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werothegreat

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Article: Coin of the Realm
« on: June 03, 2015, 11:37:54 am »
+16


It's a Treasure!  It's a Village!  It's Coin of the Realm!

This card is definitely a planning-ahead Village - if you've overloaded on terminals and suddenly think "crap, I need a Village", you'd be better off buying a Port.  This is certainly not the strongest card, and can be rather slow (like most Reserves), but can be quite powerful if used correctly.

What does it do?
It's a Copper that can be called later for +2 Actions.  It cannot (usually) be called on the same turn it's played, so it kind of feels like a Duration card, something like a lopsided Fishing Village.  Unlike a Duration, though, it waits on the Tavern mat until you really need it.  It's also one of the cheapest villages, sharing a cost with Hamlet; the only cheaper village is Necropolis, and that's not exactly a card you can spam.

How do I use it?

In general, Coin of the Realm's Reserve nature means that you'll never "waste" it as a Village - playing Village, then Smithy, only to draw a bunch of Treasures and Victory cards is not exactly optimal.  That Village has now be used for the shuffle, and so you've in a sense lost your ability to support one of the terminals in your deck until you reshuffle, which is why it can often be good to get a couple more Villages than your deck actually needs.  If that were a Coin of the Realm instead, you'd be able to hold onto it until you actually had a collision in your hand.  With CotR on your Tavern mat, you can play terminal draw with impunity, knowing you can support up to two more Actions if you draw any, and still being perfectly happy if you don't.  Without terminal draw, you can almost overload on terminals, since a single CotR can handle three terminals colliding in your hand - in this case, again, unlike with normal Villages, there's no chance of "wasting" CotR if you only draw one terminal.

To get into more detail, let's look at two cases: boards without other villages, and boards with them.

Coin of the Realm as the only village

Here, CotR should be one of your earliest purchases.  Be willing to spend $3 on it, though perhaps not at the expense of an opening Silver, unless you're aiming for $4 terminals instead of $5's.  You want CotRs on your Tavern mat as soon as possible, so that you can start calling them as soon as you start getting terminal collisions. 

It's at this point that we need to address CotR's major advantage, and major disadvantage:

Good: CotR gives 1 Action more than most other Villages, since it doesn't require an Action to get its effect.  Therefore two CotRs can support 5 terminals, whereas 2 Villages can only support 3.

Bad: Due to its slowness, in order to get any sort of reliability out of CotR, you need to stagger them, like Durations, which means you need to buy twice as many of them.  So, to support 5 terminals, you really should be buying 4 (which is how many Villages you'd be buying anyway).

So for an engine that draws itself every turn, you'll need to buy just as many CotRs as you'd buy Villages, so that advantage is nixed, but there are still two things in the card's favor:  1) You don't need to play next turn's CotR's until the end of this turn, and 2) It's still cheaper than most other Villages.  For a terminal-heavy deck that won't necessarily draw itself every turn, perhaps due to lack of trashing, you might not need to get as many CotRs; collision will happen less often, and you'll usually be able to reserve CotR before another one happens.

That first point is important, so let me reiterate - since CotRs are played at the end of your turn, and then hang out on your mat for your next turn, there's no uncertainty where you hope you draw your Village and terminal draw together; you're sure that you'll be able to play whatever terminals come up in your hand.

All in all, is an engine possible with CotR as the only Village?  Yes, but it can be a little finicky at times.

Coin of the Realm with other Villages

In these cases, CotR is often ignorable.  Getting $2 is not usually a happy turn, and you'd often rather pick up a drawing Action Village.  In these cases, if you get CotR at all, it will be as a supplement, something you pick up with an extra buy to help smooth out your engine.  When paired with other Villages, CotR kind of feels like Cartographer: not something that's really going to be essential to your strategy, but it certainly has a net positive effect on your deck if you happen to pick one up.  It can also add some reliability to your deck - as mentioned before, CotR doesn't have to worry about being drawn with your terminal draw card, as it's already there, on your mat, waiting to be called.  In these cases, picking up one or two CotRs can help ensure that your engine fires every turn.

What does it work well with?

