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[Seprix]

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150616/log.54109627e4b0750ebc1f6911.1434514383680.txt

Code: [Select]

Vineyard, Crossroads, Lighthouse, Storeroom, Cutpurse, JackOfAllTrades, Inn, Laboratory, Merchant Ship, Outpost

This flies in the face of everything I was ever taught in Dominion. How on earth did this guy win? I feel like he got VERY lucky, but that can't be it, can it?

My Jacks collided every single time. That hurt for sure. But I guess 1st Duchy was more important than 3rd Gold?

[GendoIkari]

Although my Dominion skills are quite rusty, I think ignoring Vineyards is rarely good.

[scott_pilgrim]

I'm rusty too but I think this is a clear Vineyard board.  Pick up a single Jack probably and then a few Storerooms, lots of Lighthouses, and some Crossroads.  I don't think your opponent was focused enough, so I think you could have easily beat him just by going after cheap actions and Vineyards more aggressively than he did.

Vineyard is crazy strong.  You have to have a really good reason to not go for it.  The presence of a certain card (in this case Jack) is never a reason not to go for Vineyard (except for Rebuild, maybe there are other exceptions but they would be rare).  Something like "no cheap actions" would be a good reason not to go for Vineyard, but that's not the case here.  Storeroom lets you pick up two $2's in one turn, and also helps you sift through to your Potion(s).  Lighthouse is a cheap non-terminal and Crossroads is a cheap pseudo-non-terminal, so those are all great things for Vineyard.

[pubby]

Your opponent didn't play it optimally, but they certainly honed-in on the better strategy here.

Here's another game on this kingdom:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150616/log.539cc5ebe4b09ac4e56c3e3d.1434519496811.txt

I wouldn't add Jack or Lighthouse to this.

[Seprix]

Your opponent didn't play it optimally, but they certainly honed-in on the better strategy here.

Here's another game on this kingdom:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150616/log.539cc5ebe4b09ac4e56c3e3d.1434519496811.txt

I wouldn't add Jack or Lighthouse to this.

How are you so good at this game? How long have you been playing?

[Dingan]

Yes, clearly a Vineyards game.  You have good draw (Lab), villages, multi-buy (SR and Outpost), and decent sifting (SR, Inn).  Even Crossroads can be a reliable draw, as long as you already have enough Labs for support to get the green in your hand.  I can see how double-Jack is tempting, because double-Jack strategies when there are no attack cards to slow it down can pile-drive the Provinces pretty quickly.  But if that's the case, then they're not contesting your Vineyards, during which you should be able to pretty easily get them up to at least 6vp each.  And you'd have better pile control.

So yeah, "How. How...!? HOW!!!!!!?" = Vineyards

[Awaclus]

This flies in the face of everything I was ever taught in Dominion.

I think you need to forget a lot of those things. Double JoaT is hardly ever a good strategy.

[ehunt]

not to pile on, but just to give a sense of the gravity of the situation:

i'd go for vineyards on this board even if crossroads and lighthouse were replaced by adventurer and farmland.

give me back crossroads and lighthouse, and i'd go for vineyards even if storeroom were replaced by woodcutter.

in fact, i'd consider vineyards even with support as bad as woodcutter/secret chamber (actually secret chamber probably isn't even the worst 2 for vineyards, but i can't think of something worse right now because they're all so good).

i'd put vineyards just a little below goons in terms of how likely it is that this card will dramatically warp final scores and both players must play the entire game around it. certainly far above all other alternate vp cards.

[clb]

What is the consensus on when it is a good idea to get a second Potion in Vineyards games? I would have been temped in this game to get a second Potion, get an Outpost before my first Lab, and buy Storeroom and Lighthouse/Crossroad on $5 to increase my action card count. Are any of those reasonably good ideas?

[ConMan]

What is the consensus on when it is a good idea to get a second Potion in Vineyards games? I would have been temped in this game to get a second Potion, get an Outpost before my first Lab, and buy Storeroom and Lighthouse/Crossroad on $5 to increase my action card count. Are any of those reasonably good ideas?

I would probably grab a second potion. Especially with Storeroom, if you wind up with both of them in hand you can choose between double-Vineyards or discarding one for money, which is brilliant for increasing control over the piles. Outpost is probably good, although then you'd want something to really help your handsize on an Outpost turn (either Jack or a bunch of Labs) since most of the other key cards are not so great with the reduced hand.

[ehunt]

What is the consensus on when it is a good idea to get a second Potion in Vineyards games? I would have been temped in this game to get a second Potion, get an Outpost before my first Lab, and buy Storeroom and Lighthouse/Crossroad on $5 to increase my action card count. Are any of those reasonably good ideas?

I don't know the consensus. My feeling is that 2+ is nearly always right, except in games you are going to win anyway. More precisely, if you are competing for vineyards, you basically always want it. If you're not, it's still key to help you get all the vineyards before the game ends (and the opportunity cost is very little if you're not trying to hit 5/6/8 price points -- it's just replacing an action card whose primary purpose was to help you get to your potion). The only time you might not want two is if your opponent isn't competing for vineyards and there's no risk your opponent can buy all the provinces before you can buy the vineyards, but again I describe this as a board you are going to win anyway. With ample +buy, 3+ potions isn't ridiculous, especially if you can TfB them later.

[GendoIkari]

What is the consensus on when it is a good idea to get a second Potion in Vineyards games? I would have been temped in this game to get a second Potion, get an Outpost before my first Lab, and buy Storeroom and Lighthouse/Crossroad on $5 to increase my action card count. Are any of those reasonably good ideas?

Probably depends on how much +buy is available, but most of the Potion games I remember went like this...

1. Don't buy a single Potion while I just build an engine that has lots of action cards in it, and can produce several buys.
2. Buy 3-4 Potions on a single turn.
3. Drain the Vineyards.

[luser]

That board doesn't look like obvious vineyard one. Vineyards are one of most overrated cards as beginners go from 'what? vineyard?' to 'vineyard is awesome.' stage.

While vineyard slog will likely win versus bm that needs drain all provinces it will also likely lose to engine. When engine is possible vineyards aren't that good. With engine should delay buying potion until you could reliably draw deck. Then its often better to win by emptying piles and buying four province instead.

I would disagree and say that here crossroads were essential for vineyard, They allowed wins below by drawing and not being choked by green.

Here without crossroads I would bet that vineyard would be defeated by bm'ish strategy of opening storeroom/jack and getting all lighthouses which are much better than silver when combined with jack. On 5 get inn to setup good hand next turn.
I don't see how would vineyard player find enough points to be competitive.

Here crossroads-storeroom is combo. It would work better with gardens/silk road than vineyard but also vineyard gives draw.

Here I would definitely open double storeroom to get lighthouses and crossroads, lh are needed to reach 5 to get labs for engine. Lab is better than outpost here as you cannot do much with three card hand. I am not sure if I should get potion or not as this will end on piles so game would be reactive on what opponent played.

[Awaclus]

While vineyard slog will likely win versus bm that needs drain all provinces it will also likely lose to engine. When engine is possible vineyards aren't that good.

Well, yeah, a Vineyard engine is probably better than a Vineyard slog. It doesn't imply that Vineyards aren't good though.