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[Voltaire]

So I put this in "Feedback/Suggestions" over at Making Fun and encountered some resistance, and I'm wondering, am I in the minority? Hence this poll, because I'm curious. This question is about in-game logs visible during a game of Dominion, not the same log when viewed after a game.

I'm thinking some of this split comes from streamers vs. non-streamers and casual vs. competitive, but I'm unsure.

EDIT: Didn't mean to make this a private poll. You can still see the results, just not who voted what. Sorry.

[Beyond Awesome]

I'm a fan of the full log. Playing the game on fast, it is easy to miss something the other player did a few turns or forget what happened.

[SCSN]

Full log for sure.

While I can see where people who want a "pure" experience of no point-counters and no logs are coming from, I can't possibly fathom why you would be okay with a log that displays 5 turns but object to one showing 10.

And to pre-empt the obligatory "but Iso did blablabla...": iso did actually display the full log whenever the point-counter was enabled, and hid things only when it wasn't because a full log effectively includes a point counter, albeit a very cumbersome one.

[Voltaire]

While I can see where people who want a "pure" experience of no point-counters and no logs are coming from, I can't possibly fathom why you would be okay with a log that displays 5 turns but object to one showing 10.

Because a shorter number (3 or so, which I think was iso) is enough for you to figure out what you missed if you got distracted, or went to another tab, or whatever. Which is the point of showing you any of the log in the first place in the middle of the game. 5+, 10+, etc is just reconstructing most of the game, and at that point it's essentially a full log.

tl;dr 5 is less than 10. Anything else is a disingenuous slippery-slope argument.

[SCSN]

But then just your opponent's previous turn would be enough, no? Why do you need 3-5?

And just as some people like to argue that manually counting points is part of the required skillset to play the game well, one could argue that paying attention and not tabbing away is part of this skillset too. The "partial log" argument feels weird and inconsistent to me.

[Voltaire]

But then just your opponent's previous turn would be enough, no? Why do you need 3-5?

I'd take that too! Congratulations, you have convinced me to want even less of the log.

[Voltaire]

And just as some people like to argue that manually counting points is part of the required skillset to play the game well, one could argue that paying attention and not tabbing away is part of this skillset too. The "partial log" argument feels weird and inconsistent to me.

Sometimes the delivery guy arrives. Sometimes the kids ask what's for dinner. Sometimes a million things will distract you for 10 seconds in a way that has nothing to do with your Dominion skillset.

[Donald X.]

I think it totally wants to be based on whether or not they are using the VP counter. With VP counter, show the whole log. Without it, show each player's most recent completed turn (edit: and the current turn-in-progress).

The VP counter is implicit in the log so there's no point to showing the whole log without the VP counter. And I bet there aren't many people who want the VP counter but don't like the log.

[drsteelhammer]

I'm also for the full log. Nobody can stop me from documenting everything on paper anyway, so why waste anybodies time with hiding it? I already track my VP's that way in league games where my opponent turns off the counter. The only consequence is that the game takes longer.

[yed]

I'm also for the full log. Nobody can stop me from documenting everything on paper anyway, so why waste anybodies time with hiding it? I already track my VP's that way in league games where my opponent turns off the counter. The only consequence is that the game takes longer.

I thought default in league is #vpon. It was in rules when I played.

[SCSN]

But then just your opponent's previous turn would be enough, no? Why do you need 3-5?

I'd take that too! Congratulations, you have convinced me to want even less of the log.

I'm happy for you Contrary to what you might think I like to see an elegant solution where everyone gets what they want; the one outlined by Donald fits perfectly.

[AdamH]

My opinion:

I don't like the point counter. I would prefer to never play with it, but when I stream it's helpful for the viewers, so I play with it when I stream. It doesn't make any sense to have the viewers be able to see it and not me (would make the stream worse) so I've sucked it up and just started playing with vpon.

