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[eHalcyon]

I actually mean, you all owe me like 500000 respect for all the easy respect I'm earning you folks in the majority by being your opponent in this argument where I'm outnumbered by numberish folk.

What I wouldn't give for another creative writing major to join this forum.

I earned a creative writing certificate in college, was the opinions editor for one campus newspaper and a columnist for another, and now write a lot as a lawyer.  (I even used to write a board game blog, a long time ago.)  So I write a lot!  Can't just dismiss my views as "numberish".

What style guide does the Bar, or ALA, or whatever the national lawyer league is called, enforce?

What style guide was enforced at your college?  Mine was MLA, which clearly requires periods and commas inside the quotation marks.  Were you purposefully getting lower grades in college just to stick your middle finger up at rules with which you disagree?

(On a side note, if you think lawyer writing is creative, you are crazy.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logical_quotation_on_Wikipedia#Some_American_.28and_other.29_journals_have_long_required_logical_quotation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logical_quotation_on_Wikipedia#Style_guides_are_in_flux.2C_and_even_American_ones_recommend_logical_quotation_for_precision

And of course lawyer writing is creative.  Legalese is full of conflict, plot twists and surprise endings!

[ashersky]

Also unless people "strenuously object", I will split this into another thread.  (It's almost RSP-worthy!)

This is definitely RSP now.  I'm the belittled minority (here) constantly being derided for believing in something many of you find illogical.

Sound familiar?

At least in RSP, those posts can't be upvoted for extra spite sauce.

[ashersky]

I actually mean, you all owe me like 500000 respect for all the easy respect I'm earning you folks in the majority by being your opponent in this argument where I'm outnumbered by numberish folk.

What I wouldn't give for another creative writing major to join this forum.

I earned a creative writing certificate in college, was the opinions editor for one campus newspaper and a columnist for another, and now write a lot as a lawyer.  (I even used to write a board game blog, a long time ago.)  So I write a lot!  Can't just dismiss my views as "numberish".

What style guide does the Bar, or ALA, or whatever the national lawyer league is called, enforce?

What style guide was enforced at your college?  Mine was MLA, which clearly requires periods and commas inside the quotation marks.  Were you purposefully getting lower grades in college just to stick your middle finger up at rules with which you disagree?

(On a side note, if you think lawyer writing is creative, you are crazy.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logical_quotation_on_Wikipedia#Some_American_.28and_other.29_journals_have_long_required_logical_quotation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logical_quotation_on_Wikipedia#Style_guides_are_in_flux.2C_and_even_American_ones_recommend_logical_quotation_for_precision

And of course lawyer writing is creative.  Legalese is full of conflict, plot twists and surprise endings!

The AP, MLA, and Chicago guides require the American style.  Those are definitely definitive, Important guides, even if you personally never have to work with them.

Robz, does, for example.

Edit, forgot link: http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2011/08/punctuating-around-quotation-marks.html

[eHalcyon]

It isn't the "American" style, and logical punctuation isn't "British" style.  They both get used in both regions.

That extra link is incorrect about logical style (unless they're talking about something separate called "British style") because you don't always place periods outside of quotation marks.  You just do what makes logical sense.

[Witherweaver]

"Logical" and "Typesetters'" are good labels.

[ashersky]

It isn't the "American" style, and logical punctuation isn't "British" style.  They both get used in both regions.

But they are.  I'm talking about their actual names, not where they are used. 

Basically, drop your quotation marks.

[liopoil]

It isn't the "American" style, and logical punctuation isn't "British" style.  They both get used in both regions.

Well, I'm taking a British Literature class, and while my teacher teaches MLA in general he also teaches to put the punctuation outside the quotation marks, and he specifically made fun of us Americans for being silly about this.

[ashersky]

Too me, it is logical to put the period and comma inside the quotation marks.  Does that mean I follow a logical style?

[ashersky]

It isn't the "American" style, and logical punctuation isn't "British" style.  They both get used in both regions.

Well, I'm taking a British Literature class, and while my teacher teaches MLA in general he also teaches to put the punctuation outside the quotation marks, and he specifically made fun of us Americans for being silly about this.

So the British guy uses the British style rule.  Huh.  Weird.

[eHalcyon]

Too me, it is logical to put the period and comma inside the quotation marks.  Does that mean I follow a logical style?

It means you have a poor understanding of what logic is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logical_quotation_on_Wikipedia#Proponents_of_typesetters.27_quotation_admit_it_makes_no_sense

[ashersky]

Too me, it is logical to put the period and comma inside the quotation marks.  Does that mean I follow a logical style?

It means you have a poor understanding of what logic is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logical_quotation_on_Wikipedia#Proponents_of_typesetters.27_quotation_admit_it_makes_no_sense

Or we have differing strict principles of validity.

You are making this into a God/no God argument, and it's clearly offensive.

