaguely flash my cards at you then take a card costing what I say I flashed."

This is something I wish I understood. I feel like just about every player I play with does this.  They just look at their hand and say "uh... I have 3 gold[sic], so uh, I'll buy a Silver."  I'm probably doing some something wrong when I teach the game because no one seems to feel like actually playing treasures is something they need to do.

You're not doing something wrong. Rather, it appears that some people tend to deliberate given rules under logical, or rational, assumptions, while others just don't. People on this forum, I would assume, have a desire to play correctly and comprehensibly. But casual players rarely think about these things and probably don't want to be bothered with what is "finical" in their eyes.
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Re: Play area
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2015, 11:17:16 am »
+1

I have a hard time convincing people that I play with in real life that they actually need to play their treasures.  People have a tendency to not follow the formal steps "until it matters" (like, in cases where they aren't playing all of their treasures).  Through most of the game they just flash their hand and take a card from the supply, which really bothers me in a pedantic way.

Edit: Well, basically exactly what Deadlock said.
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pingpongsam

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Re: Play area
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2015, 11:34:38 am »
+1

I have discovered that when one slows down and actually plays their cards they often find mistakes and oversights they were literally waving away before.
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AdamH

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Re: Play area
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2015, 11:49:41 am »
+2

At the tournament this weekend, I heard of some rather interesting things people do IRL.

I got a lot of the "I have this much money, I buy this" without showing the hand. I'll only correct that if I'm in the game with them (and I'm sure I'm annoying when I do it).

An interesting one is where everybody plays their turn simultaneously. I have no idea what they do when Militia is in a game.

There was one guy who likes to play his treasures and then his actions. I have no idea how that works if he draws cards with his action.

Of course, I didn't teach any of these people how to play :P
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xyz123

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Re: Play area
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2015, 11:54:23 am »
0

I have a hard time convincing people that I play with in real life that they actually need to play their treasures.  People have a tendency to not follow the formal steps "until it matters" (like, in cases where they aren't playing all of their treasures).  Through most of the game they just flash their hand and take a card from the supply, which really bothers me in a pedantic way.

Edit: Well, basically exactly what Deadlock said.

The "until it mattes" in this case is Horn of Plenty. I have played with people who argue that treasure cards do not count towards it because they are not played.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Play area
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2015, 12:00:19 pm »
0

I was trying to prove to my opponent that she needed to show me her treasures when she bought a card.

Man I hate when people do that.  "Here, let me vaguely flash my cards at you then take a card costing what I say I flashed."

This is something I wish I understood. I feel like just about every player I play with does this.  They just look at their hand and say "uh... I have 3 gold[sic], so uh, I'll buy a Silver."  I'm probably doing some something wrong when I teach the game because no one seems to feel like actually playing treasures is something they need to do.

You're not doing something wrong. Rather, it appears that some people tend to deliberate given rules under logical, or rational, assumptions, while others just don't. People on this forum, I would assume, have a desire to play correctly and comprehensibly. But casual players rarely think about these things and probably don't want to be bothered with what is "finical" in their eyes.

You can't say with certainty that DeadLock isn't doing something wrong unless you've actually seen him teach the game.

I would just be very clear that you have to play the treasures.  The basic reason is so people can confirm how much coin you have to spend.  The advanced reason is that there are cards where it matters that the newbie has yet to see.  If you are explicit about what to do and also give a reasonable explanation why, I find that most people can follow the rules just fine.
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Seprix

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Re: Play area
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2015, 12:01:27 pm »
+1

At the tournament this weekend, I heard of some rather interesting things people do IRL.

I got a lot of the "I have this much money, I buy this" without showing the hand.

An interesting one is where everybody plays their turn simultaneously.

There was one guy who likes to play his treasures and then his actions. I have no idea how that works if he draws cards with his action.

...This really bugs me.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Play area
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2015, 12:02:23 pm »
0

I have a hard time convincing people that I play with in real life that they actually need to play their treasures.  People have a tendency to not follow the formal steps "until it matters" (like, in cases where they aren't playing all of their treasures).  Through most of the game they just flash their hand and take a card from the supply, which really bothers me in a pedantic way.

Edit: Well, basically exactly what Deadlock said.

The "until it mattes" in this case is Horn of Plenty. I have played with people who argue that treasure cards do not count towards it because they are not played.

Bank is an easy counter-argument.  Also note that all the special treasures including HoP say "when you play this".
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Re: Play area
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2015, 12:06:15 pm »
0

I have a hard time convincing people that I play with in real life that they actually need to play their treasures.  People have a tendency to not follow the formal steps "until it matters" (like, in cases where they aren't playing all of their treasures).  Through most of the game they just flash their hand and take a card from the supply, which really bothers me in a pedantic way.

Edit: Well, basically exactly what Deadlock said.

The "until it mattes" in this case is Horn of Plenty. I have played with people who argue that treasure cards do not count towards it because they are not played.

Grand Market would disagree.
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xyz123

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Re: Play area
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2015, 12:38:48 pm »
0

I have a hard time convincing people that I play with in real life that they actually need to play their treasures.  People have a tendency to not follow the formal steps "until it matters" (like, in cases where they aren't playing all of their treasures).  Through most of the game they just flash their hand and take a card from the supply, which really bothers me in a pedantic way.

Edit: Well, basically exactly what Deadlock said.

The "until it mattes" in this case is Horn of Plenty. I have played with people who argue that treasure cards do not count towards it because they are not played.

Grand Market would disagree.

I know so would Counterfeit, Contraband and possibly some others I haven't thought of. I just mentioned HoP because that has happened to me. I did win the argument buy pointing out that the card refers to counting itself.
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mattmillburn

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Re: Play area
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2015, 01:41:33 pm »
+6

Most the time when I request people to show me their cards when they are supposed to they do. Sometimes people offer resistance and get defensive because they say that I think they are cheating and they wouldn't cheat. I say I just want to make sure they did everything right. Everybody makes mistakes sometimes. People have corrected me when I've made a mistake playing Dominion and I have corrected others. Revealing your cards at appropriate times is very important so that errors are not made.
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Re: Play area
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2015, 04:30:27 pm »
+2

What's the problem revealing treasures, why do people act this way? I mean, players have to show all the cards they play in almost every game including cards. Mau Mau, Skat, Rummy, Settlers, Descent etc.

I don't get it. It's a matter of couse. What's wrong with people? :-\
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