I really don't like it when people use the ctrl+F trick to see how a split went. I really wish that was considered taboo among the community no matter what, there are already ways within the game to calculate these things, just track your shuffle. I realize that I'm in the minority here so I haven't argued the point, but that just feels like cheating to me. If there was a way to deny that ability to people and still have point counter for the viewers, I'd feel much less dirty, but alas, I don't think that is to be.

I just said this, but I'll say it again, I know most people don't feel the same way. I'm aware of this, thank you. Simply asserting that one thinks their way is better than mine for reasons that are their own personal preference (however disguised they may be) has not changed my mind in the past and will continue to not change my mind. I've tried it all the ways and now I'm sharing my favorite with the class. I like my steaks cooked very well-done, too. I tried them all and that's my favorite and you won't change my mind without putting more steaks in front of me. If you would like to make me steak, please PM me and I'll send you my contact information.

You can have your rare steaks, as long as I can have my well-done steaks. Please, eat your rare steaks, it just means more of the good kind for me Then we can all hug and embrace our diversity, and go eat steak. Steak.

Another idea is to have the log go back to the last time all decks were shuffled (or 2 turns, whichever is more). Seems a little less arbitrary to me.

[theright555J]

I really don't like it when people use the ctrl+F trick to see how a split went.

Whoa whoa really? That can be done? Yet another way I underutilize my computer's functionality.

[jsh357]

I prefer people using ctrl f to them reading the log forever.  Generally I agree with Donald on this, but I think 2 turns back with no counter is a happy medium.

[GendoIkari]

I really don't like it when people use the ctrl+F trick to see how a split went. I really wish that was considered taboo among the community no matter what, there are already ways within the game to calculate these things, just track your shuffle. I realize that I'm in the minority here so I haven't argued the point, but that just feels like cheating to me. If there was a way to deny that ability to people and still have point counter for the viewers, I'd feel much less dirty, but alas, I don't think that is to be.

I hope you're not in the minority here. It seems pretty obviously like a form of cheating to me. The only reason I wouldn't call it flat-out cheating is that both opponents currently know that the other has the ability to do it due to the poor implementation of the game.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Is it cheating if I ctrl+F the log with my eyes?

[AdamH]

I can't tell how much of this is genuine misunderstanding and how much of it is playful trolling, so I'm going to clarify:

If the whole log is there, yeah sure I'd rather people ctrl+F if they're planning to look over the whole log and read it. Both of them would feel like cheating to me, so sure I guess I'd prefer the one that takes less time.

But I'd rather the whole log just not be there, which is what I thought this thread was about. That way you are at least operating within the game rules. See my previous disclaimers about steak for more details.

It's usually not difficult to get the information you want while doing this, you just start counting the Curses you see at the top of your shuffle on your non-mouse hand. If you run out of fingers, usually you have the information you wanted.

[Burning Skull]

When salvager came out I never played #vpon for I was considering my ability to count points as an advantage. But some time passed and I understood that point counter just saves time and lets you concentrate more on what actually is happening in the game. It feels like it is the same story with log search.
It's all about strictly following the game rules versus some convenience and increased game speed.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I don't have strong feelings about any of the possible ways of playing. I get joy from the surprise of winning/losing a close game where I didn't know the score. And I get joy from being able to quickly/easily see that if I do X+Y+Z... I can win with a one point lead. I like them both a lot. I hope that the final solution lets everybody play the way they want (assuming they can find like-minded opponents).

What I don't like is the accusation that using a resource available to both players in the variant of Dominion that exists in Dominion Online currently is in any way cheating (assuming the players haven't come to some mutual agreement not to use that resource).

[SCSN]

What I don't like is the accusation that using a resource available to both players in the variant of Dominion that exists in Dominion Online currently is in any way cheating (assuming the players haven't come to some mutual agreement not to use that resource).

This. I like to see everyone get what they want. Why begrudge people with a different preference that pleasure, let alone call them names?

[AdamH]

I never thought about using it as a competitive advantage, I just play a good amount of games IRL and I don't want to get used to the idea of having a point counter always there, then be totally lost when I don't have it IRL.

