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Author Topic: Online game log display  (Read 18634 times)

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Voltaire

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Online game log display
« on: June 16, 2015, 12:27:31 am »
+1

So I put this in "Feedback/Suggestions" over at Making Fun and encountered some resistance, and I'm wondering, am I in the minority? Hence this poll, because I'm curious. This question is about in-game logs visible during a game of Dominion, not the same log when viewed after a game.

I'm thinking some of this split comes from streamers vs. non-streamers and casual vs. competitive, but I'm unsure.

EDIT: Didn't mean to make this a private poll. You can still see the results, just not who voted what. Sorry.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2015, 02:13:42 am »
+2

I'm a fan of the full log. Playing the game on fast, it is easy to miss something the other player did a few turns or forget what happened.
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SCSN

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2015, 02:33:23 am »
+2

Full log for sure.

While I can see where people who want a "pure" experience of no point-counters and no logs are coming from, I can't possibly fathom why you would be okay with a log that displays 5 turns but object to one showing 10.

And to pre-empt the obligatory "but Iso did blablabla...": iso did actually display the full log whenever the point-counter was enabled, and hid things only when it wasn't because a full log effectively includes a point counter, albeit a very cumbersome one.
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Voltaire

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2015, 02:48:05 am »
0

While I can see where people who want a "pure" experience of no point-counters and no logs are coming from, I can't possibly fathom why you would be okay with a log that displays 5 turns but object to one showing 10.

Because a shorter number (3 or so, which I think was iso) is enough for you to figure out what you missed if you got distracted, or went to another tab, or whatever. Which is the point of showing you any of the log in the first place in the middle of the game. 5+, 10+, etc is just reconstructing most of the game, and at that point it's essentially a full log.

tl;dr 5 is less than 10. Anything else is a disingenuous slippery-slope argument.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 03:00:03 am by Voltaire »
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SCSN

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2015, 02:55:12 am »
0

But then just your opponent's previous turn would be enough, no? Why do you need 3-5?

And just as some people like to argue that manually counting points is part of the required skillset to play the game well, one could argue that paying attention and not tabbing away is part of this skillset too. The "partial log" argument feels weird and inconsistent to me.
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Voltaire

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2015, 03:00:44 am »
+2

But then just your opponent's previous turn would be enough, no? Why do you need 3-5?

I'd take that too! Congratulations, you have convinced me to want even less of the log.
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Voltaire

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2015, 03:01:54 am »
+2

And just as some people like to argue that manually counting points is part of the required skillset to play the game well, one could argue that paying attention and not tabbing away is part of this skillset too. The "partial log" argument feels weird and inconsistent to me.

Sometimes the delivery guy arrives. Sometimes the kids ask what's for dinner. Sometimes a million things will distract you for 10 seconds in a way that has nothing to do with your Dominion skillset.
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Donald X.

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2015, 03:40:53 am »
+15

I think it totally wants to be based on whether or not they are using the VP counter. With VP counter, show the whole log. Without it, show each player's most recent completed turn (edit: and the current turn-in-progress).

The VP counter is implicit in the log so there's no point to showing the whole log without the VP counter. And I bet there aren't many people who want the VP counter but don't like the log.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 03:43:00 am by Donald X. »
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2015, 05:13:05 am »
+1

I'm also for the full log. Nobody can stop me from documenting everything on paper anyway, so why waste anybodies time with hiding it? I already track my VP's that way in league games where my opponent turns off the counter. The only consequence is that the game takes longer.
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yed

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2015, 05:57:22 am »
+1

I'm also for the full log. Nobody can stop me from documenting everything on paper anyway, so why waste anybodies time with hiding it? I already track my VP's that way in league games where my opponent turns off the counter. The only consequence is that the game takes longer.
I thought default in league is #vpon. It was in rules when I played.
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SCSN

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2015, 07:16:14 am »
+1

But then just your opponent's previous turn would be enough, no? Why do you need 3-5?

