Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: How do you feel about Champion?  (Read 8870 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7202
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10017
    • View Profile
How do you feel about Champion?
« on: June 08, 2015, 02:59:20 pm »
+1

I knew that there would be some backlash in the community about Champion, but there seems to be way more than I expected. Maybe it's just a vocal minority. How do you feel about Champion? I'll post my opinions after I set up the poll.
Logged

jsh357

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2577
  • Shuffle iT Username: jsh357
  • Respect: +4337
    • View Profile
    • JSH Gaming: Original games
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2015, 03:02:19 pm »
0

Where is the backlash?  I was also worried about/looking forward to this.
Logged
Join the Dominion community Discord channel! Chat in text and voice; enter dumb tournaments; spy on top players!

https://discord.gg/2rDpJ4N

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7202
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10017
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2015, 03:03:02 pm »
0

Where is the backlash?  I was also worried about/looking forward to this.

I've seen it here and there casually mentioned around the site. Basically the argument is that it trivializes the game by removing a major portion of it. As you (jsh) know, I don't personally subscribe to that argument, but there it is.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 03:04:11 pm by LastFootnote »
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8904
  • Respect: +9688
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2015, 03:06:35 pm »
+3

I've been seeing backlash too. Mostly about how the limited actions are an important mechanic of Dominion, and Champion just removes that mechanic.

I definitely disagree. Maybe if you could get Champion right away, sure. But you can't, which means that you still need to carefully balance your terminals. You want enough that Champion really helps, but not too many that you're stalling out while waiting to get Champion. It's just a different balance than you normally have. Just like how games with villages need a different terminal balance than games without.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8904
  • Respect: +9688
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2015, 03:08:26 pm »
+3

I think the poll needs and option that's anti-champion but not as strong as "it sucks". Or maybe just a rewording of that option. I'm not sure if the anti-champion people I've seen would go as far as to say "it sucks".
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Drab Emordnilap

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1832
  • Shuffle iT Username: Drab Emordnilap
  • Luther Bell Hendricks V
  • Respect: +1883
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2015, 03:16:43 pm »
+2

Champion is fine. I hate Warrior with a passion. If I could remove one card from the game forever, it would be Warrior.
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7202
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10017
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2015, 03:20:52 pm »
+1

I think the poll needs and option that's anti-champion but not as strong as "it sucks". Or maybe just a rewording of that option. I'm not sure if the anti-champion people I've seen would go as far as to say "it sucks".

Acknowledged. Option changed.
Logged

A Drowned Kernel

  • 2015 World Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1067
  • They/Them
  • Respect: +1977
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2015, 03:23:58 pm »
+1

I did experience the worst-case scenario introducing someone to the card, where we were playing a 4-player game and she lost both of the Travellers she bought at the beginning to other people's Warriors. In the same round. She called it "the worst game of Dominion [she's] ever played."

Champion is silly but fun, and honestly I think the Peasant line might be more game-changing.
Logged
The perfect engine
But it will never go off
Three piles are empty

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2453
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2015, 03:49:50 pm »
+2

I don't think there really can be much backlash against Champion until more people have played with it. And, even those who have played with it (aside from play testers) most likely have only a handful of games with that card under their belt. Until, MF implements it, I don't think a majority of us have any right to judge the card.
Logged

swedenman

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
  • Respect: +118
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2015, 04:00:57 pm »
0

I think it looks fun. It'll be nice giving all of the shitty terminals a chance to shine. I agree that Warrior looks dumb.
Logged

belugawhale

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 159
  • Something.
  • Respect: +212
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2015, 04:23:09 pm »
0

Warrior really ruins things once you have a Champion, because they can be played as Laboratories with a crazy attack. Once, I got seven Travellers in play and proceeded to sift through my opponent's deck, trashing his only Warrior.
Logged
removed by user

Voltaire

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 957
  • flavor text
  • Respect: +1097
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2015, 04:28:03 pm »
+2

Though "infinite actions" is part of what separates Dominion from the inferior deckbuilders, it's not actually why I dislike the card.

