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Author Topic: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair  (Read 10349 times)

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gamesou

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Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« on: June 11, 2015, 06:02:20 am »
+72

This combo seems to have some potential.

The idea is to never buy any card beyond Copper, Counting House and green.

Fill your deck with copper ($3 -> Copper x2, $4 -> Copper x3) and buy a Counting House when you get $5. It's likely that you will have a lot of copper in your discard pile when playing CH. If you have $7, buy and top-deck a Counting House.

When you manage to get $13, buy Travelling Fair x4, Couting House, Copper x4.  Top-deck everything. The "engine" has now started. You will no longer shuffle and get more and more buying power. Repeat and replace progressively coppers by green cards.

This can be killed by the opponent triggering a reshuffle.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 06:13:11 am by gamesou »
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2015, 07:25:17 am »
+2

It's nice to point it out since it exploits nicely the mechanisms of the cards. But is it reliable ?

"When you manage to get $13" Good luck with that. Of course if you don't have an empty deck then you aren't forced to topdeck 5 cards but still :
-you need extra buys (so actions or lots of money for TF that acts like a "village of buys" (1 buy to get 2 but you spend $2) )
-it's very unlikely to work, since opponents should grab 2 provinces in the meantime with another strategy.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 08:27:39 am by ChocophileBenj »
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2015, 09:49:43 am »
+4

It's nice to point it out since it exploits nicely the mechanisms of the cards. But is it reliable ?

"When you manage to get $13" Good luck with that. Of course if you don't have an empty deck then you aren't forced to topdeck 5 cards but still :
-you need extra buys (so actions or lots of money for TF that acts like a "village of buys" (1 buy to get 2 but you spend $2) )
-it's very unlikely to work, since opponents should grab 2 provinces in the meantime with another strategy.

I think you are underestimating the combo. You don't need to hit 13 to get started. The first time you get a counting house "at the right time" you can buy another and topdeck it to stack your deck with traveling fair. This greatly increaess the odds of getting 13 again in the near future. As soon as you hit 13, you're provincing every turn until endgame, with room for some duchies to tiebreak. Moreover, you're immune to discard or cursing attacks. If you can do this by turn 12 or so, you'll beat most strategies I can think of. I expect this to be pretty dominant.

I imagine this is a frustrating combo in a mirror, on the order of rebuild, where, once both plays have a vague idea what they are doing, the impact of minor differences in decision-making will be trumped by who draws counting house in the right part of the shuffle first.
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2015, 10:20:51 am »
+17

I just tried it.

Turn 8: 1st Province
Turn 9: 2nd Province
Turn 10: 3rd Province
Turn 11: 4th and 5th Provinces
Turn 12: Last 3 Provinces and a Duchy.

You basically have to be uncontested in Counting Houses, though. I bought 9 of them in order to pull it off.

EDIT: My deck had 36 Coppers by the end.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 10:22:42 am by LastFootnote »
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2015, 10:56:40 am »
+3

Lol
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2015, 11:15:04 am »
+3

You basically have to be uncontested in Counting Houses, though. I bought 9 of them in order to pull it off.

Well, even if you're contested in Counting Houses, that just means that it'll suck for both players so it's still fine.

jomini

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2015, 12:42:35 pm »
+3

This is also extremely vulnerable to Possession, Pillage and Minion.

Possession will of course steal your good turns, but it will also leave you without a Chouse on top (depending on if you have more in your draw deck, this might not matter). Getting Possession by T9 or so is hard, but doable (opening Silver/Chap can expect to hit Possession around T8).

Pillage, if hit consistently, can leave you without a Chouse in hand. Hitting once during the build up could be a severely crippling attack (as you won't have as many Chouses you can topdeck).

Minion can do the same, though given that you draw 4 more cards, it may not matter if you get enough early Chouses.