I'd take that too! Congratulations, you have convinced me to want even less of the log.

I'm happy for you :) Contrary to what you might think I like to see an elegant solution where everyone gets what they want; the one outlined by Donald fits perfectly.
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AdamH

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2015, 09:29:33 am »
+4

My opinion:

I don't like the point counter. I would prefer to never play with it, but when I stream it's helpful for the viewers, so I play with it when I stream. It doesn't make any sense to have the viewers be able to see it and not me (would make the stream worse) so I've sucked it up and just started playing with vpon.

I really don't like it when people use the ctrl+F trick to see how a split went. I really wish that was considered taboo among the community no matter what, there are already ways within the game to calculate these things, just track your shuffle. I realize that I'm in the minority here so I haven't argued the point, but that just feels like cheating to me. If there was a way to deny that ability to people and still have point counter for the viewers, I'd feel much less dirty, but alas, I don't think that is to be.

I just said this, but I'll say it again, I know most people don't feel the same way. I'm aware of this, thank you. Simply asserting that one thinks their way is better than mine for reasons that are their own personal preference (however disguised they may be) has not changed my mind in the past and will continue to not change my mind. I've tried it all the ways and now I'm sharing my favorite with the class. I like my steaks cooked very well-done, too. I tried them all and that's my favorite and you won't change my mind without putting more steaks in front of me. If you would like to make me steak, please PM me and I'll send you my contact information.

You can have your rare steaks, as long as I can have my well-done steaks. Please, eat your rare steaks, it just means more of the good kind for me :P Then we can all hug and embrace our diversity, and go eat steak. Steak.

Another idea is to have the log go back to the last time all decks were shuffled (or 2 turns, whichever is more). Seems a little less arbitrary to me.
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theright555J

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2015, 09:35:34 am »
+1

I really don't like it when people use the ctrl+F trick to see how a split went.

Whoa whoa really? That can be done? Yet another way I underutilize my computer's functionality.
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jsh357

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2015, 09:38:08 am »
0

I prefer people using ctrl f to them reading the log forever.  Generally I agree with Donald on this, but I think 2 turns back with no counter is a happy medium.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2015, 09:39:07 am »
+3


I really don't like it when people use the ctrl+F trick to see how a split went. I really wish that was considered taboo among the community no matter what, there are already ways within the game to calculate these things, just track your shuffle. I realize that I'm in the minority here so I haven't argued the point, but that just feels like cheating to me. If there was a way to deny that ability to people and still have point counter for the viewers, I'd feel much less dirty, but alas, I don't think that is to be.


I hope you're not in the minority here. It seems pretty obviously like a form of cheating to me. The only reason I wouldn't call it flat-out cheating is that both opponents currently know that the other has the ability to do it due to the poor implementation of the game.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2015, 09:40:57 am »
+2

Is it cheating if I ctrl+F the log with my eyes?
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AdamH

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2015, 09:46:05 am »
+2

I can't tell how much of this is genuine misunderstanding and how much of it is playful trolling, so I'm going to clarify:

If the whole log is there, yeah sure I'd rather people ctrl+F if they're planning to look over the whole log and read it. Both of them would feel like cheating to me, so sure I guess I'd prefer the one that takes less time.

But I'd rather the whole log just not be there, which is what I thought this thread was about. That way you are at least operating within the game rules. See my previous disclaimers about steak for more details.

It's usually not difficult to get the information you want while doing this, you just start counting the Curses you see at the top of your shuffle on your non-mouse hand. If you run out of fingers, usually you have the information you wanted.
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Burning Skull

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2015, 09:53:54 am »
0

When salvager came out I never played #vpon for I was considering my ability to count points as an advantage. But some time passed and I understood that point counter just saves time and lets you concentrate more on what actually is happening in the game. It feels like it is the same story with log search.
It's all about strictly following the game rules versus some convenience and increased game speed.

Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2015, 10:01:48 am »
+6

I don't have strong feelings about any of the possible ways of playing. I get joy from the surprise of winning/losing a close game where I didn't know the score. And I get joy from being able to quickly/easily see that if I do X+Y+Z... I can win with a one point lead. I like them both a lot. I hope that the final solution lets everybody play the way they want (assuming they can find like-minded opponents).

What I don't like is the accusation that using a resource available to both players in the variant of Dominion that exists in Dominion Online currently is in any way cheating (assuming the players haven't come to some mutual agreement not to use that resource).
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SCSN

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2015, 10:05:55 am »
0

What I don't like is the accusation that using a resource available to both players in the variant of Dominion that exists in Dominion Online currently is in any way cheating (assuming the players haven't come to some mutual agreement not to use that resource).

This. I like to see everyone get what they want. Why begrudge people with a different preference that pleasure, let alone call them names?
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AdamH

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2015, 10:10:26 am »
+3

I never thought about using it as a competitive advantage, I just play a good amount of games IRL and I don't want to get used to the idea of having a point counter always there, then be totally lost when I don't have it IRL.

And yeah, when you play online it's a different experience, so sure people may prefer to have different things when they play online. And sure some people only play online so yeah they always want those things. If I never played IRL or if I could have these things IRL without any extra effort (and everybody else I played with was OK with it, which is 100% impossible-never-going-to-happen BTW. Casual gamers would hate that idea for-suresies) then it's possible that I'd be a lot more OK with point counter and this other stuff. I'm not sure, someone would have to go back into Age III and switch the timeline to a different Age IV card (see what I did there?) But that's not the case for me.

I also don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the ability to only play games that match IRL conditions out of the rulebook (which we have and is not going to be taken away). Maybe it's also not unreasonable to ask that you can play with point counter and without the entire log always visible. On the other hand, it seems like such an elegant solution to combine the two, so maybe I should just begin the process of getting over the fact that looking over the game log feels like cheating to me.

What I don't like is the accusation that using a resource available to both players in the variant of Dominion that exists in Dominion Online currently is in any way cheating (assuming the players haven't come to some mutual agreement not to use that resource).

I never said this, BTW. The closest I came was that it

just feels like cheating to me.

which is definitely not the same thing, especially since most of the rest of that post and my next one were disclaimers about how that's just my opinion and I know nobody else feels that way (plus a very apropos analogy to the doneness of steak). I never said it was cheating, I just said that it feels similar to that to me and I didn't like it. I want to be crystal clear here: I agree with your entire post.

Do we need to hug? Do you like steak?

let alone call them names

Can I call you bro?
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SCSN

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2015, 10:15:51 am »
+1

Can I call you bro?

Only if I just told you a cool story.
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AdamH

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2015, 10:17:38 am »
0

Can I call you bro?

Only if I just told you a cool story.

Story time with SCSN? Let's hear it! :P
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GendoIkari

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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2015, 10:17:45 am »
+2

What I don't like is the accusation that using a resource available to both players in the variant of Dominion that exists in Dominion Online currently is in any way cheating (assuming the players haven't come to some mutual agreement not to use that resource).

I should echo Adam's response to this as well. I don't mean to accuse anyone who does this of cheating. What I mean to say by agreeing with Adam is just what he said in response to this; that it feels like a form of cheating due to the fact that it's doing something that's not allowed within the rules of Dominion. But I get that because the log is there, Online Dominion is currently a Dominion variant.
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Re: Online game log display
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2015, 10:39:12 am »
+4

You can have your rare steaks, as long as I can have my well-done steaks. Please, eat your rare steaks, it just means more of the good kind for me :P Then we can all hug and embrace our diversity, and go eat steak. Steak.

As cooking time increases, the taste of a good steak converges to the taste of a bad steak. So you are more likely to get a bad one in a restaurant when you ask for it to be well-done.

You can now carry on with the low-stakes part of this conversation.
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