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[pacovf]

I guess I can do a mail-mi lynch, though I'm not sure how much I'm being influenced by everyone else, or how bad it is if that's what's happening.

I really don't like this.  Mail-mi has 3 votes, we have a week left, the case on Mail-mi is pretty thin.

Previously Skip said,

And I didn't read mail-mi's post as a defense, more of a question posed to adk to see what explanation would be given.

And he was explicitly not finding Mail-mi scummy over his RVS voting and unvoting at the time.

So being okay with the Mail-mi lynch is because of Mail-mi voting teproc (who Skip has a couple of times found scummy) based on Chair's trap, which Chairs isn't so behind anymore.  And because 3 other people are voting Mail-mi.

So maybe it's newbtown sheeping, but when it comes to questioning me or not getting on the WW wagon Skip has shown an admirable lack of sheeping.  And in his post where he lends support to the Mail-mi wagon (without voting) he lays the groundwork for the "maybe I'm just newbtown being influenced" defense.  But he doesn't question it, and he was absolutely questioning the rest of us back with

Meh im not feeling the ww wagon, though I should probably cast a real vote sooner rather than later. I'll decide today sometime.

So yeah, Vote: Skip

The whole case hinges on skip apparently changing his opinion for no reason. But between the post you quote and his latest post, the whole "I think WW and Teproc are on the same team" discussion happened, that could definitely make him ok with a Mail-mi lynch.

So yeah, I don't see it.

[Witherweaver]

What's scummy about changing opinion?

I have no problems with lynching Mail-Mi.  He's one of those coin-flip players, though.. as Teproc said, he's equally scummy as town and scum.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

@Skip: if WW and Teproc are both town, do you think that makes Mail-mi more likely or less likely to be scum?  (Pretend we have flips on both WW and Teproc and know 100% that they are town.)

[Teproc]

I don't think UoS's case is "changing opinions is scummy". At least I didn't read that way, and I agree that changing your opinion is generally townie.

@pacovf re: Awaclus being a similar case to mail-mi. That's a good point, though I think Awaclus is much more likely to flip scum. But yeah, he's a meh day 1 lynch for the same reasons as mail-mi... and you'll notice he's not my preferred one.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

It's not about changing his opinion (that's fine), it's about being all independent-minded one day and going with the flow into lackadaisically supporting a lynch he has no strong opinion on the next.

If he had an opinion of his own that Mail-mi was scummy, I'd have expected him to say something.

[Teproc]

UoS just legitimately used "lackadaisically" in a sentence. Keep this in mind when deciding the MVP for this game silver.

[Witherweaver]

Okay then let's see.

Vote: Awaclus

[skip wooznum]

I guess I can do a mail-mi lynch, though I'm not sure how much I'm being influenced by everyone else, or how bad it is if that's what's happening.

I really don't like this.  Mail-mi has 3 votes, we have a week left, the case on Mail-mi is pretty thin.

I wasn't saying we should lynch him now, I was expressing my opinion on lynching him, due to the fact that he was the leading wagon at the time. And the case isn't super thick, I think my post conveys that. Responses to the rest will follow

[skip wooznum]

Previously Skip said,

And I didn't read mail-mi's post as a defense, more of a question posed to adk to see what explanation would be given.

And he was explicitly not finding Mail-mi scummy over his RVS voting and unvoting at the time.

So being okay with the Mail-mi lynch is because of Mail-mi voting teproc (who Skip has a couple of times found scummy) based on Chair's trap, which Chairs isn't so behind anymore.  And because 3 other people are voting Mail-mi.

So maybe it's newbtown sheeping, but when it comes to questioning me or not getting on the WW wagon Skip has shown an admirable lack of sheeping.  And in his post where he lends support to the Mail-mi wagon (without voting) he lays the groundwork for the "maybe I'm just newbtown being influenced" defense.  But he doesn't question it, and he was absolutely questioning the rest of us back with

Meh im not feeling the ww wagon, though I should probably cast a real vote sooner rather than later. I'll decide today sometime.

So yeah, Vote: Skip

I've become less sure of how to evaluate mail-mi's alleged defense of me since I made that comment; his comments on the ww/teproc fight struck me as slightly strange after re-read (I only said teproc was scummy a long while ago before that fight of his, btw. It was because I expected him to be posting more, which he started doing.). And yes, I would definitely call this at least partial sheeping. I really didn't like the ww wagon so I didn't get on board. I was nervous about you and I wanted to see you under pressure but it doesn't seem like people are interested. I did those things on my own, but that doesn't mean I can't go with the flow if it's about something I'm not opposed to. I don't see any inconsistency here.

[skip wooznum]

@Skip: if WW and Teproc are both town, do you think that makes Mail-mi more likely or less likely to be scum?  (Pretend we have flips on both WW and Teproc and know 100% that they are town.)

more or less likely than what? There's more than one other scenario.

[pacovf]

It's not about changing his opinion (that's fine), it's about being all independent-minded one day and going with the flow into lackadaisically supporting a lynch he has no strong opinion on the next.

If he had an opinion of his own that Mail-mi was scummy, I'd have expected him to say something.

Oh *rereads the case* hm, I see what you mean now. I still don't agree with it, I think you can read townie behaviour in it just as easily, but it's an ok case, I guess.

@pacovf re: Awaclus being a similar case to mail-mi. That's a good point, though I think Awaclus is much more likely to flip scum. But yeah, he's a meh day 1 lynch for the same reasons as mail-mi... and you'll notice he's not my preferred one.