Cutpurse will work wonders on slowing this - all coppers means that Cpurse turns mean no Chouse buys in the early game. You will have a lot slower liftoff if you can't hit Chouse on T3/4. Cpurse/Masq can just destroy this by forcing the discard of 4 coppers and then getting rid of a Chouse from the game. Taxman might also work to buy time here.

You also might be able to disrupt this with Thief of all things. You can force a reshuffle (as can Tribute or Oracle), but you can also crush coppers. Something like Kc/Thief might be enough to trigger reshuffles and diminish copper stocks. Pirate ship works the same, but better. Knights make another option - kill Chouses, force a reshuffle, and kill any duchies. Rogue has potential, but you will have to play him a lot more and likely want a way to deal with the Chouses you gain. Most likely you'd need a way to play a lot of these quickly (e.g. Kc), but anything that flips your top two cards can get those bad reshuffles in sooner.
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2015, 12:52:31 pm »
+37

I love that suddenly it needs to be proved that counting house isn't completely unstoppable.

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2015, 02:01:17 pm »
+8

And now it has a wiki page.
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2015, 02:46:14 pm »
+2

I hadn't really thought about Traveling Fair until now. It's too bad Highway doesn't reduce the cost of Events.
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terminalCopper

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2015, 02:56:02 pm »
+3

And now it has a wiki page.

I think it is way too early for that.
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2015, 03:02:14 pm »
+5

And now it has a wiki page.

I think it is way too early for that.

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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werothegreat

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2015, 03:06:07 pm »
+8

And now it has a wiki page.

I think it is way too early for that.

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

*bangs on screws furiously*

Can someone get me a file to get all these twisty bits off?
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2015, 04:17:34 pm »
+2

And now it has a wiki page.

I think it is way too early for that.

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

*bangs on screws furiously*

Can someone get me a file to get all these twisty bits off?

Dude, just hit it with the hammer some more, it will work out :P
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2015, 06:13:50 pm »
0

Do we finally have something which makes Counting House/Coppersmith work (with a Village of course)?
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2015, 06:15:46 pm »
0

Do we finally have something which makes Counting House/Coppersmith work (with a Village of course)?

You could maybe swing that with COTR or Lost Arts, but there's an opportunity cost if you go for the Coppersmith.
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gamesou

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2015, 03:20:03 am »
+1

Some more thoughts:

* even if the opponent manages to trigger a reshuffle, the Counting House player can regenerate like a phoenix, and possibly be even more powerful. For example I expect the combo to crush Oracle-BM or weak Scrying Pool engines.

* the biggest threat is perhaps the depletion of the Counting House pile. This means that a wise opponent can deny them, and in many boards this might be enough to stop the combo.

* however, some cards give more longevity to the combo player since they can be used as a virtual second stack of Counting Houses. I can think of Herald, Scheme and Inn.

* keep in mind that even if the Counting House pile is empty, the combo player will have some lucky megaturns if the game lasts.

* Coppersmith (+any village) has been mentioned as a card which helps the combo. Another one is Bank, which can be easily worth $30 or more. However, the biggest question on a given board is whether the combo is dominant or can be countered, and the presence of Coppersmith/Bank should be almost irrelevant to answer this.
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terminalCopper

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2015, 04:52:40 am »
+9

I figured out that its very important to hit $7 after at most two shuffles. The gaining of coppers has the downside that your first shuffle will take T3-T5, and your next shuffle T6-T9. If by then you did not get any $7-hand, you will have to wait for a counting house in, say, T10-T14; and if your $7 shows up at e.g. T12, you will probably need till T16 to get to five provinces. This is ok on a weak board, but too late compared to a good engine. In other terms:

The odds to hit $7 before a third shuffle is crucial, and to start with, I will approximate the simple scenario of opening 3/4 gaining 5 coppers in total:

In that case, you have 15 cards including 12 coppers and three estates, distributed on three turns, namely T3, T4, T5.