And yeah, when you play online it's a different experience, so sure people may prefer to have different things when they play online. And sure some people only play online so yeah they always want those things. If I never played IRL or if I could have these things IRL without any extra effort (and everybody else I played with was OK with it, which is 100% impossible-never-going-to-happen BTW. Casual gamers would hate that idea for-suresies) then it's possible that I'd be a lot more OK with point counter and this other stuff. I'm not sure, someone would have to go back into Age III and switch the timeline to a different Age IV card (see what I did there?) But that's not the case for me.

I also don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the ability to only play games that match IRL conditions out of the rulebook (which we have and is not going to be taken away). Maybe it's also not unreasonable to ask that you can play with point counter and without the entire log always visible. On the other hand, it seems like such an elegant solution to combine the two, so maybe I should just begin the process of getting over the fact that looking over the game log feels like cheating to me.

What I don't like is the accusation that using a resource available to both players in the variant of Dominion that exists in Dominion Online currently is in any way cheating (assuming the players haven't come to some mutual agreement not to use that resource).

I never said this, BTW. The closest I came was that it

just feels like cheating to me.

which is definitely not the same thing, especially since most of the rest of that post and my next one were disclaimers about how that's just my opinion and I know nobody else feels that way (plus a very apropos analogy to the doneness of steak). I never said it was cheating, I just said that it feels similar to that to me and I didn't like it. I want to be crystal clear here: I agree with your entire post.

Do we need to hug? Do you like steak?

let alone call them names

Can I call you bro?

[SCSN]

Can I call you bro?

Only if I just told you a cool story.

[AdamH]

Can I call you bro?

Only if I just told you a cool story.

Story time with SCSN? Let's hear it!

[GendoIkari]

What I don't like is the accusation that using a resource available to both players in the variant of Dominion that exists in Dominion Online currently is in any way cheating (assuming the players haven't come to some mutual agreement not to use that resource).

I should echo Adam's response to this as well. I don't mean to accuse anyone who does this of cheating. What I mean to say by agreeing with Adam is just what he said in response to this; that it feels like a form of cheating due to the fact that it's doing something that's not allowed within the rules of Dominion. But I get that because the log is there, Online Dominion is currently a Dominion variant.

[pacovf]

You can have your rare steaks, as long as I can have my well-done steaks. Please, eat your rare steaks, it just means more of the good kind for me Then we can all hug and embrace our diversity, and go eat steak. Steak.

As cooking time increases, the taste of a good steak converges to the taste of a bad steak. So you are more likely to get a bad one in a restaurant when you ask for it to be well-done.

You can now carry on with the low-stakes part of this conversation.

[2.71828.....]

I really like what Donald said about the log

I think it totally wants to be based on whether or not they are using the VP counter. With VP counter, show the whole log. Without it, show each player's most recent completed turn (edit: and the current turn-in-progress).

The VP counter is implicit in the log so there's no point to showing the whole log without the VP counter. And I bet there aren't many people who want the VP counter but don't like the log.

Basically, if you like the VP counter, you are going to like the log.

If you don't like VP counter, you won't like the log.

Just two different personalities and opinions.  Neither is wrong.  In my opinion, the only real issue appears when trying to standardize Dominion games for a tournament or something.  Do we play a more "pure" version of Dominion that doesn't include a log or VP counter?  Do we acknowledge that we are indeed playing online and have these other resources available to use and it makes gameplay easier and more enjoyable for {subset of people}?  That is really the only issue that I see.  In my opinion, when running a tournament online, that should be one of the issues that is always discussed in the rules.  For example, the Dominion League states "By default, we play with #vpon and with random kingdoms. You can change these settings on mutual consent."  If you play in the league, you abide by the rules.  Could a tournament be created that explicitly states you cannot use VP counter?  Sure.  It wouldn't be any worse or better than another tournament with VP counter, it would just be different.

[2.71828.....]