[eHalcyon]

Too me, it is logical to put the period and comma inside the quotation marks.  Does that mean I follow a logical style?

It means you have a poor understanding of what logic is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logical_quotation_on_Wikipedia#Proponents_of_typesetters.27_quotation_admit_it_makes_no_sense

Or we have differing strict principles of validity.

You are making this into a God/no God argument, and it's clearly offensive.

So what is the logic behind putting things that are not part of a quotation inside of quotation marks?  It literally makes no logical sense to do so.

I don't see how this is a God/no God argument.  What does that even mean?  God is by definition beyond human logic.  The rules of grammar are not divine and subject to logic.

If you want to say "it is how it is [according to whatever style guide]", fine.  That's objectively true.  If you want to say "it is more aesthetically appealing to me", fine.  That's subjective.  But you can't say that modifying a quotation by including punctuation that wasn't originally there is logical.  That is objectively false.

[ashersky]

It's the God/no god argument because it's become you telling God doesn't exist because that's not logical.

I'm not modifying the quote by including "the period," I'm just using correct punctuation.

I wasn't quoting the phrase "the period" from anywhere, so I can it possibly be modifying it.  To say I am is false.  Tell me your logic there.

[liopoil]

It isn't the "American" style, and logical punctuation isn't "British" style.  They both get used in both regions.

Well, I'm taking a British Literature class, and while my teacher teaches MLA in general he also teaches to put the punctuation outside the quotation marks, and he specifically made fun of us Americans for being silly about this.

So the British guy uses the British style rule.  Huh.  Weird.

Right, I'm just saying that it seems there is a strong connection between location and preference.

[Witherweaver]

Too me, it is logical to put the period and comma inside the quotation marks.  Does that mean I follow a logical style?

No, it just means you're wrong.  This is very, very obvious.

[Witherweaver]

I mean, I can say it's logical to me that x^2+1 = 0 has real solutions, but I'm obviously wrong.  Thinking something makes sense does not make it logically consistent. 

[Voltaire]

ash, what's your argument beyond "tradition" or "argument from authority"? (Yes I know that sounds belittling but I can't think of a better way to phrase my question)

[GendoIkari]

So what about parentheses? I never know when punctuation should go inside or outside a closing parenthesis.

[ashersky]

I mean, I can say it's logical to me that x^2+1 = 0 has real solutions, but I'm obviously wrong.  Thinking something makes sense does not make it logically consistent.

It's not obvious to me.  Are you saying there's no way to solve for X in the mathematical universe?  I don't know that, nor do I see any relevance to punctuation.

[ashersky]

So what about parentheses? I never know when punctuation should go inside or outside a closing parenthesis.

If it's part of the parenthetical, inside.  Otherwise, out.

[ashersky]

ash, what's your argument beyond "tradition" or "argument from authority"? (Yes I know that sounds belittling but I can't think of a better way to phrase my question)

What's the counter?  People are screaming it's logical not to.  But no one can tell me why.  I've already shown it doesn't always result in a modified quote. 

To demand the period be moved outside the quotation marks feels like hipster contrarianism.

The rule is X, hence do X.  Sounds logical (and kind of like computer programming) to me.

[eHalcyon]

It's the God/no god argument because it's become you telling God doesn't exist because that's not logical.

I'm not modifying the quote by including "the period," I'm just using correct punctuation.

I wasn't quoting the phrase "the period" from anywhere, so I can it possibly be modifying it.  To say I am is false.  Tell me your logic there.

Again, God is beyond logic.  This is punctuation, not something supernatural.

Your argument falls apart when you use quotation marks for dialogue, or for quoting from another written piece.  Everything within the quotation marks is part of the quote (just like how everything within parentheses is part of that parenthetical phrase).  Also, I think you should have used a semi-colon there anyway.

Did you read the section I linked?  Here it is again.  It's written by somebody who is on your side, acknowledging that it's an illogical convention.  It addresses all of this.

[Witherweaver]

It's the God/no god argument because it's become you telling God doesn't exist because that's not logical.

I'm not modifying the quote by including "the period," I'm just using correct punctuation.

I wasn't quoting the phrase "the period" from anywhere, so I can it possibly be modifying it.  To say I am is false[/ i].  Tell me your logic there.

Your period should be inside your italics, obv. 

[eHalcyon]

ash, what's your argument beyond "tradition" or "argument from authority"? (Yes I know that sounds belittling but I can't think of a better way to phrase my question)

What's the counter?  People are screaming it's logical not to.  But no one can tell me why.  I've already shown it doesn't always result in a modified quote. 

Bolded for emphasis.  The point is that it often does.

[Witherweaver]

This is pretty straightforward.  "the period" refers to the string, "the period".  "the period," refers to the string "the period,".  They're different strings.

Your quote above talks about "the period," and says nothing of "the period".