a) The risk to hit $4 three times is 10/14 * 5/13 (approximately 27.5 percent).
b) The chance to hit $5 twice (buying CH twice and two coppers) is 4/14 * 3/13 (approximately 6.6%)
c) in all other cases you get exactly one CH and it is recommended to gain 4 additional coppers (if you buy 5, it makes your decksize 21 cards, that creates an unnecessary 1/21 risk to miss CH next shuffle). The odds of c) are 1-27.5%-6.6% = 65.9%

-> a) If you miss a CH on T3-T5, you wont get 7 before the next shuffle.
-> b) If you have 2 CHs, you have 19 cards including 3 estates and 2 CHs. This leads to three turns T6, T7, T8, and four cards will be seen after a reshuffle in T9 (which is bad). That means, you will need a third shuffle, if both CHs show up in T6 or T9, the odds are 9/19 * 8/18 =4/19 (approx. 21.1. %).
-> c) You need a third shuffle, if your counting house comes in T6 (25%)

Total: The odds to need three shuffles in (27.5%*100%) + (6.6%*21.1%) + (65.9%*25%) = 45.4%.

The other way round, you will be able to hit $7 and rush the provinces before the third shuffle in 55.6% of all solitaire games starting 4/3.

This is, by now, not the whole story, e.g. you might start 5/2 or topdeck coppers on 4/3. But I think this analysis allows some rough ...

... conclusions:

Basically, its a kind of coinflip whether you will get to 5 provinces extremely fast (lets call this scenario T12") or solely with a mediocre speed (called T16").

If there is a strong alternative, that will certainly beat T16 and still has some potential to beat you at T12, the combo is too weak.
If the best alternative will certainly lose against T12 and still have trouble beating T16, the combo is strong.
In middling scenarios, T12 will likely win, and T16 will likely lose. In that case, Cutpurse (or similar) will make the difference, because with the attack, T16 becomes more likely than T12. And so:

  • On a weak board, go for it.
  • On a mediocre board, go for it if there is no attack like cutpurse.
  • Otherwise, skip it if there is an engine/combo that might beat 5 provs by T12.

In other terms: Counting House/Travelling Fair is more often the best way to go than not. Thx for posting it, gamesou :)
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gamesou

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2015, 12:06:52 pm »
+3

What is totally unclear to me is whether you should topdeck your early copper buys.
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2015, 01:35:35 pm »
+6

1. It's a real shame we can't play with this online, it would be really educational to see how it matches up against lots of different strategies :(

2. I would be really interested to see the differences between Province games and Colony games in practice, I think that the Colony situation would be very interesting, since CH already likes Colony boards.

3. I too am skeptical of getting your first CH using only Copper. Granted, when you're top-decking Copper it's probably more feasible, but I really would like to be able to play lots of games with this and see what kinds of enablers can be worthwhile to help you hit an early $5.

4. This is actually really cool and groundbreaking. I'm sort of disappointed that the OP doesn't have like 55 +1s. This is probably the best post these forums have seen in several months IMO.
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2015, 02:09:35 pm »
+10

3. I too am skeptical of getting your first CH using only Copper. Granted, when you're top-decking Copper it's probably more feasible, but I really would like to be able to play lots of games with this and see what kinds of enablers can be worthwhile to help you hit an early $5.

If you have $3 on turn 1 you're guaranteed to hit $5 before you shuffle:

1. CCCEE -> CC (CCECC)
2. CCCCE -> CCC (CC)
3. CCCCC

If you have $4 on turn 1 and don't hit $5 before you shuffle, you're guaranteed to hit $5 three times before you shuffle twice:

1. CCCCE -> CCC (CECEC)
2. CCCCE -> CCC (CEC) (If you only get $3 on turn 3 you'll get $5 on turn 3.)
3. CCCCE -> CCC (C)
4. CCCCE -> CCC (CECECCCCCCCCCCCC)
5. CCCCE -> CCC (CECCCCCCCCCCCC)
6. CCCCE -> CCC (CCCCCCCCCCCC)
7. CCCCC (CCCCCCCCCC)
8. CCCCC (CCCCC)
9. CCCCC

EDIT: Obviously this is assuming no disruptive attacks.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 02:14:03 pm by Jimmmmm »
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2015, 02:34:10 pm »
+1

Travelling Fair: Open by topdecking Coppers and get three turns before your first shuffle.  It's like opening Mandarin, but more reliable.
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2015, 09:51:59 pm »
+3

I was thinking about this a bit today and I'm wondering when this would also work with Pstone?