This is a tentative opinion. I have a very limited (5-10) set of games with the card. I'm worried that, like Tournament, it might be a "mini-game" that you're almost always forced to play, because the payoff/advantage along the way is so strong. Of course, I don't entirely dislike Tournament. Rather, I mostly just prefer other cards.

This could all be tempered by learning we're overvaluing the card, or that Champion is frequently beatable, or ultimately too slow, etc. Lots of caveats remain.
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2478
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2015, 04:36:19 pm »
0

Champion isn't worth it at all on boards where you have the time for and access to villages and there are no crippling attacks by the time you would get it. Those boards aren't uncommon, and there are also going to be plenty of boards where it's just mediocre.
Logged

A Drowned Kernel

  • 2015 World Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1067
  • They/Them
  • Respect: +1977
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2015, 04:51:22 pm »
0

Champion isn't worth it at all on boards where you have the time for and access to villages and there are no crippling attacks by the time you would get it. Those boards aren't uncommon, and there are also going to be plenty of boards where it's just mediocre.

The problem is that the Page line includes Warrior, which isn't automatically a crippling attack but I imagine can get to be pretty strong if the Champion player goes uncontested.
Logged
The perfect engine
But it will never go off
Three piles are empty

Archetype

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
  • Suffers from Fancy Play Syndrom
  • Respect: +685
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2015, 05:33:22 pm »
0

I've played one game with Champion and it was OK. I agree that the bigger problem is Warrior's ability to slow down other players' attempts to get Champion. 
Logged

clb

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 424
  • Respect: +182
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2015, 06:11:22 pm »
+2

Champion isn't worth it at all on boards where you have the time for and access to villages and there are no crippling attacks by the time you would get it. Those boards aren't uncommon, and there are also going to be plenty of boards where it's just mediocre.

The problem is that the Page line includes Warrior, which isn't automatically a crippling attack but I imagine can get to be pretty strong if the Champion player goes uncontested.

This.

Twice now someone tried to skip the Page line (admittedly, still Adventures novices), but that person's deck was gutted. It is surprisingly hard to build a deck that relies solely on $2- and $5+ cards. Sure, you could design a kingdom for it, but most boards need the $3-4.
The stacking of the attack really is painful sometimes. If I play a couple of Pages, then a Warrior (3 card trash sift), Warrior (4 card trash sift), Warrior (5), I've just gone through 12 of your cards and culled the backbone from your deck. Many trashers take a lot of work before they can outpace gaining, but if I can look through 10-12 cards of your deck every turn and trash all of the $3-4, not just one to three that I choose, then outpacing it gets rather difficult.
Logged

DrFlux

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 161
  • Respect: +68
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2015, 06:18:01 pm »
0

I quite like champion. Its fun, and if the board has no villages, or expensive villages, there is an interesting tension of when to start "overbuying" terminals. You want to set your self up to quickly transition to an engine, so a few cards with extra buys or gainers are great to grab a bunch of moats or whatnot just before you play your champion.

I agree though, warrior is unfun/swingy. If you warrior your opponents warrior early on, its really frustrating and back breaking in games where champion is critical. They also chain like crazy once you get a champion, so sometimes the first person to champion really wipes out the other players decks, but that feels a little more like a big dramatic deliberate part of the game. But if it happens early its more like "oops, look we just did the same thing but now you loose".

Overall both the traveler sets have been super fun. Chains of one person after the next playing treasure hunter are a little random but wacky and fun. 6 silver? OK...  Peasant was lots of fun too, and much better for engines.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8904
  • Respect: +9688
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2015, 06:23:18 pm »
+4

Champion is fine; why do people even complain about Champion? They can't all be the least game-changing card ever.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2227
  • Respect: +7136
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2015, 06:33:08 pm »
+1

I love this sort of craziness, as long as it doesn't show up in every single game.