CotR likes +Buy.  It's a perfect "sure, why not" purchase when you have $2 left to spend, and certainly helps your deck more than Pearl Diver.  The best version of this is terminal draw +Buy - Council Room, Margrave, Ranger - that way your CotRs can help support their play, and then you can pick up another draw card along with another CotR, or whatever other payload you feel like snagging.

Of course, we can't not mention the two cards that play Treasures during your Action phase - Black Market and Storyteller.  While I wouldn't go so far as to call either of these a "combo" with CotR, the synergy is certainly strong here.  Being able to play and call CotR on the same turn completely gets rid of the slowness disadvantage, and almost doubles the terminal capacity of your deck.

Conclusion

A solid card, both in its role and its price point, though it shines more if it doesn't have any Village competition.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 12:36:26 pm by werothegreat »
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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2015, 11:44:01 am »
+6

Also, I realize my last couple articles were not the best received, so I've tried to tone down the flowery writing, and tried not to make unfounded claims.  If you have constructive criticism, please give it!
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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 11:54:48 am »
+2

It might be worth mentioning that, in the absence of draw, Coin of the Realm can enable you to buy many more terminal Actions without fear of lining them up just right with villages. It's like a much more reliable Walled Village in this respect.
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AdamH

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 12:49:03 pm »
+13

Can I ask you a couple of questions?

1. How many games have you played with Coin in them?
1a. How many of them were engine games?
1b. How many of them had Coin as the only Village? How many had other Villages?
1c. How many of them had decent trashing? Slow trashing? No trashing?
1d. How many of them with Coin as the only Village had terminal payload cards that were the whole reason you were building your engine?

2. How many of these games do you think you played perfectly? Close to perfectly? Better than average? Did you go back and review your play to see what you could have done better?
2a. In how many of these games was your strategy mirrored? Uncontested?
2b. Did you win games where you feel you outplayed your opponent, specifically with Coin? And I'm not just talking about "I bought Coin, he didn't, I won" but "we both bought Coin, but I did it better because of XYZ, and I won because of that"

Many people read these forums and either don't post much, never post, or don't feel like they're "good enough" to critique articles. Many people will read articles and take them very seriously, down to the last point made, because there are several articles on these forums that deserve that kind of treatment. They were written by extremely good players who have played literally thousands of games, several hundred with the card they're writing about, and have deep, strategic insight as to how to get the most out of a particular card. I know this is a matter of personal preference, but I've just broken top 20 on the Iso leaderboard and I've only ever written one article because I don't feel like I'm good enough at the game to write any others. Again, I just said this but that is my personal preference and I understand if people disagree.

I've skimmed your article. I have several critiques and can quote several things you've said in the article that I flat-out disagree with and/or think are misleading, but I'm at work right now so I can't realistically type that out in a thoughtful, constructive way until tonight at the earliest (and it may be even longer, I can't promise that I'll have it done by the end of the weekend, TBH, though if you want me to do it I will make sure it happens).

But something I think you could ask yourself that might improve the general perception of your articles goes something like this: Say there's an article on Village. Maybe that doesn't exist but there's probably enough material on these forums that people who read enough understand what a Village is and how to use it in whatever kind of deck. If I write an article on Wandering Minstrel, I shouldn't be writing about how Villages work, obvs (and you didn't exactly do that here, which is good), but rather I should be writing about how WM distinguishes itself from other Villages. Sure you can make statements about its effects, but anyone that plays 2 games with WM will figure that out on their own if they already know what a Village is.

Something much more helpful would be to point out the types of decks that Wandering Minstrel makes viable that other Villages don't, and the different ways you build those decks which account for the shortcomings of WM (in this example, if Treasure is your payload you may build more or prefer more Silvers over fewer Golds or something when you might not have done that with other Villages -- clearly I haven't written an article on WM, and please don't take this as solid Dominion advice, it's just an example). If a Village deserves an article, these are the kinds of insights that are why that Village deserves an article. If the content of your article is "here's a Village, it's slightly different, so here are some top-level ways you can do things differently because of that" then Joe Schmoe who doesn't post but reads articles had already figured that out just by reading the card.

So what can you ask yourself? What strategic insights am I providing to Joe Schmoe that he didn't already know? What is the wisdom I gained from hundreds of games, where I'm beating my opponents because I'm outplaying them with this card, and I can finally put my finger on it, put it into an article, and communicate that to someone to actually improve their game?

