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Hibernator

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rules for Shanty town
« on: January 03, 2012, 08:39:30 pm »
0

Hello, I'm very confused about how Shanty town works.

Let's say I have four Coppers and a Shanty town. I play Shanty town and, as I have no action cards, I draw two cards. 1) Can I play them if they are action cards?

Let's say I have two Coppers, a Shanty town and two action cards. I play Shanty town and it allows me to play the other two action cards and I play them. 2) Do I draw two cards afterwards?

Let's say I have three Coppers, a Shanty town and an action card. I play Shanty town and it allows me to play the other action card. I play it. 3) Do I draw two cards afterwards? 4) Can I play another action card if the cards I draw are action cards?

Thank you very much

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Elyv

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2012, 08:51:29 pm »
0

Hello, I'm very confused about how Shanty town works.

Let's say I have four Coppers and a Shanty town. I play Shanty town and, as I have no action cards, I draw two cards. 1) Can I play them if they are action cards?
Yes, Shanty Town always gives +2 actions.

Quote
Let's say I have two Coppers, a Shanty town and two action cards. I play Shanty town and it allows me to play the other two action cards and I play them. 2) Do I draw two cards afterwards?
No, since Shanty Town only draws you cards if you have no actions when you play it. Having none later in the turn is irrelevant.

Quote
Let's say I have three Coppers, a Shanty town and an action card. I play Shanty town and it allows me to play the other action card. I play it. 3) Do I draw two cards afterwards? 4) Can I play another action card if the cards I draw are action cards?
No and Yes, for the reasons stated above.
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ftl

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2012, 09:17:07 pm »
+2

Hello, I'm very confused about how Shanty town works.

Let's say I have four Coppers and a Shanty town. I play Shanty town and, as I have no action cards, I draw two cards. 1) Can I play them if they are action cards?

Let's say I have two Coppers, a Shanty town and two action cards. I play Shanty town and it allows me to play the other two action cards and I play them. 2) Do I draw two cards afterwards?

Let's say I have three Coppers, a Shanty town and an action card. I play Shanty town and it allows me to play the other action card. I play it. 3) Do I draw two cards afterwards? 4) Can I play another action card if the cards I draw are action cards?

Thank you very much

Hibernator

In general, you can figure out exactly what each card does by following what it says. Shanty town says

"+2 Actions
Reveal your hand.  If you have no Action cards in hand, +2 Cards."

So, do things in order.

First, you play the Shanty Town, you put it face up in front of you, so it's not in your hand, it's in play now.
You get +2 actions - great, you can play more actions later in the turn.
Then you reveal your hand. If you have no action cards in your hand now (say, you have just four coppers), then you draw two cards at once; if you have an action card still in your hand, then you don't draw two cards.

And now you're done playing Shanty Town, and you can go on with the rest of your turn. Doesn't matter what two cards you drew, you're now done playing Shanty Town and can move on to playing something else. You can play actions you have in your hand; maybe you had them before you played the Shanty Town, maybe you drew them in the 2 cards from the Shanty Town.

Elyv already answered your specific questions, but I thought I'd go over the card play-by-play like that anyway, in case it helps.

I'll also end with a general comment, because stuff like this is a common source of confusion. Think of 'actions' as a counter - it's just a counter of how many action cards you can play later. If you 'have 2 actions' or 'get +2 actions', it doesn't mean that you can or are forced to play two action cards immediately; it means you have the option to play two more action cards later in the turn.
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Deadlock39

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2012, 09:45:20 pm »
+1

ftl's final comments are the source of your issues.  This is a mildly common rules confusion.

Quote from: The Dominion Intrigue Rule Book
"+X Actions" - the player may play X number of additional Actions this turn.  +X Action(s) adds to the number of Actions that can be played in the Action phase-It does not mean play another Action immediately.  The instructions on the current Action card must be completed before playing any additional Actions.  The player must complete all of his Actions before he moves on to the Buy phase of his turn.  If a card gives the player more than one additional Action, it is helpful to keep track of the number of Actions he has remaining out loud.

greatexpectations

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2012, 10:22:35 pm »
+2

shanty town rules!
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Hibernator

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2012, 11:06:00 pm »
0

Oh my god... Either I still don't get it, or Elyv and ftl are contradicting each other.