And to make the discussion relevant to logs, just replace "VP counter" with "game log" and I think everything still holds true

[SCSN]

And to make the discussion relevant to logs, just replace "VP counter" with "game log" and I think everything still holds true

Let's call this the VP/log duality.

[AdamH]

Uhh, my first post in this thread was to state a reason why someone (myself) would prefer point counter but not the whole game log. I do it for the viewers of my stream, and the whole game log doesn't help them since it's not on the screen most of the time.

I also said it's probably not a good enough reason to separate them, but I just don't think you should say there are no reasons. If it's really as simple as having another box right beside the VP counter box to check, then it would make me happier.

low-stakes

I disagree with the entire content of the rest of this post, but I'll give you a +1 for your pun here

[Voltaire]

I'm also for the full log. Nobody can stop me from documenting everything on paper anyway, so why waste anybodies time with hiding it? I already track my VP's that way in league games where my opponent turns off the counter. The only consequence is that the game takes longer.

Here's why I don't like this argument for a full log - it implicitly says "Nobody can stop me from cheating, so why not help me cheat?" Now, this is only if the players are playing with the understanding that they are playing Dominion as close to the original rules as possible online. If they're not, that's a-ok. But tracking VP in a game where players have agreed to turn the VP counter off feels a little dirty to me, personally. Now that said, I get that lots of people want to play with the point counter Dominion variant and if they want a full log too then a-ok.

I see the point here that tying the full log to the VP counter could satisfy almost everyone, and I'd support that.

[pubby]

It's probably worth mentioning that the new version doesn't support control-f.

[Awaclus]

It's probably worth mentioning that the new version doesn't support control-f.

#gokowasbetter

[Kirian]

Well-done steak, also known as "meat the restaurant can't legally serve any other way."

[pacovf]

Well-done steak, also known as "meat the restaurant can't legally serve any other way."

I would stop there if you don't want Adam to have a beef with you.

[AdamH]

Well-done steak, also known as "meat the restaurant can't legally serve any other way."

I would stop there if you don't want Adam to have a beef with you.

You know, it's pretty rare to find someone who can make all of these great puns.

[pacovf]

Well-done steak, also known as "meat the restaurant can't legally serve any other way."

I would stop there if you don't want Adam to have a beef with you.

You know, it's pretty rare to find someone who can make all of these great puns.

Your respect patronage is met with nothing but raw gratitude.

[Seprix]

Well-done steak, also known as "meat the restaurant can't legally serve any other way."

I would stop there if you don't want Adam to have a beef with you.

You know, it's pretty rare to find someone who can make all of these great puns.

You are all making a misteak here by steering towards puns.

[tailred]

Steak puns; a rare medium done well.

[sudgy]

At a restaurant I asked for my burger to be well done, they said it goes all the way up to "burnt to a cinder".  I got that, and it was not burnt at all, and just about how I like it.

[Witherweaver]

[Chris is me]

Here's why I don't like this argument for a full log - it implicitly says "Nobody can stop me from cheating, so why not help me cheat?"

It's not cheating, though. It's certainly not a rule in the physical copy of Dominion, and it's obviously not a rule online either. Just because it's not something you are (or I am) willing to do / feel like doing, doesn't mean it's cheating to do it. What's the fundamental difference between trying to remember something in your head and writing it down?

[Kirian]

Here's why I don't like this argument for a full log - it implicitly says "Nobody can stop me from cheating, so why not help me cheat?"

It's not cheating, though. It's certainly not a rule in the physical copy of Dominion, and it's obviously not a rule online either. Just because it's not something you are (or I am) willing to do / feel like doing, doesn't mean it's cheating to do it. What's the fundamental difference between trying to remember something in your head and writing it down?

Someone find the quote from Donald X about writing scores in blood on your stomach.

[Deadlock39]

Here's why I don't like this argument for a full log - it implicitly says "Nobody can stop me from cheating, so why not help me cheat?"