If the answer to that question is compelling, you're going to have an article that is much more respected.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 12:54:07 pm by AdamH »
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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 02:54:59 pm »
0

Personally, I would be interested in the comparison with Fishing Village. The latter seems to be considered as one of the best villages, and CotR looks quite similar to me, but the a priori consensus seems to be that you would rather have another village instead.

Another tricky aspect would be whether it is ever a good decision to not play a CotR right before a shuffle, to prevent your total buying power from getting too low (because you've trashed down or whatever).


Bad: Due to its slowness, in order to get any sort of reliability out of CotR, you need to stagger them, like Durations, which means you need to buy twice as many of them.  So, to support 5 terminals, you really should be buying 4 (which is how many Villages you'd be buying anyway).

Probably nitpicking, but this isn't completely true. You only need to overbuy as many CotRs as the average number of them that you play each turn (or rather, the average number of them that are on your Tavern or on your hand when you shuffle). The distinction can be important if you aren't trying to build a deck that draws itself.
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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2015, 03:06:30 pm »
+4

I am not a Top 20 player, and I am not very experienced with CotR, thus, my remarks might not satisfy AdamH's requirements - however,I just don't want to let this article uncommented:

Disagreements

First thing, most notably: I do want at least one CotR, even if I prefer another village most of the time! Reliability is just so, so important, if your engine is supposed to get three colonies next turn, and you fear a dead move starting with three Catacombs and two Conspirators.
Second, your comparison to village strikes me in several aspects. E.g., you should highlight more precisely that CotR doesn't draw. Also, before drawing your deck every turn, it can indeed produce more actions than village. Given these things, another comparison seems more logic to me:

Comparison to fishing village

Fishing village is the most similar card, given that both net exceptional +2 actions, both cards don't draw,  both suffer from delayed benefit, and both provide +1$ when played. The differences are:
- fishing villages nets +action now and +action in the next turn; CotR both actions in a future turn you choose.
- fishing village produces +1$ the next turn
- One is an action, one is a treasure, i.e., CotR doesn't synergize with Draw-to-X like fishing village does

Maybe a player who knows how strong fishing village is, can now identify the strength of CotR: It has a similar power in respect to providing actions (delayed, but more reliable), but if the monies are important, Fishing Village is obviously better here.

Works well with

Opponents pillage can destroy your turn by removing your only village, and CotR can be your protection.
Stonemason makes it more likely to gain multiple terminals in one turn.
Finally, I am really missing some remarks about  megaturns! Maybe an expert can elaborate on this, but I can imagine that CotR is key to make Horn of Plenty, Bridge, Goons ... shine more than they did before due to the option to use all the actions right when you need it.
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jomini

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2015, 10:06:24 pm »
+2

A couple of other things:
1. Cotr is notable among villages that you cannot gain & use it the same turn (barring the two exceptions already mentioned). This can be big when you are gaining cards in the action phase. Say I have an efficient engine with just enough villages to draw everything and play 3 Goons. I might buy a 4th Goons if I expect that I can Iw a village, draw it and then use it to play the 4th Goons. Cotr lags a turn so you need to adjust your buy timing. One place this becomes particularly obvious is with Transmogrify - with Cotr as the only village, you cannot just burn estates or silvers to gain the villages you need at turn start.
2. Cotr being a treasure really changes what works as an engine. It gums up Lib, Wt, and Jack draw and can have serious problems with being in hand in sufficient quantity with Menage, Minion, and Hunting party. Tr, Kc, Prssn, and Royal Carriage are all dead with just Cotr so you need to be more careful with how many you have to avoid dead starting hands. Cotr doesn't activate Conspirators. On the other hand it makes Taxman, Mine, Mint, and Hero a lot better at engine building; Golem might even get significantly better as you can leave the Cotr until you need to play multiple terminal Golems. A lucky Thief can be absolutely brutal at disrupting an engine (low odds of working, but when it kills two terminals and lets you have more engine potential, particularly harsh if the pile is already empty). These sorts of interaction are very counterintuitive if you just play this like a normal village.
3. You can set up mega-ish turns in really crappy decks that you otherwise cannot. For example, with Bridge and Haven can allow you stockpile lots of Cotr and wait until Haven lets you get enough Bridges to rock and roll. Haven/Bridge/Trasher/Cotr can set up a pretty nice turn without any real draw.
4. It works very well with discard for benefit. Storeroom and Cellar can both freely cycle Cotr to draw back later (unlike say Festival or Hamlet). Other discard for benefits like Artificer or Horse traders also can benefit.
5. Cotr is very good with short hands (Outpost, Militia, etc.) you can play it on a short hand to stack up CotR until you have draw ... or you can discard it to play your better cards. You can start doubling up on turns a lot sooner with Opost as any 3 card hand with terminal draw will tend to become a full hand.

