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Author Topic: Tavern Brawl Discussion  (Read 94822 times)

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AHoppy

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #150 on: August 06, 2015, 06:52:09 am »
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I'm playing high cost minions, minions with battlecries (like bomb lobber) and sticky guys that become even more sticky (shredder, harvest golem, etc).  2 stormwind champions help a lot because you always have a board.  Undertaker is also kinda cute.
Also be sure to whip out those Sea Giants.
If only I had any...

popsofctown

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #151 on: August 06, 2015, 09:43:08 am »
+2

If you play a cost reduced minion like one from Unstable Portal or Sea Giant, it needs to cost at least 2 to get the deathrattle, but when the deathrattle triggers you will get a minion with a cost based on the minion's in-play cost. 

So draw 5 drops with skill-portal, trade minions until Sea Giant costs 2, play Volcanic Drake before it costs 1, etc.
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KingZog3

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #152 on: August 12, 2015, 05:30:06 pm »
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Are the already recycling Tavern Brawls? It hasn't even been 10 weeks yet and they've already run out of ideas?
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werothegreat

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #153 on: August 12, 2015, 05:39:52 pm »
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Are the already recycling Tavern Brawls? It hasn't even been 10 weeks yet and they've already run out of ideas?

I liked it.  Played Mage with a deck full of spells.  Won fairly easily.  Never got to get my Pryoblast Deathwing, though.  :(
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popsofctown

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #154 on: August 12, 2015, 05:44:37 pm »
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Are the already recycling Tavern Brawls? It hasn't even been 10 weeks yet and they've already run out of ideas?
The tavern brawl design space seems limited, especially for Tavern Brawls that require less work than the Rag vs. Nef fight.  They are probably conserving design space for later.

It still seems like a mistake, this brawl was just a couple weeks ago and a few people will remember the deck they used and just wipe the floor with people.  Bob newplayer who started playing Hearthstone a week ago will be frustrated if it takes him 10 games to get his pack.  Custom deck tavern brawls should have a longer cycle, in fact I'd say the custom deck tavern brawls should each appear once per expansion.  Bringing back a precon brawl would have been smarter.  Like the webspinners one, maybe even let the webspinners preview the new beasts from the next set.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
They really need to make it so there is some tavern brawl available at all times because there is a portion of the playerbase that probably would like to just veg and play them all the time.  Might even be a good idea to have a preconstructed tavern brawl available at all times, even (so there would have to be 2 at a time at least sometimes for that.
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Haddock

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #155 on: August 14, 2015, 07:15:45 am »
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I'm kind of amazed that they're repeating brawls before even doing something as obvious as changing deck size.
Letting people build a 60 card deck with up to 3 copies of things, or limiting it to a 15 card game both seem like such obvious things to try.  Impossible to balance, but that's the point.
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M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
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popsofctown

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #156 on: August 14, 2015, 10:12:54 am »
+2

I'm kind of amazed that they're repeating brawls before even doing something as obvious as changing deck size.
Letting people build a 60 card deck with up to 3 copies of things, or limiting it to a 15 card game both seem like such obvious things to try.  Impossible to balance, but that's the point.
If they made the wrong kind of coding style choices, that could be unexpectedly difficult to do.

I also suspect they might avoid tavern brawls that could accidentally identify flaws in what they have set up, or question status quo too much.  No one is going to get a Giant Banana after their Leper Gnome dies and feel they've raised a question about whether ranked ladder would be a better, more strategic game with Giant Bananas, but deck size changes can raise that question.  Indeed, the probability that 28 or 32 cards is superior to 30 for Hearthstone overall approaches 100%.

If they mess with deck sizes, I imagine they will do something like "You have an 8 card deck, go", where it's obviously not a better format, rather than something like a 60 card deck, which could have serious risk of being funner.  Some of THE MOST POPULAR magic the gathering variants are ones that increase the deck size, and restrict the number of multiples per deck, which is similar to increased deck size (100 card highlander, and its descendant elder dragon highlander, which evolved into duelcommander and sees lots of serious tournament play in France.  Tiny Leaders is another elder dragon highlander descendant that spun off a few tournaments)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 10:14:36 am by popsofctown »
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Haddock

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #157 on: August 14, 2015, 10:34:46 am »
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I'm kind of amazed that they're repeating brawls before even doing something as obvious as changing deck size.
Letting people build a 60 card deck with up to 3 copies of things, or limiting it to a 15 card game both seem like such obvious things to try.  Impossible to balance, but that's the point.
If they made the wrong kind of coding style choices, that could be unexpectedly difficult to do.
I can quite imagine it; don't know enough about Blizzard's development style to know whether they would keep a clean code-base, but you'd hope it would be clean enough to make it a feasible option.  Then again you look at how some of the card interactions don't make intuitive sense and you realise the code must certainly contain a decent amount of bodging.