Pstone has the advantage that you do not care about shuffle timing at all. You can also mix and match a lot of terminals that become dead weight for Chouse. To ensure a buy a Pstone you just need $10 (three Tfairs and $4 for the Pot), and this quite likely an overestimate as you only need $8 if you can hit copper for sure and $6 if you can be assured of hitting two coppers or silver (so looking at Jimmmm's numbers you should be able to start top decking to $6 around T5 without too much trouble). Getting a replaceable strategy going just requires $9P ($3P for the Pstone, $4 for the Pot, and $2 for the Tfair). Getting your Pstones to be worth $9P requires 45 cards in deck, meaning you need to gain 35 this I think isn't that hard. First, I think 3 cards per turn is not too hard with Tfair. Secondly, if you are bloating your deck with copper, it isn't too hard to count on just one copper in 3 when all you have in deck is estates; even $2 is a pretty safe bet. I'd have to do some work to see if this could be faster than Chouse, but the pricing isn't too horrid.

Now Pstone does not gain value as fast as Chouse (1/5 the gain in buying power), but you don't need as much build up ($19P for Province + reliable top deck), you could top deck Pstone/Pot/Pot to set up a double shot, and because you are cycling (possibly even setting something awesome like Storeroom on top with Pstone/Pot); you will have some double Pstone turns.

This is, of course, more vulnerable to discard attacks than Chouse, but you cannot ruin anything by forcing an early shuffle (Gov, Cr, Tribute, Knights, Rogue, Pool, etc.). Does it gain value fast enough to beat engines? I'm not terribly sure. At $9P you are gaining $.6 per turn. This does increase, but only slowly. However, unlike Chouse there are a lot of cards that can make this stronger - any sort of sifting (like Warehouse, Storeroom, etc.) can get you decent returns on lining up Pstones. Likewise have good number of enablers: Beggar (top deck him for $4, gain $3 this turn and 3 cards for next turn), Squire (lose a buy this turn, get it back with a spare next turn), Herbalist (defer a +buy, reuse Pstones/Pots), Cache (more quickly increase your bloat), Death Cart (cheap bloat, easily sling shot to high values), Stonemason (cheap bloat).


Some of these, like Squire or Beggar might help Chouse (you can top deck Beggar at the top of a shuffle for a quick Chouse buy, or to top deck another Beggar and quickly ramp up your Chouse yield) as well, but Pstone has flexibility with shuffles so you can try stuff like Scav or Sage. Gut impulse is that Chouse is stronger, even with the shuffle dynamics ... but I think Pstone can do the trick as well which might be fun.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 02:58:28 pm by jomini »
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2015, 03:12:47 pm »
+2

Someone Embargoing the Coppers early enough against this would be hilarious.

(Though, I'm not actually sure what would even qualify as "early enough"...)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 03:22:12 pm by mith »
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2015, 03:28:08 pm »
+2

Someone Embargoing the Coppers early enough against this would be hilarious.

(Though, I'm not actually sure what would even qualify as "early enough"...)

I'm not so sure how much that would hurt actually. It seems like this combo would be very resilient to Cursing; you could just get all 10 Curses in your deck and maybe not care.
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2015, 03:48:40 pm »
+1

Someone Embargoing the Coppers early enough against this would be hilarious.

(Though, I'm not actually sure what would even qualify as "early enough"...)

I'm not so sure how much that would hurt actually. It seems like this combo would be very resilient to Cursing; you could just get all 10 Curses in your deck and maybe not care.

Well, it's still pretty cost-efficient just for the VP and doesn't take up space in your deck.