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werothegreat

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2015, 10:18:38 pm »
+2

Okay, who wants to play some Skype CotR games with me?
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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2015, 11:28:29 am »
+1

Okay, who wants to play some Skype CotR games with me?

I would, but it seems you're not on Skype. :p

That, and I have to go to college. D:
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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2015, 11:48:22 am »
0

I'd like to play some more Skype games, but I won't be timely in this case. I won't have a chance until at least Sunday, probably Monday.

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2015, 12:02:06 pm »
+1

Okay, who wants to play some Skype CotR games with me?

I would, but it seems you're not on Skype. :p

That, and I have to go to college. D:

I only turn on Skype when I need it on.  :P
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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2015, 11:49:00 am »
+10

I've skimmed your article. I have several critiques and can quote several things you've said in the article that I flat-out disagree with and/or think are misleading, but I'm at work right now so I can't realistically type that out in a thoughtful, constructive way until tonight at the earliest (and it may be even longer, I can't promise that I'll have it done by the end of the weekend, TBH, though if you want me to do it I will make sure it happens).

I said I would do this. Sorry for the delay, I was off-the-grid this weekend and it turns out I'm going to continue to be very busy until I get married in July. But hey here it is!



How do I use it?

In general, Coin of the Realm's Reserve nature means that you'll never "waste" it as a Village - playing Village, then Smithy, only to draw a bunch of Treasures and Victory cards is not exactly optimal.  That Village has now be used for the shuffle, and so you've in a sense lost your ability to support one of the terminals in your deck until you reshuffle, which is why it can often be good to get a couple more Villages than your deck actually needs.  If that were a Coin of the Realm instead, you'd be able to hold onto it until you actually had a collision in your hand.  With CotR on your Tavern mat, you can play terminal draw with impunity, knowing you can support up to two more Actions if you draw any, and still being perfectly happy if you don't.  Without terminal draw, you can almost overload on terminals, since a single CotR can handle three terminals colliding in your hand - in this case, again, unlike with normal Villages, there's no chance of "wasting" CotR if you only draw one terminal.

So there's a great opportunity here that I think you're missing the chance to talk about. This deck you describe, where you have enough Villages and Actions to play that you're worried about Terminal draw drawing things dead. If you were using some other Village besides Coin, the deck you're describing is actually pretty bad. Why would you want enough actions in your deck that you want to play multiples in a turn if your deck can't be one that's trim enough to actually draw these actions together with your villages?

And you touch on this, Coin is special here, you get to use its ability and it looks really great, but before Adventures, this kind of deck was rarely viable. Now all of a sudden it could work! Talk about this deck some more! How do you build it? When do you get Coins? How does trashing interact with it? How do you prioritize draw? You should mention that +Buy is super-important for this. What kind of payload can you have to justify building this kind of deck vs. something else, and how has that payload changed versus using just a regular Village in this deck? These are the questions I want answered in this article.

And these are extremely difficult questions to answer. If you go ahead and assert answers for them, I could basically challenge them, no matter what they are. I'd want to see examples and discuss them -- this is a long process that's made much more difficult by the fact that we can't play Adventures online right now.

To get into more detail, let's look at two cases: boards without other villages, and boards with them.

Coin of the Realm as the only village

Here, CotR should be one of your earliest purchases.  Be willing to spend $3 on it, though perhaps not at the expense of an opening Silver, unless you're aiming for $4 terminals instead of $5's.  You want CotRs on your Tavern mat as soon as possible, so that you can start calling them as soon as you start getting terminal collisions.