Elyv said that if I get three coppers, a Shanty town and an action card, I can not draw two cards afterwards, but he or she also said that I can still play the second action card Shanty town entitles me with if afterwards I get another action card by means of the first action card. Is this not what Elyv meant? Ftl instead said that after playing Shanty town and the only other action I had in the original draw, I'm already done with Shanty town and I can move to something else. I'm confused, can you solve this contradiction please? Can I or can I not play a second action if I got a Shanty town and one action card in the original draw? Supose I got a Shanty town, a Smithy and three Coppers, but when I play the Smithy I draw another action. Can I use it?

thank you very much

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TheMathProf

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2012, 11:46:48 pm »
+1

Yup.  Sometimes verbalizing the number of actions you have can help with the situation.

Start your turn: "I have one Action remaining."

You play the Shanty Town, using that Action, but earning two new actions in the process.  You also reveal your hand, which contains three Coppers and the Smithy.

"I have two Actions remaining."

You play the Smithy, using one of your Actions and draw three cards.  Let's suppose it's an Estate, a Copper, and another Smithy.

"I have one Action remaining."

You play the second Smithy, using your last remaining Action and draw three cards.  Let's suppose it's a Shanty Town, a Village, and another Estate.  Unfortunately, you won't be able to play any of these three new cards that you've drawn, because...

"I have no Actions remaining."
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Deadlock39

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2012, 01:46:23 am »
+1

I really think all of your confusion will be cleared up by carefully reading and considering the rules as stated in the rule book.

Quote from: The Dominion Intrigue Rule Book
"+X Actions" - the player may play X number of additional Actions this turn.  +X Action(s) adds to the number of Actions that can be played in the Action phase-It does not mean play another Action immediately.  The instructions on the current Action card must be completed before playing any additional Actions.  The player must complete all of his Actions before he moves on to the Buy phase of his turn.  If a card gives the player more than one additional Action, it is helpful to keep track of the number of Actions he has remaining out loud.

All of the responses you have been given from other users in this thread are accurate, but are not clear because I believe you are confusing the basic principle of how Actions are spent and gained during the Action phase.  Understanding fundamentally how +X Actions works will not only clear up your confusion regarding Shanty Town, but will also prevent future issues with other cards.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 01:49:58 am by Deadlock39 »
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Anon79

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2012, 01:50:38 am »
+2

Just to point out that Elyv's post does need some fixing, as below:

Quote
Let's say I have two Coppers, a Shanty town and two action cards. I play Shanty town and it allows me to play the other two action cards and I play them. 2) Do I draw two cards afterwards?
No, since Shanty Town only draws you cards if you have no actions Action cards in hand when you play it. Having none later in the turn is irrelevant.
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Hibernator

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2012, 05:19:13 am »
0

Ok, thank you everybody, I have finally understood, thanks.
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Mightyclaus

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2013, 10:57:40 am »
0

The explanition above is quite clear, thank you.
We had the exact same discussion in a recent game, and what started it was the phrasing in the rules :"You get 2 more Actions to use no matter what else happens."
1 player took this to mean: (with a hand of 1 shanty town, 1 other action and 3 coppers):
play shanty town, play the other action, then reveal a hand (with no more actions), draw 2 cards. THEN play another action, because rules says NO MATTER WHAT you are entitled to 2 extra actions.
It would be more clear if it said something like: "Reveal your hand. If you have at least 1 action cards +2 actions. If you do not have any action cards +2 cards and +2 actions."
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Powerman

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2013, 11:16:35 am »
+2

The explanition above is quite clear, thank you.
We had the exact same discussion in a recent game, and what started it was the phrasing in the rules :"You get 2 more Actions to use no matter what else happens."
1 player took this to mean: (with a hand of 1 shanty town, 1 other action and 3 coppers):
play shanty town, play the other action, then reveal a hand (with no more actions), draw 2 cards. THEN play another action, because rules says NO MATTER WHAT you are entitled to 2 extra actions.
It would be more clear if it said something like: "Reveal your hand. If you have at least 1 action cards +2 actions. If you do not have any action cards +2 cards and +2 actions."

No, that's much more wordy and does not add clarity.
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Mightyclaus

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2013, 11:50:56 am »
0



No, that's much more wordy and does not add clarity.
[/quote]

Well, the full quote from the rules says:
"You get 2 more Actions to use no matter what else happens. Then you must reveal your hand. If you have no Action cards in hand, you draw 2 cards."
So my bid is not exactly more wordy  ;) and as to clarity, as said, we had confusion from the wording "no matter what..."
So we'll use my interpretation for future games.