It's also a decent Diadem enabler, and we didn't yet have too many of those.
Logged

LibraryAdventurer

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1475
  • Shuffle iT Username: LibraryAdventurer
  • Respect: +1173
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2015, 12:42:16 am »
0

I voted that I'm reserving judgement until I've played with it, but it's just hard to believe that it isn't overpowered when you look at it. And I was tempted to nerf it for playing IRL before playing with it. So I want to hear from people who've played at least a few games with it (and warrior because it also looks way OP).
(PS: I just got my copy of adventures, but I don't think I want to use the Page line in my first few games.)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 12:43:35 am by LibraryAdventurer »
Logged

mameluke

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 377
  • Respect: +441
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2015, 11:41:49 am »
0

I think there are lot of cards in Adventures that are late-game strong, designed to just end the game fairly quickly. This is one of them.
Logged

Voltaire

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 957
  • flavor text
  • Respect: +1097
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2015, 11:54:31 am »
0

I voted that I'm reserving judgement until I've played with it, but it's just hard to believe that it isn't overpowered when you look at it. And I was tempted to nerf it for playing IRL before playing with it. So I want to hear from people who've played at least a few games with it (and warrior because it also looks way OP).
(PS: I just got my copy of adventures, but I don't think I want to use the Page line in my first few games.)

"House ruling" a card before you've ever played with it, there is no freakin' way playtesting would let something like that out. "Power level" is different from "fun/interesting level", and I believe this thread is about the later.
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5843
  • Respect: +23531
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2015, 07:12:20 pm »
+14

I don't get complaints about Champion's infinite actions at all. It must just be a perceptual thing. There were people saying that a card could never cost $7, because that would break the game, as if 1) that card would be in every game from that point on, 2) you would always want it when you could have it, 3) when you did get to buy it the game would actually be worse. It's the same here. Page isn't in every game, in fact you almost never see it. When you do have it you don't just start the game with Champion in your deck. Once you have that Champion you don't just naturally have a deck full of terminals. You put work into getting Champion before the game ends, into having your deck function before you get it and yet having it pay off once you've got it.

And really. In Dominion, you can play one action on your turn, except, and then buy one card, except, and then discard everything, except, and draw a new hand of five, except. Treasures just make money, except, victory cards are dead, except. There's the cost in the corner, except, and the types on the bottom, except. You open with 3/4 or 4/3 or 2/5 or 5/2; the trash has cards that are out of the game now; there are 10 kingdom cards and 7 base cards; your deck starts out with 7 coppers and 3 estates.

Over and over I tried to find anything left that there was no exception for, and made the exception. You can't just make one game into every game, because you have a particular audience and there's what they like. There are no Dominion cards that require anagramming, for example. In the 90s I sometimes tried to stretch games that far, here now it turns into Scrabble, and well it's no good, you want to find a core to rally around, and then deviate from that while staying in the area. Anyway Champion fits neatly into the framework of Dominion, it is not anagramming. And I've played with it plenty and it's pretty sweet.

Now Warrior, I can understand complaining about how demoralizing it is to lose your Warrior to someone else's Warrior. It was not overlooked, it was discussed, it was a real concern. In the end most playtesters did not mind it and as you know I let it happen. Get more than one Page, that's my advice. Get cards that cycle through your deck faster, like Dungeon; Warrior can't kill your Hero, although it also hurts to not get to upgrade that shuffle. You may wish to avoid playing with Knights and Page/Peasant in the same game; every Knight attack is so terrifying.
Logged

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8904
  • Respect: +9688
    • View Profile
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2015, 07:47:47 pm »
+4

I don't get complaints about Champion's infinite actions at all.

Is this "I don't understand why people complain" or "I haven't heard/gotten any complaints about it"?
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

jsh357

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2577
  • Shuffle iT Username: jsh357
  • Respect: +4337
    • View Profile
    • JSH Gaming: Original games
Re: How do you feel about Champion?
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2015, 07:53:24 pm »
+1

Adam and I complained about it in testing.  Clearly Adam never warmed up to it, but I'm balmy.
Logged
Join the Dominion community Discord channel! Chat in text and voice; enter dumb tournaments; spy on top players!

https://discord.gg/2rDpJ4N
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.081 seconds with 22 queries.