It's not cheating, though. It's certainly not a rule in the physical copy of Dominion, and it's obviously not a rule online either. Just because it's not something you are (or I am) willing to do / feel like doing, doesn't mean it's cheating to do it. What's the fundamental difference between trying to remember something in your head and writing it down?

I like VP tracking, I like the log, I don't mind using a computer to search it...  but it is because it is the version of Dominion I like to play online.

That said, (and I think this is basically the stance Donald took in the quote Kirian is referencing), anything game related that is not explicitly allowed by the rules, is implicitly not allowed.  Anything else is madness.  The rule book doesn't say I can't just gain the stack of Provinces because I want to.  I simply explains the (only!) ways that I am allowed to gain Provinces.

Some people like the state tracking aspects of the game more than others.  Some people don't even consider it part of the game. Unfortunately, in online play, it is literally impossible to prevent someone from tracking the game state, so the best that can be done for players who want to play that way is to make it harder, and well, if there is an alternate mode that makes it super easy, people who want all the information accessible will probably just play that one.

[Donald X.]

Someone find the quote from Donald X about writing scores in blood on your stomach.

I convinced that guy too. A rare day on the internet.

[Seprix]

Here's why I don't like this argument for a full log - it implicitly says "Nobody can stop me from cheating, so why not help me cheat?"

It's not cheating, though. It's certainly not a rule in the physical copy of Dominion, and it's obviously not a rule online either. Just because it's not something you are (or I am) willing to do / feel like doing, doesn't mean it's cheating to do it. What's the fundamental difference between trying to remember something in your head and writing it down?

Someone find the quote from Donald X about writing scores in blood on your stomach.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=876.msg13546#msg13546

Thank you, based google!

[Haddock]

Here's why I don't like this argument for a full log - it implicitly says "Nobody can stop me from cheating, so why not help me cheat?"

It's not cheating, though. It's certainly not a rule in the physical copy of Dominion, and it's obviously not a rule online either. Just because it's not something you are (or I am) willing to do / feel like doing, doesn't mean it's cheating to do it. What's the fundamental difference between trying to remember something in your head and writing it down?

Someone find the quote from Donald X about writing scores in blood on your stomach.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=876.msg13546#msg13546

Thank you, based google!

I think I must be punishing myself for something.  I read that entire thread, all however-many-pages of trolling.  Painful reading, seriously.

Not that I intend to play online at all (Hearthstone is already too much of an addiction), but for what it's worth I think Donald's suggestion is the clear winner.

[drsteelhammer]

If you want no log at all and no point counter, we can remove the numbers indicating how low a pile is removed aswell. Not sure about tracking you draw pile in the rule, but that could go away aswell then I guess.

That would make it obviously more random, but if that's what the majority wants...

[AdamH]

If you want no log at all and no point counter, we can remove the numbers indicating how low a pile is removed aswell. Not sure about tracking you draw pile in the rule, but that could go away aswell then I guess.

That would make it obviously more random, but if that's what the majority wants...

The game rules allow you to count your draw pile, opponents' draw piles, and supply piles (but you can't look at each of the cards in the Knights or Ruins piles). You can't count your discard or look through it unless a card tells you to do so (Phil Stone, Scavenger, Hermit)

EDIT: turns out you can't count your opponents' draw piles. Imagine that

[drsteelhammer]

If you want no log at all and no point counter, we can remove the numbers indicating how low a pile is removed aswell. Not sure about tracking you draw pile in the rule, but that could go away aswell then I guess.

That would make it obviously more random, but if that's what the majority wants...

The game rules allow you to count your draw pile, opponents' draw piles, and supply piles (but you can't look at each of the cards in the Knights or Ruins piles). You can't count your discard or look through it unless a card tells you to do so (Phil Stone, Scavenger, Hermit)

Yes- and Goko+MF do it for you. You are allowed to count the Provinces you bought- but they could do it for you too!

[markusin]

If you want no log at all and no point counter, we can remove the numbers indicating how low a pile is removed aswell. Not sure about tracking you draw pile in the rule, but that could go away aswell then I guess.