Indeed, the probability that 28 or 32 cards is superior to 30 for Hearthstone overall approaches 100%.

If they mess with deck sizes, I imagine they will do something like "You have an 8 card deck, go", where it's obviously not a better format, rather than something like a 60 card deck, which could have serious risk of being funner.  Some of THE MOST POPULAR magic the gathering variants are ones that increase the deck size, and restrict the number of multiples per deck, which is similar to increased deck size (100 card highlander, and its descendant elder dragon highlander, which evolved into duelcommander and sees lots of serious tournament play in France.  Tiny Leaders is another elder dragon highlander descendant that spun off a few tournaments)
This is kinda why I suggest it.  Surely one point of the brawl as an idea is to let Blizzard try out some crazy mechanics and see which work or are interesting.  It would be great if one of the brawls was good enough to be worth refining into a whole new game format, wouldn't it?
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The best reason to lynch Haddock is the meltdown we get to witness on the wagon runup. I mean, we should totally wagon him every day just for the lulz.

M Town Wins-Losses (6-2, 75%): 71, 72, 76, 81, 83, 87 - 79, 82.  M Scum Wins-Losses (2-1, 67%): 80, 101 - 70.
RMM Town Wins-Losses (3-1, 75%): 42, 47, 49 - 31.  RMM Scum Wins-Losses (3-3, 50%): 33, 37, 43 - 29, 32, 35.
Modded: M75, M84, RMM38.     Mislynched (M-RMM): None - 42.     Correctly lynched (M-RMM): 101 - 33, 33, 35.       MVPs: RMM37, M87

KingZog3

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #158 on: August 14, 2015, 10:58:56 am »
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Yeah I see no reason why they wouldn't try things to find out if people like it more. That's really only beneficial for them. Sure they need to spend time to code it up, but then people play more. That's what they want. You sound you think it's a conspiracy that they don't want to use brawl to make people have more fun.
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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #159 on: August 14, 2015, 11:27:36 am »
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Yes, I will make my tinfoil hat explicit and say that I think Blizzard conspires to keep the game dumbed down and avoid depth and growth.  I sure hope I'm wrong.  But there's little signs now and then.  The way the ranking system heavily discourages actually getting better at the game: You can climb to 10 consistently every month with a 40% win rate due to win streak system if you just play play play, and then the screen will inform you that you are a very special snowflake.  The way Arena has been repeatedly marginalized and now they are trying to make sure it is no longer the best way to collect new cards, that's because limited formats historically have rewarded skill far more than constructed formats, so Arena was a tool to attract skilled card gaming veterans to bring enthusiasm and steam and stream early on, and now has served its purposes and needs to be phased out.  The way draw power consistently gets nerfed and Gnomish Experimenter and let us know that if you try to increase the skill intensity of the game by increasing the number of cards in your hand you can choose from, you had better let us luck tax you to keep that in check, I can wait and fish all day man.

It's all about keeping the game approachable.  Part of what makes the game lucrative is the ability to play it and not feel like you are bad at it.  If they add too much strategy, it will be possible to be good at it, and therefore possible to be bad it.  You will not spend money on the game if you feel that you are bad at it.  This stuff is very important. 
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werothegreat

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #160 on: August 14, 2015, 11:29:17 am »
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I like that they're repeating things.  It gives people a chance to try them who weren't playing the first time around.
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popsofctown

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #161 on: August 14, 2015, 11:55:08 am »
+1

Anyone wanna mirror Lorewalker Cho and Gangups and see if the game can handle a 60 card deck as-is?  Maybe they did go ahead and handle that part of it when they added gangup or Malorne. (there'd still be the initialization question)
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markusin

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #162 on: August 14, 2015, 11:57:16 am »
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I'd say it's more that Blizzard is getting carried away with making the game casual. Deck building is normally supposed to be really difficult, but Blizzard makes it kind of easy with combo's generally being weaker than pure "value" cards. The want it to be easy. I think it's good that there's no reliable 1st turn win strategies like in other CCGs, but the card interactions are not strong enough to consistently be better than "lol just put Shredder and Dr. Boom in your deck and get to rank 10". It's telling that in the few instances where a strong combo deck emerges, barely anything competes and the combo deck gets nerfed. It happened with Miracle Rogue, and now we have a legitimate combo deck with Grim Patron and nothing competes well against it because no one else has access to combos with that consistency.

