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Author Topic: Ill-Gotten Gains - bad for the game?  (Read 41356 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Re: Ill-Gotten Gains - bad for the game?
« Reply #75 on: January 27, 2012, 09:38:02 pm »
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Maybe it was this post by me that he was referring to?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1431.msg23933#msg23933

Quote
I've tried to find synergistic cards with Jack of all Trades on the http://councilroom.com/supply_win page.  Maybe I should work on making the data easier to copy to the forum?  But JoaT seems pretty damn resistant to helping anything.

Maybe Inn is the card that gains the most?  +3% chance of buying, win stats basically the same, an extra .07 inns bought per game.

Maybe JoaT tends to shorten games, most cards are purchased less often when its available.

But you're looking for something else there. You're trying to see if the presence of Jack makes certain cards more likely to be part of a winning strategy. The comment was about X+Jack+money being better than Jack+money. This kind of question is better answered by simulation, and the simulator says the following $5 cards (possibly among others -- all I did to make this list was take the default bots and add a jack or 2 and compare to the jack bot) X satisfy this:
bazaar, cartographer, council room, duke, embassy, explorer, festival, inn, lab, library, merchant ship, mountebank, rabble, royal seal, stables, stash, torturer, vault, venture, wharf, witch

That's a pretty long list, which suggests that Jack+money is a pretty poor strategy. This means that even in the presence of jack, you have some interesting decisions to make. If there are more than one of these cards around, which one (or two) do you go for? And this is just $5 cards. The lower cost cards may also influence the decision between the 5s just as in a game without jack.
I'm rather surprised Jester doesn't make the cut.
Well, if you're taking the existing bots, that's probably why - several of these cards are optimized play for that card, and they'd need to be re-optimized for reality with Jack. And several aren't optimized and just buy one of said card, and need to be re-optimized for reality with Jack.
Yeah, straight double Jack is darned strong, but there's lots of other stuff that adds to it - just, it doesn't add THAT much to it.

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Ill-Gotten Gains - bad for the game?
« Reply #76 on: February 01, 2012, 03:39:44 pm »
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I'm rather surprised Jester doesn't make the cut.
Well, if you're taking the existing bots, that's probably why - several of these cards are optimized play for that card, and they'd need to be re-optimized for reality with Jack. And several aren't optimized and just buy one of said card, and need to be re-optimized for reality with Jack.
Yeah, straight double Jack is darned strong, but there's lots of other stuff that adds to it - just, it doesn't add THAT much to it.
Well, the list isn't that authoritative, it's just to give an idea of how many $5 cards can work with Jack. I'm not sure about Jester. You can try to optimize it, but really it doesn't do anything exciting here. Most of the time, you're going to hit silver or copper, neither of which is going to change too much, so you're kind of just taking a terminal silver.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "it doesn't add THAT much". Most of these (completely unoptimized) bots are 10-20% favorites over double Jack.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Ill-Gotten Gains - bad for the game?
« Reply #77 on: February 01, 2012, 03:56:39 pm »
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I'm rather surprised Jester doesn't make the cut.
Well, if you're taking the existing bots, that's probably why - several of these cards are optimized play for that card, and they'd need to be re-optimized for reality with Jack. And several aren't optimized and just buy one of said card, and need to be re-optimized for reality with Jack.
Yeah, straight double Jack is darned strong, but there's lots of other stuff that adds to it - just, it doesn't add THAT much to it.
Well, the list isn't that authoritative, it's just to give an idea of how many $5 cards can work with Jack. I'm not sure about Jester. You can try to optimize it, but really it doesn't do anything exciting here. Most of the time, you're going to hit silver or copper, neither of which is going to change too much, so you're kind of just taking a terminal silver.
And I'm not sure what you mean by "it doesn't add THAT much". Most of these (completely unoptimized) bots are 10-20% favorites over double Jack.
10% favorite isn't much of a lead. If I win 55%-45%, you aren't actually going to notice it that often. Not to mention that this is actually smaller than 1st-turn advantage tends to be. But my bigger point is that they don't make near as much difference as even a little shuffle luck.

The idea with Jester is that giving copper is the one kind of thing Jack can't really deal with, giving curses can give you a nice lead in an endgame. Grabbing silver doesn't matter much but is still nice. Grabbing gold is simply excellent. Certainly I wouldn't want doubleJack+Jester. But iirc, singleJack is almost as good as doubleJack, and singleJack+Jester I would expect to be better. Shrug.

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Ill-Gotten Gains - bad for the game?
« Reply #78 on: February 01, 2012, 04:08:28 pm »
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I think there's actually a pretty big difference between a player who wins 45% of the time and one who wins 55% of the time. I don't think anyone is really interested in playing a strategy that only wins 40-45% of the time, which is what double jack is.
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