There's a fundamental difference between the two: Awaclus would strictly be a lurker lynch. That means no accountability whatsoever if we lynch him. Nobody voting for mail-mi is doing so because of his lack of content, it's because what little there is, is scummy, so they won't be able to deflect responsibility tomorrow (should he happen to flip town).

That being said, I don't like the way Awaclus has been lurking. Most lurkers are just passive, not checking the game all that often, then posting a quick thought or two when they log in. Awaclus has been following the game closely, and just choosing not to post anything. Normally I would argue very strongly against a D1 lurker lynch, but I wouldn't feel so strongly about it in this specific case. Still, I would prefer a lynch elsewhere.

The problem is that you offer three lynches. WW and skip are town, IMHO, and Awaclus is a lurker lynch. So there's no common ground between our positions.

UoS just legitimately used "lackadaisically" in a sentence. Keep this in mind when deciding the MVP for this game silver.

Hear, hear.

[Seprix]

Here. I can answer any questions you have. I will be reading.

[pacovf]

Eh? What should we be asking?

[Seprix]

Some people asked me about my thoughts on arguments, I dunno. I guess there's nothing pressing. I'll begin reading now.

[mail-mi]

As for right now, I like chairs' argument for teproc. vote: teproc

also, chairs doesn't even like chairs' argument for teproc.

Doesn't mean I don't.

Sorry I've been gone, I just got an internship where I get to dress up as an alien and shoot little children with fake guns, so that's taken up a lot of my time. I'll be here later today, so ask questions and I'll get to answering them.

And turns out I didn't actually have any time today 

[pacovf]

Some people asked me about my thoughts on arguments, I dunno. I guess there's nothing pressing. I'll begin reading now.

Did you reach any conclusion after your reread?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

@Skip: if WW and Teproc are both town, do you think that makes Mail-mi more likely or less likely to be scum?  (Pretend we have flips on both WW and Teproc and know 100% that they are town.)

more or less likely than what? There's more than one other scenario.

Um, I'm not sure how that's a confusing question.  But rather than go around in circles on it, let's try it this way instead:

Have you given much thought to Mail-mi's comment that WW and Teproc are the same alignment, and how does it influence your opinion on Mail-mi, in your own words.  Just talk out all your thoughts here.  If you haven't thought about it, just say that and we'll move on, no need to decide on opinions where you have none about this.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Hey WW, why Awaclus over Mail-mi?

[Witherweaver]

Hey WW, why Awaclus over Mail-mi?

Why Mail-Mi over Awaclus?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Hey WW, why Awaclus over Mail-mi?

Why Mail-Mi over Awaclus?

I'm opposed to lynching Mail-mi. But you voted Awaclus and haven't said much about him that I remember.  Certainly both are lurking.  I wanted to know what your thoughts were.

[Witherweaver]

Hey WW, why Awaclus over Mail-mi?

Why Mail-Mi over Awaclus?

I'm opposed to lynching Mail-mi. But you voted Awaclus and haven't said much about him that I remember.  Certainly both are lurking.  I wanted to know what your thoughts were.

So then it's not Mail-Mi over Awaclus.  Come vote Awaclus, because wagons are cool!

[skip wooznum]

@Skip: if WW and Teproc are both town, do you think that makes Mail-mi more likely or less likely to be scum?  (Pretend we have flips on both WW and Teproc and know 100% that they are town.)

more or less likely than what? There's more than one other scenario.

Um, I'm not sure how that's a confusing question.  But rather than go around in circles on it, let's try it this way instead:

Have you given much thought to Mail-mi's comment that WW and Teproc are the same alignment, and how does it influence your opinion on Mail-mi, in your own words.  Just talk out all your thoughts here.  If you haven't thought about it, just say that and we'll move on, no need to decide on opinions where you have none about this.

when he said it I didn't think much of it, bit it's been pointed out that it's a thing scum will often do if they're partner is in fight and I think I understand why that is. If they're both town on the other hand, im not sure. Maybe it would help if mail-mi explained why his opinion is that it's definitely not town vs scum

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Hey WW, why Awaclus over Mail-mi?

Why Mail-Mi over Awaclus?

I'm opposed to lynching Mail-mi. But you voted Awaclus and haven't said much about him that I remember.  Certainly both are lurking.  I wanted to know what your thoughts were.

So then it's not Mail-Mi over Awaclus.  Come vote Awaclus, because wagons are cool!

Well Mail-mi had a wagon of 3 on him while Awaclus just had Hydrad.  I was surprised you weren't getting on the preexisting wagon.

[pacovf]

Frankly, the people on WW should reevaluate their position. Have you noticed how hard it is to get any other wagon going? If WW was scum, mafia players would be trying to get an alternative wagon going. So, unless you believe I am scum and doing exactly that, you should be convinced that WW is town.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Frankly, the people on WW should reevaluate their position. Have you noticed how hard it is to get any other wagon going? If WW was scum, mafia players would be trying to get an alternative wagon going. So, unless you believe I am scum and doing exactly that, you should be convinced that WW is town.

I have been trying to reevaluate my position, but I still find WW scummy.  If WW were town I think his wagon wouldn't have fallen apart so easily, I actually think Mail-mi is town largely because of how much half-assed support his wagon seems to have.

I think you are town, and I think WW is scum.  I don't find that position contradictory.

I think the drop in content of everyone but you, me, Skip, and Teproc (or maintenance of 0 content in the case of Awaclus, Hydrad, and Mail-mi) has more to do with the stalling feeling we have.