It looks like Blizzard would rather have zero Grim Patron strong decks than like ten such decks competing against each other, the latter being what you'd expect from M:tG or something.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 11:58:50 am by markusin »
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markusin

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #163 on: August 14, 2015, 11:58:12 am »
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Anyone wanna mirror Lorewalker Cho and Gangups and see if the game can handle a 60 card deck as-is?  Maybe they did go ahead and handle that part of it when they added gangup or Malorne. (there'd still be the initialization question)

I don't have much time for that this weekend.
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werothegreat

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #164 on: August 14, 2015, 12:12:16 pm »
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This is why Mage is, and will remain, the best class: one Flamestrike destroys a gang of Patrons.
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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #165 on: August 14, 2015, 12:43:35 pm »
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I think it's good that there's no reliable 1st turn win strategies like in other CCGs, but the card interactions are not strong enough to consistently be better than "lol just put Shredder and Dr. Boom in your deck and get to rank 10". It's telling that in the few instances where a strong combo deck emerges, barely anything competes and the combo deck gets nerfed. It happened with Miracle Rogue, and now we have a legitimate combo deck with Grim Patron and nothing competes well against it because no one else has access to combos with that consistency.
1st thing, almost no CCGs provide 1st turn win strategies.  The only formats of Magic the Gathering that provide first turn win strategies are Legacy and Vintage, and those formats are very marginalized and minimally supported.  Magic also cracks down a little heavier on turn 4 wins and turn 5 wins seemingly every year.  The designers are very much against 1st turn wins.  If I attended every sanctioned magic event in a 25 mile radius this year, I would lose to 0 1st turn wins and 1,170 wins that happened turn 2 or later.  Most other CCGs, every CCG I've come into contact with, also doesn't allow for 1st turn wins.  (I think Netrunner allows 1st turn losses, lol, but that doesn't count).  Hearthstone is not treading new ground by restricting fast instakill combos, that's very much a part of every CCG designer's philosophy now and has been for a while.

2nd thing, it's very untrue that "barely anything competes with the combo deck".  Leeroy Rogue drew so much hate from the meta that it had to reinvent itself as Malygos Rogue, and then THAT got so much hate that all Gadgetzan Rogue quickly became third or fourth best to play. 
Right now, Handlock already has a better OTK than Grim Patron OTK, Arcane Golem-PO-PO-Faceless.  And handlock unarguably has more reliable draw power.  So it's an oversimplification to say that whatever deck has the best OTK at any point in time is the best deck and to an extent that no other deck can compete, the other characteristics of the deck clearly matter.  Warrior just does a really good job of staying alive right now, and combo is just a better wincon than control finishers right now with Ragnaros shooting implosion tokens, Sylvanas stealing Silver Hand Recruits, and the class legendary offering an inferior version of the same strategy. 
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markusin

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #166 on: August 14, 2015, 01:02:49 pm »
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I think it's good that there's no reliable 1st turn win strategies like in other CCGs, but the card interactions are not strong enough to consistently be better than "lol just put Shredder and Dr. Boom in your deck and get to rank 10". It's telling that in the few instances where a strong combo deck emerges, barely anything competes and the combo deck gets nerfed. It happened with Miracle Rogue, and now we have a legitimate combo deck with Grim Patron and nothing competes well against it because no one else has access to combos with that consistency.
1st thing, almost no CCGs provide 1st turn win strategies.  The only formats of Magic the Gathering that provide first turn win strategies are Legacy and Vintage, and those formats are very marginalized and minimally supported.  Magic also cracks down a little heavier on turn 4 wins and turn 5 wins seemingly every year.  The designers are very much against 1st turn wins.  If I attended every sanctioned magic event in a 25 mile radius this year, I would lose to 0 1st turn wins and 1,170 wins that happened turn 2 or later.  Most other CCGs, every CCG I've come into contact with, also doesn't allow for 1st turn wins.  (I think Netrunner allows 1st turn losses, lol, but that doesn't count).  Hearthstone is not treading new ground by restricting fast instakill combos, that's very much a part of every CCG designer's philosophy now and has been for a while.

2nd thing, it's very untrue that "barely anything competes with the combo deck".  Leeroy Rogue drew so much hate from the meta that it had to reinvent itself as Malygos Rogue, and then THAT got so much hate that all Gadgetzan Rogue quickly became third or fourth best to play. 
Right now, Handlock already has a better OTK than Grim Patron OTK, Arcane Golem-PO-PO-Faceless.  And handlock unarguably has more reliable draw power.  So it's an oversimplification to say that whatever deck has the best OTK at any point in time is the best deck and to an extent that no other deck can compete, the other characteristics of the deck clearly matter.  Warrior just does a really good job of staying alive right now, and combo is just a better wincon than control finishers right now with Ragnaros shooting implosion tokens, Sylvanas stealing Silver Hand Recruits, and the class legendary offering an inferior version of the same strategy.