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2015, 05:14:28 pm »
0

I mean, if you Embargo them before they buy the first Counting House, they're going to have a harder time making it to $5; but chances of that are pretty low. After, and you maybe add a turn or two to them finding their Counting House and starting the combo (which could be enough depending on the board).

Effective or not, definitely hilarious.
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2015, 05:50:50 pm »
+2

Someone Embargoing the Coppers early enough against this would be hilarious.

(Though, I'm not actually sure what would even qualify as "early enough"...)

I'm not so sure how much that would hurt actually. It seems like this combo would be very resilient to Cursing; you could just get all 10 Curses in your deck and maybe not care.

Well, it's still pretty cost-efficient just for the VP and doesn't take up space in your deck.

Good point, it's like buying a $2 self-Islanding Colony.
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2015, 12:29:10 am »
+1

So... I guess this means we can't put Counting House on the bottom of Qvist's $5 list anymore.
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2015, 06:31:16 am »
+4

So... I guess this means we can't put Counting House on the bottom of Qvist's $5 list anymore.

It has always been better than Tribute.

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2015, 02:24:59 am »
+5

So... I guess this means we can't put Counting House on the bottom of Qvist's $5 list anymore.

It has always been better than Tribute.

Tribute is fine! Harvest is clearly the new Counting House.
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vsiewnar

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2015, 04:24:19 pm »
+5

I played a 6-player game with these two yesterday.

Off the top of my head, other cards in the kingdom were Stonemason, City, Wharf, Miser, Walled Village, Expand, Conspirator, Counting House (mentioned earlier), Sage. The events were Expedition and Traveling Fair (mentioned earlier). It was a Colony/Platinum game.

Two players went for the Counting House/Traveling Fair combo (and claimed the first two spots). Other observations include:

-The City/Wharf/Conspirator engine with Expand and Stonemason was competitive with the Traveling Fair/Counting House strategy. It was also (perhaps, obviously) more flexible.
-Opponents started buying/gaining Counting Houses once they realised the potency of the combo. They could then Expand the Counting Houses in whatever they liked - a typical denial strategy
-The presence of Sage made me more hopeful for the Counting House strategy had the deck been forced to re-shuffle once the Counting Houses were exhausted. Though Sage could find expensive green cards, it could also find Counting Houses and usually after it skips some copper. Typical hands of 5 coin made it easy to top-deck Sages.

These are just some observations I wanted to share with the forum considering the novelty of the combo. It is not meant to be extremely enlightening or insightful.   
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2015, 07:25:51 pm »
+2

The odds to hit $7 before a third shuffle is crucial, and to start with, I will approximate the simple scenario of opening 3/4 gaining 5 coppers in total:

In that case, you have 15 cards including 12 coppers and three estates, distributed on three turns, namely T3, T4, T5.
You missed that you can gain the coppers to the top of the pile. Very frequently, you will gain a Counting House in T1-T3 and get to in T3-T6. (If T3 is first or second reshuffle, depends on the opening).

Here are the approximate chances to get to in T3-T6
2/5 or 5/2: ~81%
3/4: ~73%
4/3: ~42%

The math behind these numbers:
2/5 or 5/2: open CH and 2C, then T3 you will draw CC???. If none of the ? is CH, you will get to (I neglected the possibility that all three of them are E).

3/4: open 2C
a) in T2 you draw 5C, buy CH and T3 will be EC??? which will get to if none of the ? is CH.
b) in T2 you draw 4C1E, buy 3C and a CH in T3. If you do not draw CH in T4 (11/16 chance), you'll get to in T5 or T6.
(again I neglected the possibility to draw all estates)

4/3 is the worst option. After opening with 3C, you still have a 40% chance to draw CCCCE in T2 and T3 and not be able to afford a CH. The other scenarios buy a CH in T2 or T3 and lead to similar chances as the other openings.
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2015, 12:04:45 pm »
+2