That would make it obviously more random, but if that's what the majority wants...

The game rules allow you to count your draw pile, opponents' draw piles, and supply piles (but you can't look at each of the cards in the Knights or Ruins piles). You can't count your discard or look through it unless a card tells you to do so (Phil Stone, Scavenger, Hermit)

Yes- and Goko+MF do it for you. You are allowed to count the Provinces you bought- but they could do it for you too!

But the physical components of the game do not have the obligation to aid you in counting what you've bought since the rules don't specify that obligation as part of the "contract". If the game game you pencil and paper for stuff like that or a slider or simply stated that you can use such tools acquired elsewhere, then Goko-MF would be obliged to give you a deck tracker as well.

Counting supply piles and draw decks with the aid of the physical stuff to count is in the rules, but picking up the discard pile to look through it is not. Neither is being allowed to keep track of deck contents with anything besides your mental capabilities.

Having a deck tracker is therefore a variant, though one that comes close to the variant we already have online. Having a full log available but not a deck tracker seems like an arbitrary  design choice to make it more difficult for one track their deck, though less difficult then it would be IRL because of the full log. What keeps people from tracking decks online with pencil and paper is their limited patience, really.

[KingZog3]

I haven't played dominion in a while, but my opinion was that the counter was handy in games with no alt vp, because it just facilitated an already easy job. But it shouldn't be shown with alt vp cards since they are hard to count, making it a valuable skill. Same goes with masquerade games.

[LastFootnote]

If you want no log at all and no point counter, we can remove the numbers indicating how low a pile is removed aswell. Not sure about tracking you draw pile in the rule, but that could go away aswell then I guess.

That would make it obviously more random, but if that's what the majority wants...

The game rules allow you to count your draw pile, opponents' draw piles, and supply piles (but you can't look at each of the cards in the Knights or Ruins piles). You can't count your discard or look through it unless a card tells you to do so (Phil Stone, Scavenger, Hermit)

The bolded part is incorrect. You are not allowed to count other players' draw piles.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Do the purists feel the crushing guilt from all those times they looked at their opponent's deck count on Dominion Online? Think about how naughty you've all been.

[LastFootnote]

Do the purists feel the crushing guilt from all those times they looked at their opponent's deck count on Dominion Online? Think about how naughty you've all been.

I enjoy being able to see my opponents' deck counts, but I wouldn't say it's crucial to my enjoyment of the game.

I have to assume that the point of the rule is so that you don't bog IRL games down by making other players count their decks. Online that's not an issue.

[AdamH]

If you want no log at all and no point counter, we can remove the numbers indicating how low a pile is removed aswell. Not sure about tracking you draw pile in the rule, but that could go away aswell then I guess.

That would make it obviously more random, but if that's what the majority wants...

The game rules allow you to count your draw pile, opponents' draw piles, and supply piles (but you can't look at each of the cards in the Knights or Ruins piles). You can't count your discard or look through it unless a card tells you to do so (Phil Stone, Scavenger, Hermit)

The bolded part is incorrect. You are not allowed to count other players' draw piles.

Aroo?

So I'll attach an image of the relevant part of the base set rulebook, and quote it here. The main section says

A player is allowed to count how many cards are left in his Deck, but not in his Discard pile. A player may not look through his Deck or his Discard pile. A player may look through the Trash pile, and players may count the number of cards left in any pile in the Supply.

Then the sidebar says

Players may count cards in Decks and Supply piles and may look at cards in Trash.

Seems relatively clear to me that this last part gives permission to count the cards in all decks, including opponents' decks. I don't remember any other ruling on this, but maybe I'm wrong.

[pacovf]

Pretty sure text in the main section takes precedence over text in the sidebar, and the main section clearly only allows to count your own deck.

[AdamH]

Pretty sure text in the main section takes precedence over text in the sidebar, and the main section clearly only allows to count your own deck.