I know that 1st turn kills aren't the norm now (or even exist) in M:tG, but there was a time, in legacy as you say, where it was possible. I also think it's possible in Yu-gi-oh, but that game is messed up anyway.

When I say combo deck, I mean the deck as a whole that happens to contain a combo. The OTK condition itself doesn't make the combo deck powerful, but how easy it is to set it up without dying. Grim Patron happens to be very good at that, but not to the extent that it can always stop heavy aggro or Handlock.

It seems to me that the community in Hearthstone is very vocal about its dislike for anything "unfair" like Handlock or Miracle Rogue or Face Hunter or whatever, when in reality the unfairness is necessary for a competitive deck. I guess Blizzard knows better than to liberally nerf cards and break every "owerpowered" deck whenever they pop up.

The way I see it, the decision to mostly leave powerful decks be goes against the goal to make Hearthstone the ultimate casual game. I hope the development team recognizes that Hearthstone has potential to allow a very competitive and hardcore/serious player base to flourish. If they do, then I think they shouldn't neglect formats like draft Arena in favor of a one-size-fits-all constructed mode or something.
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popsofctown

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #167 on: August 14, 2015, 01:30:16 pm »
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I do appreciate that development always is open about the fact they are nerfing something that isn't broken.

Freeze mage was another thing they nerfed that wasn't broken, which wasn't a combo deck at all.  It was a confusing nerf, since Freeze Mage still exists, just weaker, whereas the OTK nerfs are always so dramatic that the thing that was decided to be unfun is excised entirely.

I think if they actually just changed it to where you have to click on your minions to make them shake off the ice as their action for the turn, that people would psychologically feel less locked out of playing Hearthstone and they wouldn't have needed to nerf it at all.
(also, that idea made me realize that the tooltip for Freeze vs. Windfury seems contradictory, you should get 1 attack).
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Jorbles

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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #168 on: August 14, 2015, 01:44:15 pm »
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I think if they actually just changed it to where you have to click on your minions to make them shake off the ice as their action for the turn, that people would psychologically feel less locked out of playing Hearthstone and they wouldn't have needed to nerf it at all.
(also, that idea made me realize that the tooltip for Freeze vs. Windfury seems contradictory, you should get 1 attack).

This would just make people salty that now they have to click it and they forgot to once and they used to not have to click it! zomg!

If they'd made freeze work that way from the start it'd be fine, but if they changed it to work that way now people would "riot".
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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #169 on: August 14, 2015, 02:06:31 pm »
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This is why Mage is, and will remain, the best class: one Flamestrike destroys a gang of Patrons.

Flamestrike is a funny card.  It's undoubtedly powerful, but with so much aggro on ladder you need to be really defensive to play it.  So it's only really played in Freeze or offbeat control variants.

pops, does Flamestrike give your Patrons any trouble?
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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #170 on: August 14, 2015, 03:42:35 pm »
+1

I played my last 5 ladder games using a mage with flamestrike after 50 consecutive patron warrior games... so you tell me.

Yeah, Flamestrike can wreck a patron warrior.  You can't really run cards that accomplish anything against hypathetical flamestrikes, you're all 4 health minions.  If the mage uses all their cards as removal (even Fireball on a small creature, if necessary!) and then flamestrikes any board that requires a big answer, the mage can literally get a kill off fatigue without even attacking with minions.  It's frustrating.  I threw Ysera, then Sneed's (better) because I was frustrated by attrition from Mage and Priest, but those cards are off course bad against other classes and not actually what I should be doing, I should be sucking up the losses.  (an aggro-as-all-hell zoo pulled PO sylvanas out of nowhere on my sneed's, FML..)
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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #171 on: August 19, 2015, 11:21:52 am »
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Brawl is really one-sided in Medivh favor unfortunately
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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #172 on: August 19, 2015, 11:36:21 am »
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Hunters don't synergize with the set's control mechanic enough to crush Medivh?  No waaaaaay
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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #173 on: August 19, 2015, 12:26:43 pm »
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Brawl is really one-sided in Medivh favor unfortunately
Not all that surprising. I was more excited about playing with Hunter for this Brawl because we kind of already know what Inspire Mage is all about after it was featured on stream a couple of times. Joust decks haven't been featured yet.
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Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« Reply #174 on: August 19, 2015, 02:11:20 pm »
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I feel like if a joust deck ends up being a thing, it won't be Hunter.
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