For 2/5 or 5/2, drawing CCEEE turn 3 doesn't stop you hitting the combo, but you need to top deck exactly 1 of the coppers:

Turn 3: CCEEE, buy CC (top deck 1; 9 cards in deck)
Turn 4: CCCCC, buy CCC (top deck 1; 5 cards in deck)
Turn 5: CCCCH, $14, combo

or

Turn 3: CCEEE, buy CC (top deck 1; 9 cards in deck)
Turn 4: CCCCH, $8, buy HC (top deck; 6 cards in deck)
Turn 5: CCCCH, $12, buy HCCC (top deck; 5 cards in deck)
Turn 6: CCCCH, $15, combo

If you top deck both, you end up with $6 if you draw the Counting House turn 4; if you discard both, you still get to $12 in the second case but with no cards left you trigger a shuffle. I'm pretty sure you can get the combo going by turn 6 as long as you don't draw the Counting House turn 3, regardless of where the Estates land (and can buy all Provinces by turn 10 or 11 depending on where the initial Counting House falls).
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 12:13:29 pm by mith »
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aku_chi

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2015, 12:39:51 am »
+10

This thread motivated me to play some Counting House, Travelling Fair solitaire.

My conclusion: this combo is the real deal.  Even when I got one of the worst starts for the combo (4/3, no Counting House until turn 9), I managed to get 55 victory points by turn 12.  And I only needed to buy 4 Counting Houses!

Turn 1: CCCCE - buy 3 copper (on top)
Turn 2: CCCCE - buy 3 copper (in discard)
-- Shuffle --
Turn 3: CCCCE - buy 3 copper (on top)
Turn 4: CCCCC - buy Counting House
Turn 5: CCCCE - buy 3 copper (in discard)
-- Shuffle --
Turn 6: CCCCE - buy 3 copper (in discard)
Turn 7: CCCCC - buy 3 copper (in discard)
Turn 8: CCCCE - buy 3 copper (in discard)
Turn 9: HCCCE - buy Counting House + 2 Provinces (on top)
Turn 10: HCCPP - buy Counting House + Copper + 2 Provinces (on top)
Turn 11: HCCPP - buy Counting House + 2 Copper + 2 Provinces (on top)
Turn 12: HCCPP - buy 2 Provinces + 1 Duchy + 1 Estate

The power of conditionally top-decking cards adds a lot of reliability to the combo.  Early on, you want to keep track of where your Estates are to decide if it's worth top-decking for (a chance at) a Counting House or discarding to accelerate to your reshuffle.  Once you have purchased a Counting House, you want to trigger a reshuffle with 4 cards in your deck (to minimize the chance of a wasted Counting House).  When you're searching for your Counting House you only want to top-deck to ensure that you can draw Counting House without triggering a reshuffle.  Once you start the combo, I think you always want to top-deck everything, to provide some buffer cards in your deck so you can go double-Province earlier.

Great find, gamesou!
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2015, 06:15:52 pm »
+6

I played this today IRL in 3p.  The other two went for a strongish engine involving Hunting Grounds, Throne Room, Lost Arts and Shanty Town with a payload involving Swamp Hag (admittedly no trashing, which doesn't help the engine, but meh).

I took 15 of the 20 Curses, I think I misplayed it pretty badly (my first time with it), but still won by at least 30 points.  That puts a tick next to this combo in my book.
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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2015, 08:32:54 am »
+3

So, pardon the relative newbie with a likely newbie question.

I finally had a chance to ply this solitaire a few times to try and get a handle on it.  After some false starts I finally got (something resembling) the hang of it, and on turn 14 it purchased 3 provinces, including #9.  This cost me 8 of the Counting Houses (CH) and would have emptied the copper deck in the 3-4 player games I typically play with the rest of the group.