The whole thing from that other thread is that if the rules allow you to do it, you can, otherwise you can't. The main part doesn't say you can't count other peoples' decks, and then the sidebar says you can. So you can. The main part and sidebar don't seem to contradict each other at all.

[Seprix]

Nah, Adam. It sounds like each player is allowed to count his own deck. I see no express permission to count other decks. Why does everyone have to be a lawyer and get the rules their way?:p

[Mic Qsenoch]

when playing with real cards do you HAVE to keep your discard pile face up and show the top card?

Yes.

Computer implementations are obv. necessarily going to be variants. You don't want to have to choose the order that you discard everything in clean-up for example, it would suck. Showing the deck sizes in a computer version seems fine. IRL I have a general idea, and the reason not to let you count is just to not waste time.

Here's some relevant quote from Donald in a thread which asks about counting the opponent's deck. The answers in that thread are "you can't count opponent's deck".

[AdamH]

All righty then, the word of DXV is binding. Though I went through this whole schtick once before IRL and we all agreed that the rulebook said you could count the cards in your opponent's deck. I mean, I'd argue that the letter of the rulebook allows it but that doesn't matter, you can't do that.

Usually the only thing I care about is a rough percentage of how far they are through their shuffle. I've never asked for a count of my opponent's cards in an IRL game before.

[Haddock]

All righty then, the word of DXV is binding. Though I went through this whole schtick once before IRL and we all agreed that the rulebook said you could count the cards in your opponent's deck. I mean, I'd argue that the letter of the rulebook allows it but that doesn't matter, you can't do that.

Usually the only thing I care about is a rough percentage of how far they are through their shuffle. I've never asked for a count of my opponent's cards in an IRL game before.

You'll get a rough percentage anyway, just at a glance.  I doubt Donald X would suggest that you're not allowed to look at your opponent's deck from across the table; you'd get such information accidentally even if you were trying not to look.

[jsh357]

I usually bribe people in to counting their decks for me

[Witherweaver]

All righty then, the word of DXV is binding. Though I went through this whole schtick once before IRL and we all agreed that the rulebook said you could count the cards in your opponent's deck. I mean, I'd argue that the letter of the rulebook allows it but that doesn't matter, you can't do that.

Usually the only thing I care about is a rough percentage of how far they are through their shuffle. I've never asked for a count of my opponent's cards in an IRL game before.

You could argue that "You can count cards in decks." is a true statement when you are allowed to count Deck1 but not Deck2 through DeckN. 

[Seprix]

I usually bribe people in to counting their decks for me

Offering someone a card costing up to $ isn't a 'bribe', Jsh.

[drsteelhammer]

If you want no log at all and no point counter, we can remove the numbers indicating how low a pile is removed aswell. Not sure about tracking you draw pile in the rule, but that could go away aswell then I guess.

That would make it obviously more random, but if that's what the majority wants...

The game rules allow you to count your draw pile, opponents' draw piles, and supply piles (but you can't look at each of the cards in the Knights or Ruins piles). You can't count your discard or look through it unless a card tells you to do so (Phil Stone, Scavenger, Hermit)

Yes- and Goko+MF do it for you. You are allowed to count the Provinces you bought- but they could do it for you too!

But the physical components of the game do not have the obligation to aid you in counting what you've bought since the rules don't specify that obligation as part of the "contract". If the game game you pencil and paper for stuff like that or a slider or simply stated that you can use such tools acquired elsewhere, then Goko-MF would be obliged to give you a deck tracker as well.

Counting supply piles and draw decks with the aid of the physical stuff to count is in the rules, but picking up the discard pile to look through it is not. Neither is being allowed to keep track of deck contents with anything besides your mental capabilities.

Having a deck tracker is therefore a variant, though one that comes close to the variant we already have online. Having a full log available but not a deck tracker seems like an arbitrary  design choice to make it more difficult for one track their deck, though less difficult then it would be IRL because of the full log. What keeps people from tracking decks online with pencil and paper is their limited patience, really.