I'll shut up now  ;D

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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2013, 11:57:49 am »
+1

The explanition above is quite clear, thank you.
We had the exact same discussion in a recent game, and what started it was the phrasing in the rules :"You get 2 more Actions to use no matter what else happens."
1 player took this to mean: (with a hand of 1 shanty town, 1 other action and 3 coppers):
play shanty town, play the other action, then reveal a hand (with no more actions), draw 2 cards. THEN play another action, because rules says NO MATTER WHAT you are entitled to 2 extra actions.
It would be more clear if it said something like: "Reveal your hand. If you have at least 1 action cards +2 actions. If you do not have any action cards +2 cards and +2 actions."

No, that's much more wordy and does not add clarity.

He's suggesting a rewording for the rule book entry, not for the card itself.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2013, 12:03:28 pm »
+5

The player Mightyclaus mentioned was confused because of the usual lack of understanding as to what "+2 Actions" means; I don't think the rulebook needs to clarify that in the rules for every single card that gives extra actions.  The only way Shanty Town's text can cause confusion is if the player still doesn't really understand what "+2 Actions" means.
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Asper

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2013, 08:16:26 pm »
+1

General rules:

+ 1 Card: Immediately draw a card. This happens instantly, and you have to draw the card before going on. If your deck is empty, shuffle your discard and draw then.

+ 1 Action: Add an additional action to an imagined "Action account" - Do NOT immediately play another Action Card. You need Actions to play Action cards, and every one of your turns starts with exactly one Action on your account. By playing Action Cards, you draw from that account, and add to it every time a card says "+ 1 action" (or + 2 actions etc.). Mark that Action and Action Card are very different things. If you have at least one Action on your account, you may use it to play any Action Card from your hand. Condition: You are not resolving another Action Card right now. Only do one Action card at a time, doing all it says before playing another one.*

+ 1$: You will have one more Coin to spend in your buy phase. Again, this does not require you to do something immediately, but adds to your "Coin account", which you can spend at the turns buy phase and can enhance even further by playing Treasure Cards at the start of your buy phase.

+ Buy: You will have one more buy in your buy phase. This also is only accounted (even though "buy account" probably sounds silly - excuse my bad english) and does not require immediate action. + 1 buy means that in your buy phase you may split up your money to buy one more card, instead of having to spend it on only one card.

So you see, of all +1 X, only + 1 Card actually requires you to do something immediately**. All others cause you to add something to an imagined account that you can use up later on. Actions after resolving the Action Card you are reading, buys and coing in your buy phase.

All other text on an action Card you play has its effect immediately. That is, unless it says so***.


Sorry if i'm trying to be smart too much.

*Some Action Cards, like "Throne Room", "Golem", or "Cultist" tell you to play other action cards. If any card does this, you do not need any action to play the card you were made playing. In fact, playing the second card is part of resolving the first one. See it like this.
** The expansion "Prosperity" introduces another "+ 1"-thing that happens immediately, namely + 1 Victory Token (symbolized by a little crest). But that's it.
***Such effects are mainly in later expansions, but they always make clear when they happen. There are also blue Action - Reaction cards, which are a special thing. They have an Action part above a line that describes what happens when that Card is played during your own turns action phase. This has nothing to do with the part below the line (the Reaction part), and when you play such a card (like Secret Chamber) during your turn, only the part above the line happens. The Reaction part is below the line and always has some "If X happens, you may" statement. This means just what it says, namely that every time X happens, you may do whatever the card says at the reaction part. It does not matter whose turn it is and has no connection with the Action part of a a card, so even if "X happens", you can not do the part above the line.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 08:30:30 pm by Asper »
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SirPeebles

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2013, 08:27:18 pm »
+2

I personally dislike the term "virtual money", particularly in this context, because it reinforces that common misunderstanding that Treasure cards provide coins in a way different from, say, Festival.  But they don't.  Silver and Festival both give +$2 when played.  Neither is worth $2 until played, and that $2 remains regardless of whether or not the card itself remains in play.  Essentially the term "virtual money" really just means money gained by Action cards, but there is nothing more ephemeral about those coins than ones produced by Treasure cards.
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Asper

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2013, 08:31:37 pm »
0

I guess you are right. If i'm allready talking of accounting things, i shouldn't make a difference there. Changed and added Treasure Card remark.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 08:32:43 pm by Asper »
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ashersky

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2013, 11:37:20 pm »
0

I personally dislike the term "virtual money", particularly in this context, because it reinforces that common misunderstanding that Treasure cards provide coins in a way different from, say, Festival.  But they don't.  Silver and Festival both give +$2 when played.  Neither is worth $2 until played, and that $2 remains regardless of whether or not the card itself remains in play.  Essentially the term "virtual money" really just means money gained by Action cards, but there is nothing more ephemeral about those coins than ones produced by Treasure cards.