Now for this test I was ignoring the existence of anything else (like Duchies), so obviously I want to go back and include them.  The reason I came here first is what I noticed when I counted the cards in the deck afterwards: it came in @ 65.  That's more than the Garden Threshold - the point at which a Garden is worth 6 VP.  I probably notice that because we got in the habit of always having a 4th VP and Treasure on the table (Prosperity was our first expansion, I had it before most of the group played the first time) so I probably see the alt-VP cards more often.

Has anyone else given any thought \ tests to how this interaction changes if Gardens is in the kingdom as well?

==============

Feel free to check my math.  I edited out some notes where I'm trying to figure out when to topdeck versus discard (it's rather obvious you always discard once this gets going but the early turns still aren't clear to me).


1. 3 coin = 2 copper, discard.
2. 4 coin = 3 copper, top deck.
3. 5 coin = First CH.  SHUFFLE.  16 cards in deck.
4. 4 coin + CH (unlucky) = 3 coin, discard.
5. 3 coin = 2 copper, top deck.
6. 5 coin = Second CH (a bit of luck, I think).  19 cards in deck.
7. 4 coin= 3 copper, discard.
8. 4 coin = 3 copper, discard.
9. 3 coin + both CH, resulting in 17 coin = our 13-coin engine starts.
   ○ TF x6, put 2 copper in discard and the 13-coin engine on top.
10. 4 coin + CH, resulting in 23 copper = 1st Province.
11. 4 coin + CH, resulting in 27 copper = 2nd Province + 2 copper
12. 4 coin + CH, resulting in 33 copper = 3rd & 4th Provinces
13. 4 coin + 6th CH, resulting in 37 copper = 5th & 6th Provinces + 2 copper
14. 4 coin + 7th CH, resulting in 43 copper = (8th CH) = 7th-9th Provinces
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 08:41:59 am by TheEmerged »
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mee

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2015, 02:25:09 pm »
0

I think an easy way to stop this would be for the other player to buy counting houses especially if there is a tfb or any strong trashing  it seems in order for this to work you need to be able to buy lots of counting houses more than 6
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Awaclus

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2015, 02:37:28 pm »
+1

I think an easy way to stop this would be for the other player to buy counting houses especially if there is a tfb or any strong trashing  it seems in order for this to work you need to be able to buy lots of counting houses more than 6

You basically have to be uncontested in Counting Houses, though. I bought 9 of them in order to pull it off.

Well, even if you're contested in Counting Houses, that just means that it'll suck for both players so it's still fine.

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2015, 04:48:52 pm »
+1

I think an easy way to stop this would be for the other player to buy counting houses especially if there is a tfb or any strong trashing  it seems in order for this to work you need to be able to buy lots of counting houses more than 6

You basically have to be uncontested in Counting Houses, though. I bought 9 of them in order to pull it off.

Well, even if you're contested in Counting Houses, that just means that it'll suck for both players so it's still fine.
Same sort of thing with Hermit/Market Square/Madman. You're bound to lose if you don't go for it and your opponent does. Maybe in 3+p, the one not going for the Combo can eek out a win somehow.
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aku_chi

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2015, 09:44:17 am »
+1

I think an easy way to stop this would be for the other player to buy counting houses especially if there is a tfb or any strong trashing  it seems in order for this to work you need to be able to buy lots of counting houses more than 6
Not necessarily.  It depends on when you draw your first Counting House.  In the solitaire game I logged above, I got 55 victory points by turn 12 with four Counting Houses.  It would have been very difficult (and counterproductive) for an opponent to grab 7+ Counting Houses in that time, unless they were employing this strategy themselves.

Feel free to check my math.  I edited out some notes where I'm trying to figure out when to topdeck versus discard (it's rather obvious you always discard once this gets going but the early turns still aren't clear to me).