That seems a little strong to me, and probably too simple. I realize that there are tons of different situations out there, and the strategy for them is so varied. It depends so much on trashing, right? If I'm running a deck I can draw every turn and I'm trying to maximize my payload, if that payload involves playing terminals, I have to pick up Coin one turn before I'd normally pick up a Village. I also have to draw it, and pick up another one for the following turn. But this time I can get a lot of terminals. So yeah in this case sometimes you want Coin before your terminals. But what if you aren't drawing your deck? Now you're talking about getting them a whole shuffle earlier. That's complicated too. There's a whole world of complexity and engine-building here that depends so heavily on the board and lots of other things that it's really really hard to talk about.

So what can you say? Well you can say you probably want it a shuffle earlier than most other Villages you'd buy, but I think you have to qualify that advice by saying that if you're shuffling every turn, the decisions get much more complicated than that.

It's at this point that we need to address CotR's major advantage, and major disadvantage:

Good: CotR gives 1 Action more than most other Villages, since it doesn't require an Action to get its effect.  Therefore two CotRs can support 5 terminals, whereas 2 Villages can only support 3.

Bad: Due to its slowness, in order to get any sort of reliability out of CotR, you need to stagger them, like Durations, which means you need to buy twice as many of them.  So, to support 5 terminals, you really should be buying 4 (which is how many Villages you'd be buying anyway).

...

All in all, is an engine possible with CotR as the only Village?  Yes, but it can be a little finicky at times.

I really don't think the "bad" part is actually bad. It's just different. There are a couple of words you use here that I think you should be careful about. "Reliability" is sort of the thing that sets Coin apart from other villages -- it's there when you need it. But when Coin is the only village, I don't think that applies so much. I think you want to use a more descriptive word here, or maybe some more descriptive words.

Adventures brought on several new Durations or things that feel like Durations. And the big difference between these new things and the old Durations is that they are asymmetrical. Yeah sure you played Merchant Ship and got $2 on each turn, but you only had to play it on one turn, so that was already asymmetrical, but these new things are even more so. One turn you have to draw and play a Copper, which is really bad. The other turn you get two free Actions out of nowhere, that's super good! You're talking about getting multiple Coins to smooth this out -- to even out the asymmetry for more consistency. So maybe "consistent" or "regular" or "smooth" are good words.

And sometimes you don't want this or you can't have it. Getting an even number of Coins is good for this (which you should totally mention) but Coin (and other Adventures cards) can cause you to build decks that have a certain type of "rhythm." You like coining terms, maybe you can run with this one (see what I did there? :P ) -- my deck does better this turn, but it won't do as well next turn because I'll only have two Coins on my mat. This is yet another archetype of deck that Coin makes possible on a very fundamental level. Again, very difficult to talk about but it's there and that's what people who read this article want to read about.

Coin of the Realm with other Villages

In these cases, CotR is often ignorable.  Getting $2 is not usually a happy turn, and you'd often rather pick up a drawing Action Village.  In these cases, if you get CotR at all, it will be as a supplement, something you pick up with an extra buy to help smooth out your engine.  When paired with other Villages, CotR kind of feels like Cartographer: not something that's really going to be essential to your strategy, but it certainly has a net positive effect on your deck if you happen to pick one up.  It can also add some reliability to your deck - as mentioned before, CotR doesn't have to worry about being drawn with your terminal draw card, as it's already there, on your mat, waiting to be called.  In these cases, picking up one or two CotRs can help ensure that your engine fires every turn.

You proceed to talk all about when you want Coin after you say it's ignorable. This means Coin isn't ignorable. I think you should just begin this paragraph with "it will be as a supplement" -- Coin is still really good in these decks.

What does it work well with?

CotR likes +Buy.  It's a perfect "sure, why not" purchase when you have $2 left to spend, and certainly helps your deck more than Pearl Diver.  The best version of this is terminal draw +Buy - Council Room, Margrave, Ranger - that way your CotRs can help support their play, and then you can pick up another draw card along with another CotR, or whatever other payload you feel like snagging.