This made me wonder about if/how an imaginary card such as this would work:

Action Venture
Treasure
Some Cost

+$1

Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an action card that gives some amount of coins.  Play it immediately.  If that card provides anything other than coin, disregard those instructions.


Talk about really messing with the concept of "virtual money."  Maybe "play it immediately" doesn't work and you have some other terrible wording for "get the coin benefit only."
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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2013, 11:48:11 pm »
0

I personally dislike the term "virtual money", particularly in this context, because it reinforces that common misunderstanding that Treasure cards provide coins in a way different from, say, Festival.  But they don't.  Silver and Festival both give +$2 when played.  Neither is worth $2 until played, and that $2 remains regardless of whether or not the card itself remains in play.  Essentially the term "virtual money" really just means money gained by Action cards, but there is nothing more ephemeral about those coins than ones produced by Treasure cards.

This made me wonder about if/how an imaginary card such as this would work:

Action Venture
Treasure
Some Cost

+$1

Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an action card that gives some amount of coins.  Play it immediately.  If that card provides anything other than coin, disregard those instructions.


Talk about really messing with the concept of "virtual money."  Maybe "play it immediately" doesn't work and you have some other terrible wording for "get the coin benefit only."

What about cards like Minion, Pawn, Mining Village, Count, Secret Chamber, Vault, Storeroom, Harvest, Tribute, Ironworks, Ironmonger and probably others which may or may not generate coin?
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ashersky

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2013, 11:53:54 pm »
0

I personally dislike the term "virtual money", particularly in this context, because it reinforces that common misunderstanding that Treasure cards provide coins in a way different from, say, Festival.  But they don't.  Silver and Festival both give +$2 when played.  Neither is worth $2 until played, and that $2 remains regardless of whether or not the card itself remains in play.  Essentially the term "virtual money" really just means money gained by Action cards, but there is nothing more ephemeral about those coins than ones produced by Treasure cards.

This made me wonder about if/how an imaginary card such as this would work:

Action Venture
Treasure
Some Cost

+$1

Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an action card that gives some amount of coins.  Play it immediately.  If that card provides anything other than coin, disregard those instructions.


Talk about really messing with the concept of "virtual money."  Maybe "play it immediately" doesn't work and you have some other terrible wording for "get the coin benefit only."

What about cards like Minion, Pawn, Mining Village, Count, Secret Chamber, Vault, Storeroom, Harvest, Tribute, Ironworks, Ironmonger and probably others which may or may not generate coin?

Word it to be "A card that has +$X"?  Still makes for confusion with choices on Minion/Pawn, etc.
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SirPeebles

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Re: rules for Shanty town
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2013, 11:59:11 pm »
0

I personally dislike the term "virtual money", particularly in this context, because it reinforces that common misunderstanding that Treasure cards provide coins in a way different from, say, Festival.  But they don't.  Silver and Festival both give +$2 when played.  Neither is worth $2 until played, and that $2 remains regardless of whether or not the card itself remains in play.  Essentially the term "virtual money" really just means money gained by Action cards, but there is nothing more ephemeral about those coins than ones produced by Treasure cards.

This made me wonder about if/how an imaginary card such as this would work:

Action Venture
Treasure
Some Cost

+$1

Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an action card that gives some amount of coins.  Play it immediately.  If that card provides anything other than coin, disregard those instructions.


Talk about really messing with the concept of "virtual money."  Maybe "play it immediately" doesn't work and you have some other terrible wording for "get the coin benefit only."

What about cards like Minion, Pawn, Mining Village, Count, Secret Chamber, Vault, Storeroom, Harvest, Tribute, Ironworks, Ironmonger and probably others which may or may not generate coin?

Word it to be "A card that has +$X"?  Still makes for confusion with choices on Minion/Pawn, etc.

It would be awkward, but oh well.  Strong synergy with Death Cart and Poor House, so long as they aren't in your hand.
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