1. 3 coin = 2 copper, discard.
2. 4 coin = 3 copper, top deck.
3. 5 coin = First CH.  SHUFFLE.  16 cards in deck.
4. 4 coin + CH (unlucky) = 3 coin, discard.
5. 3 coin = 2 copper, top deck.
6. 5 coin = Second CH (a bit of luck, I think).  19 cards in deck.
7. 4 coin= 3 copper, discard.
8. 4 coin = 3 copper, discard.
9. 3 coin + both CH, resulting in 17 coin = our 13-coin engine starts.
   ○ TF x6, put 2 copper in discard and the 13-coin engine on top.
10. 4 coin + CH, resulting in 23 copper = 1st Province.
11. 4 coin + CH, resulting in 27 copper = 2nd Province + 2 copper
12. 4 coin + CH, resulting in 33 copper = 3rd & 4th Provinces
13. 4 coin + 6th CH, resulting in 37 copper = 5th & 6th Provinces + 2 copper
14. 4 coin + 7th CH, resulting in 43 copper = (8th CH) = 7th-9th Provinces
TheEmerged, I would have played out the end slightly differently.  If I follow the log correctly, you have 7 cards in your deck on turn 9.  I would start by buying a Province immediately and got to 8 Provinces on turn 13.
9. 3 coin + both CH, resulting in 17 coin = buy Counting House, Province, Copper, top-deck. <- 10 cards in deck
10. 3 coin + CH, resulting in 20 copper = buy Counting House, Province, 2 Coppers, top-deck <- 9 cards in deck
11. 3 coin + CH, resulting in 23 copper = buy Counting House, Province, 4 Coppers, top-deck <- 10 cards in deck
12. 4 coin + CH, resulting in 27 copper = buy Counting House, 2 Provinces, Copper, top-deck <- 9 cards in deck
13. 1 coin + CH, resulting in 28 copper = buy 3 Provinces

It might have been worthwhile to discard some of the gained coppers on turns 9 or 10, to liberate more of the coppers in your deck.

As for buying the second Counting House pre-combo, I have mixed feelings.  On the upside, it eliminates the chance of drawing your only Counting House with an empty discard pile and it will result in the combo beginning earlier in the third shuffle (on average).  On the other side, it's almost impossible to take advantage of a Counting House in your deck once you begin the combo, and the opportunity cost is 3 coppers in your deck and one more Counting House in the pile.  I can't decide if it makes more or less sense to get a second pre-combo Counting House if they are contested.
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J Reggie

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2016, 12:01:35 am »
+1

I'm sort of disappointed that the OP doesn't have like 55 +1s.

Well this actually happened

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2017, 03:03:43 am »
+6

Just had this come up with Banquet. 8 Provinces in 9 turns... that was pretty nice.
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crj

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Re: Combo : Counting House/Travelling Fair
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2017, 11:29:11 am »
0

The reason I came here first is what I noticed when I counted the cards in the deck afterwards: it came in @ 65.  That's more than the Garden Threshold - the point at which a Garden is worth 6 VP.
The "Garden threshold" is lower with Travelling Fair in the kingdom, though.

To keep the maths simple, I'll ignore the fact you don't need a Travelling Fair for the first card you buy each turn..

So: a Province costs $10 and gives you 6VP, i.e. 0.6VP/coin spent; Gardens only needs to be worth 4VP in order to give you 0.66VP/coin if they cost $6 each.


But if the kingdom contains Counting House, Travelling Fair and Gardens, I bet the killer strategy is to keep buying Copper for as long as possible then three-pile Copper, Gardens and something else.

Starting with your example for the early rounds of the game, assuming two players and assuming the remaining 6 Copper from your draw pile gradually filters into your discard pile, we begin turn 9 with 23 Copper in your deck, 30 in the supply; 2CH in your deck, 8 in the supply:

Turn 9: $17; Buy CH and 6 Copper
Turn 10: $23; Buy CH and 9 Copper
Turn 11: $34; Buy CH and 14 Copper
Turn 12: $50; Buy CH, final Copper, 7 Gardens
Turn 13: $51; Buy final Gardens, all 8 Estate, 3 Province

Final deck: 11 Estate, 53 Copper, 6 CH, 8 Gardens, 3 Province = 81 cards.

Result: 93VP!
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