One of the best parts of the article. I really like this part, it's pretty close to spot-on (I don't think Ranger is worth mentioning here, but that's a minor gripe). You mention in several parts of the article that Coin doesn't draw a card and yeah that's a mark against it. But what that means is that strong terminal draw is something that works very well with Coin.

You really need to emphasize that here, because that's a fundamental way that you change the way you build your deck based on Coin's uniqueness -- you prioritize strong draw. Most of the time you aren't going to get strong draw and +Buy in the same package, so how do you balance the two things? What's more important? How do I decide? Similar to strong draw is trashing, but that doesn't get mentioned at all here. This is what people reading this article really want to read. (Man, I say that a lot, and it's the really hard questions I say that about. Writing good articles is hard!)

Of course, we can't not mention the two cards that play Treasures during your Action phase - Black Market and Storyteller.  While I wouldn't go so far as to call either of these a "combo" with CotR, the synergy is certainly strong here.  Being able to play and call CotR on the same turn completely gets rid of the slowness disadvantage, and almost doubles the terminal capacity of your deck.

This seems really pipe-dreamy. I'm having trouble seeing a Black Market deck make this work, though Storyteller seems worth talking about in a little more detail. Since you're doing this to add terminal space, Storyteller's non-terminal-ness is really great here, and draw is especially important for this as well since neither Black Market nor Coin draw cards, and you need to draw you deck some other way (without playing terminals, or else you're just asking for tons of dud hands) to actually make this work.

Conclusion

A solid card, both in its role and its price point, though it shines more if it doesn't have any Village competition.

If I want people to take away something short from this article, it's that Coin is best with strong draw and  +Buy. If I want people to take away deep strategic insights from this article, it's the different ways I build and play my deck based on which of these components (plus trashing and perhaps other villages) are available or not available. With Coin, you have a lot of these things to talk about because it has such a unique effect, but there's not a lot of that here (as I pointed out above).

And if you asked me to help you provide that insight, I hate to be unhelpful here, but I don't feel like I understand it well enough to speak authoritatively about it. TBH I don't think anyone is yet, there's a lot of unexplored strategic space around Coin that deserves to be talked about in a strategy article.

(begin small tangent)

When I teach people Dominion, and even when I was learning it myself, I aim to get them to be able to look at a board and figure out the best deck to build by seeing what's there and not there, but by also seeing how the cards work together. Each card has its own place in certain types of decks, so one thing I recommend to people is that they read all of the cards and figure out when they would want that card (why is that card good? Let's call this Level 1 of understanding.). They should also be able to tell me when that card is going to be the-star-of-the-show-amazeballs, which requires a different level of strategic insight (Level 2). I feel like this article right now accomplishes that first goal -- so if someone learning the game was reading Coin's card text, they should be able to write this article.

Better would be if they could do that second part, and I think if you answer all of the questions I didn't label as "really hard" up there, this article could potentially get there. It wouldn't be the epic article of the ages that lives on forever that people remember you for, but if all of the information inside was correct, it could be helpful to beginning and newer players. TBH, I think that's the best any Coin article can be right now because it's too early.

What is the wisdom I gained from hundreds of games, where I'm beating my opponents because I'm outplaying them with this card, and I can finally put my finger on it, put it into an article, and communicate that to someone to actually improve their game?

If the answer to that question is compelling, you're going to have an article that is much more respected.

For reference, this thing I said before is kind of like Level 3 -- I personally wouldn't write an article about anything unless I felt I could write a Level 3 article, which is why I've only attempted to write one serious article, but that's just me.

I have a lot of respect for your enthusiasm and the time you put in to improve this community. I think a lot of the reasons your articles haven't been as popular is because there isn't much of an attempt to get much past Level 1. If I see a new article thread here, I get really excited because I think maybe I'm about to see a Level 3 article, so Level 1 can be a little bit of a disappointment. Sure you can't write Level 3 articles about every card or concept, but what level does it become worth it to write an article?

Anyways, I hope I've helped. I'll do my best to follow up on this if there's anything I've said that's unclear.
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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2015, 01:18:25 pm »
+3

Thanks very much!  I'm definitely going to return to and revamp this article, but I think my immediate focus is finishing the sequel to my novel, which only has a few chapters left.  Then comes editing.  Yay.
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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2015, 10:49:04 pm »
0

Wero and I played the "First Game" board tonight with Village substituted for Coin of the Realm.

