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Author Topic: Messing with the Supply: Town Crier  (Read 3974 times)

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pacovf

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Messing with the Supply: Town Crier
« on: June 05, 2015, 08:31:29 pm »
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Quote
Town Crier: Action, 4$
+2$
The first time you buy a Kingdom card from the Supply this turn, move a copy of it to the top of another Kingdom Supply pile.

I've been thinking about the concept of moving cards from the Supply. Other iterations gave bonuses to all players for buying cards that are not on their pile, others moved cards to the bottom of the pile instead. This one seems to be simple enough and less oppressive than other versions. Thoughts?
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Messing with the Supply: Town Crier
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2015, 09:17:51 pm »
+1

Can't you say "the first time you buy a kingdom card"? Is there a time you would buy a kingdom card from not the supply, other than Black Market (which just wouldn't move anything)?
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pacovf

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Re: Messing with the Supply: Town Crier
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2015, 09:23:11 pm »
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Well, if I remove that line, Black Market anti-combos with Town Crier. This way, you can use BM after Town Crier and still get to move cards during your Buy phase.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Messing with the Supply: Town Crier
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2015, 10:54:40 pm »
+3

Well, if I remove that line, Black Market anti-combos with Town Crier. This way, you can use BM after Town Crier and still get to move cards during your Buy phase.

Eh? I mean, that's true, but I don't think this one interaction is worth making the card wordier for.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Messing with the Supply: Town Crier
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2015, 12:26:09 am »
+1

Can't you say "the first time you buy a kingdom card"? Is there a time you would buy a kingdom card from not the supply, other than Black Market (which just wouldn't move anything)?

Also, I don't think it's clear from the rules if the cards in the black market deck count as kingdom cards. I think a more reasonable interpretation is that a kingdom card is a card from a kingdom pile; not that a kingdom card is any card that could be used as a kingdom pile.
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pacovf

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Re: Messing with the Supply: Town Crier
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2015, 01:02:33 am »
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Well, as Gendo points out, this way the interaction also works unambiguously. It's actually mostly there to imply that the card you move is originally in the Supply, and not in your hand or whatever.

But yeah, it's not strictly necessary. Then again, it's not like the card was super wordy.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Messing with the Supply: Town Crier
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2015, 01:43:20 am »
+2

Does the timing of this work?  You buy the card, but before you gain it, you move it to another pile.  Then when you try to gain it, it's lost track of right?  The only way it works is if the copy you move is actually under the top card, but I'm not sure if you're "allowed" to make a card that does that.  I don't really have a suggested fix for that though.

I'm not really a fan of the idea, but I'm having trouble putting my finger on exactly why I don't like it.  I think maybe it's because it's hard to imagine what kind of deck you would really want it in.  Actually, I think the idea might work better as an event.  Something simple like "Move a kingdom card from one supply pile to another", and costs $2 probably?  That fixes the timing problem too.
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pacovf

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Re: Messing with the Supply: Town Crier
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2015, 02:41:52 am »
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Does the timing of this work?  You buy the card, but before you gain it, you move it to another pile.  Then when you try to gain it, it's lost track of right?  The only way it works is if the copy you move is actually under the top card, but I'm not sure if you're "allowed" to make a card that does that.  I don't really have a suggested fix for that though.

That's an interesting point, but I think we already have Talisman that works this way: with Talisman in play, when buying a ruin, you first gain a copy of it, and if the card below it is the same, you also gain that one (right?). Similarly with Farmland and trashing a 4$ card from your hand. So I would say that the ruling is that, when interacting with a card from the Supply, you can interact with any from the set of identically-named cards on top of the pile.

tl;dr you should be able to move a card and gain the one below (or viceversa). Otherwise, I could change the trigger to be on-gain, rather than on-buy.

Quote
I'm not really a fan of the idea, but I'm having trouble putting my finger on exactly why I don't like it.  I think maybe it's because it's hard to imagine what kind of deck you would really want it in.

Off the top of my head:
You would want it when the other player is following a different strategy than you, or simply when you want to mess up their buying order.
You also want it for pile control (you can empty piles twice as fast, and you can put cards on top of empty piles to make them non-empty again).

Quote
Actually, I think the idea might work better as an event.  Something simple like "Move a kingdom card from one supply pile to another", and costs $2 probably?  That fixes the timing problem too.

Mmm, maybe... Intuitively, unrestricted moving is just too strong, that's why my version does it conditionally on you buying a copy of the card, but that could be worked into the event. A similar idea would be to make it an on-gain or overpay effect of the card, instead of on-play, to limit the number of times that this effect takes place.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Messing with the Supply: Town Crier
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2015, 03:58:56 am »
+1

Does the timing of this work?  You buy the card, but before you gain it, you move it to another pile.  Then when you try to gain it, it's lost track of right?  The only way it works is if the copy you move is actually under the top card, but I'm not sure if you're "allowed" to make a card that does that.  I don't really have a suggested fix for that though.

That's an interesting point, but I think we already have Talisman that works this way: with Talisman in play, when buying a ruin, you first gain a copy of it, and if the card below it is the same, you also gain that one (right?). Similarly with Farmland and trashing a 4$ card from your hand. So I would say that the ruling is that, when interacting with a card from the Supply, you can interact with any from the set of identically-named cards on top of the pile.

tl;dr you should be able to move a card and gain the one below (or viceversa). Otherwise, I could change the trigger to be on-gain, rather than on-buy.