My comment was a bit misleading because I didn't mean to say they are the same, I just wanted to compare them because I feel like they are similar.

Yes, you are allowed in IRL games to count the supply piles and possibly not write down how many VP everybody has, I agree. But if someone I play with counts all the supply piles every three turns, chances are I'm not going to play with them very often because I don't want a game of Dominion which is two hours long and I don't even do anything most of the time. Of course it is no problem for me if somebody counts some piles when it gets closer to the ending, but you get my point.

Now in the Online Version they always count for you. They don't have to do that but I admit an interface where you could count yourself would just be obnoxious. I think the VP counter does something similar. IRL, you can only "remember" how many cards are bought by the different people, but in my experience the only consequence is that I play more slowly. From my point of view, it is not really a skill to track how many provinces or alt-VP cards each player has. If there is an essential card in the supply, I will know the split aswell since its important. If a supply pile is at 8 cards, I can remember whether I have 0, 1 or 2. I have no problem with that. But when I have a log, I can play faster and be a bit more "reckless" since I have the information backed up.

So to me this is what I mean with that it is a similar issue: Goko counts the card, so you don't have to do that. It's not really a skill, so it would just take time. And I think almost exactly the same about tracking the cards.

[markusin]

^ You're not wrong. The question is where to draw the line with what information the interface provides. I honestly don't have an answer to that, and so I am ambivalent to the whole point/deck tracker debate in terms of what should in principle be allowed. It seems natural to me to just have a static rulebook deem what is and isn't allowed. Dominion Online has shown that it isn't bound by what is allowed and not allowed in the rules. Apparently you can't count your opponent's deck. Gosh, I've been using Goko's interface to do that.

We don't have a rulebook specific to Dominion Online, so now we have room to argue what should and shouldn't be allowed. It's an argument worth having I suppose. Personally, I'd be satisfied with any ruling on the contested issues of deck tracking.

[Stefan_k]

I miss the time on ISO when you could see which cards you had in your deck. I would like to add to that to also see what cards are still in my draw pile.

[Witherweaver]

I miss the time on ISO when you could see which cards you had in your deck. I would like to add to that to also see what cards are still in my draw pile.

And my opponent's hand.

[markusin]

I miss the time on ISO when you could see which cards you had in your deck. I would like to add to that to also see what cards are still in my draw pile.

Wasn't that an extension?

[blueblimp]

I miss the time on ISO when you could see which cards you had in your deck. I would like to add to that to also see what cards are still in my draw pile.

Wasn't that an extension?

Yep. On Goko, it would actually have been easier (arguably) to do draw pile tracking than on isotropic. I did some testing around the launch and found that you could hook into when cards are transferred between different locations in the interface, eliminating the need for log parsing entirely, which is nice. On isotropic, I think that to do draw pile tracking, the log alone would not be enough (unlike for deck tracking), and you'd need to look at current hand contents also and combine the information.

I miss the time on ISO when you could see which cards you had in your deck. I would like to add to that to also see what cards are still in my draw pile.

And my opponent's hand.

I assume you're joking here, but an interesting thing about draw pile tracking is that it's not symmetric, in the sense that there's enough information available to know your own draw pile contents exactly, but it's not even possible to know the exact combined contents of your opponent's draw pile and hand. The reason is that not all cards are revealed when discarding.

This has a practical consequence that makes draw pile tracking problematic. The isotropic deck tracker extension and Salvager's point counter both provide the same information to you and your opponent, so that it's fair even if your opponent can't run the extension for some reason (like if they don't use a compatible browser). Since draw pile tracking is asymmetric, you simply have no way to tell your opponent what's in their draw pile, because you don't know. This means that if your opponent weren't running a draw pile tracker extension, there'd be no way to provide both players the same amount of tracking.

That's one reason that I didn't pursue trying to write a draw pile tracker extension for Goko. (The other is that it's a decent amount of work, and not very fun work, apart from the initial reverse engineering.)