Yeah, you're right, Talisman is a good comparison.  Buying a card doesn't mean buying that exact copy of that card, it's more like putting in an order to gain a card with that name.  Which raises another question though: can I (thanks to Town Crier) buy a card from a pile, and then gain a card with the same name from a different pile?  For example, if there's a Scout pile and a Scout on top of the Navigator pile, could I use Talisman to buy Scout and gain Scout from the Scout pile, and then gain (from having bought) Scout from the Navigator pile?  I don't think we've ever had to deal with a situation like that before, so it's something to think about.

Off the top of my head:
You would want it when the other player is following a different strategy than you, or simply when you want to mess up their buying order.
You also want it for pile control (you can empty piles twice as fast, and you can put cards on top of empty piles to make them non-empty again).

Quote
Actually, I think the idea might work better as an event.  Something simple like "Move a kingdom card from one supply pile to another", and costs $2 probably?  That fixes the timing problem too.

Mmm, maybe... Intuitively, unrestricted moving is just too strong, that's why my version does it conditionally on you buying a copy of the card, but that could be worked into the event. A similar idea would be to make it an on-gain or overpay effect of the card, instead of on-play, to limit the number of times that this effect takes place.

I guess my problem is, it's almost entirely tactical and doesn't really fit in at all to your strategy planning.  Like, you wouldn't look at the board and say "this kind of deck wants Town Crier", you would just get one if you decided during the game that you could get an edge with it.  And maybe that's not an objectively bad thing, but it bothers me for some reason.  I think tactical ideas like that work better as Events or at least one-shots (I think Embargo would have been better as an event too).
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GeeJo

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Re: Messing with the Supply: Town Crier
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2015, 07:49:03 am »
+1

Seems like a powerful hoser of Alt-VP strategies.

"Oh, you wanted to go for Gardens? Well now you have to buy a Council Room, a Mining Village and a Steward before you can reach the first Gardens in the pile, because I'm going straight for Provinces. And good luck emptying three piles while I re-fill them."
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 07:52:24 am by GeeJo »
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pacovf

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Re: Messing with the Supply: Town Crier
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2015, 01:41:04 pm »
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Yeah, you're right, Talisman is a good comparison.  Buying a card doesn't mean buying that exact copy of that card, it's more like putting in an order to gain a card with that name.  Which raises another question though: can I (thanks to Town Crier) buy a card from a pile, and then gain a card with the same name from a different pile?  For example, if there's a Scout pile and a Scout on top of the Navigator pile, could I use Talisman to buy Scout and gain Scout from the Scout pile, and then gain (from having bought) Scout from the Navigator pile?  I don't think we've ever had to deal with a situation like that before, so it's something to think about.

All cards that instruct you to gain from the Supply don't specify from where in the Supply. So yes, I would rule you can.

If your question is whether you choose where exactly you gain the card from either when you buy it or only when you gain it, I don't know, but the difference seems mostly trivial. I would rule that you choose when you gain it, just to be less confusing.

Quote
I guess my problem is, it's almost entirely tactical and doesn't really fit in at all to your strategy planning.  Like, you wouldn't look at the board and say "this kind of deck wants Town Crier", you would just get one if you decided during the game that you could get an edge with it.  And maybe that's not an objectively bad thing, but it bothers me for some reason.  I think tactical ideas like that work better as Events or at least one-shots (I think Embargo would have been better as an event too).

Would you say the same thing about Militia? Town Crier is an attack card, even though it doesn't have the Attack type.

I am not so sure Embargo would have been better as an event, because it makes it faster, easier to "play", and unbounded. Town Crier is very similar to Embargo in that it can easily degenerate games, so I am a bit wary about an Event version.

Seems like a powerful hoser of Alt-VP strategies.

"Oh, you wanted to go for Gardens? Well now you have to buy a Council Room, a Mining Village and a Steward before you can reach the first Gardens in the pile, because I'm going straight for Provinces. And good luck emptying three piles while I re-fill them."

I don't think that a pseudo-attack card hosing a particular strategy is bad per se, but it might be unfun. Making the effect on-buy or on-gain might make it more palatable?

Quote
Auctioneer: Action, 5$
+2$.
Choose a Kingdom Supply pile. Buying cards from that pile does not cost a buy this turn.

When you gain this, move a Kingdom card from the Supply to the top of another Kingdom Supply pile.

(the top is a placeholder)
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GeeJo

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Re: Messing with the Supply: Town Crier
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2015, 10:49:03 am »
+1

I don't think that a pseudo-attack card hosing a particular strategy is bad per se, but it might be unfun. Making the effect on-buy or on-gain might make it more palatable?

It wasn't a criticism so much as just pointing out that that interaction does exist, and is probably one of its stronger applications when available. Cards and players are meant to interact with one another, after all.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 10:50:24 am by GeeJo »
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Accatitippi

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Re: Messing with the Supply: Town Crier
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2015, 11:31:49 am »
0

On these lines, what do you think about this?

Heavy rock - victory 5$
4 vp
---
When you buy this, instead of gaining it, put this on top of any Supply Pile of your choice and then trash one Heavy Rock from the Supply.

It follows the Event line of thought of being a one-shot.
The trashing is there to have the game progress even during Heavy Rock warz.
Also, you can put this on top of the Curses to stop those pesky Witches. (at the risk of breaking the game if you Stone the Coppers and then somehow trash all your payload.)
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