Here is a log I created of the game:
Code: [Select]

Deadlock39's Turn 1:
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 buys Mine
Deadlock39 gains Mine

werothegreat's Turn 1:
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat buys Coin of the Realm
werothegreat gains Coin of the Realm

Deadlock39's Turn 2:
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 buys Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 gains Coin of the Realm

werothegreat's Turn 2:
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat buys Remodel
werothegreat gains Remodel

Deadlock39's Turn 3:
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 buys Remodel
Deadlock39 gains Remodel

werothegreat's Turn 3:
werothegreat plays Remodel
werothegreat trashes Copper
werothegreat gains Coin of the Realm
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat buys Woodcutter
werothegreat gains Woodcutter

Deadlock39's Turn 4:
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 buys Workshop
Deadlock39 gains Workshop

werothegreat's Turn 4:
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Coin of the Realm
werothegreat buys Woodcutter
werothegreat gains Woodcutter

Deadlock39's Turn 5:
Deadlock39 plays Workshop
Deadlock39 gains Smithy
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Mine
Deadlock39 trashes Copper
Deadlock39 gains Coin of the Realm

werothegreat's Turn 5:
werothegreat plays Woodcutter
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat buys Smithy
werothegreat gains Smithy

Deadlock39's Turn 6:
Deadlock39 plays Remodel
Deadlock39 trashes Estate
Deadlock39 gains Smithy
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 buys Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 gains Coin of the Realm

werothegreat's Turn 6:
werothegreat plays Remodel
werothegreat trashes Copper
werothegreat gains Moat
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Coin of the Realm
werothegreat buys Coin of the Realm
werothegreat gains Coin of the Realm

Deadlock39's Turn 7:
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 buys Market
Deadlock39 gains Market

werothegreat's Turn 7:
werothegreat plays Woodcutter
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat buys Cellar
werothegreat gains Cellar

Deadlock39's Turn 8:
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Remodel
Deadlock39 trashes Estate
Deadlock39 gains Smithy
Deadlock39 plays Mine
Deadlock39 trashes Copper
Deadlock39 gains Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 buys Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 gains Coin of the Realm

werothegreat's Turn 8:
werothegreat plays Woodcutter
werothegreat calls Coin of the Realm
werothegreat plays Remodel
werothegreat trashes Copper
werothegreat gains Coin of the Realm
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Coin of the Realm
werothegreat buys Smithy
werothegreat gains Smithy

Deadlock39's Turn 9:
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 plays Remodel
Deadlock39 trashes Estate
Deadlock39 gains Smithy
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 buys Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 gains Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 buys Smithy
Deadlock39 gains Smithy

werothegreat's Turn 9:
werothegreat plays Smithy
werothegreat calls Coin of the Realm
werothegreat plays Smithy
werothegreat plays Moat
werothegreat calls Coin of the Realm
werothegreat plays Cellar
werothegreat discards 2 cards
werothegreat draws 2 cards
werothegreat plays Remodel
werothegreat trashes Estate
werothegreat gains Milita
werothegreat plays Woodcutter
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Coin of the Realm
werothegreat plays Coin of the Realm
werothegreat buys Mine
werothegreat gains Mine

Deadlock39's Turn 10:
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 plays Workshop
Deadlock39 gains Smithy
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Remodel
Deadlock39 trashes Mine
Deadlock39 gains Market
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 buys Market
Deadlock39 gains Market
Deadlock39 buys Milita
Deadlock39 gains Milita

werothegreat's Turn 10:
werothegreat plays Woodcutter
werothegreat calls Coin of the Realm
werothegreat plays Woodcutter
werothegreat plays Coin of the Realm
werothegreat plays Coin of the Realm
werothegreat buys Market
werothegreat gains Market

Deadlock39's Turn 11:
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 plays Remodel
Deadlock39 trashes Copper
Deadlock39 gains Cellar
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Milita
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 buys Market
Deadlock39 gains Market
Deadlock39 buys Market
Deadlock39 gains Market

werothegreat's Turn 11:
werothegreat plays Remodel
werothegreat trashes Estate
werothegreat gains Smithy

Deadlock39's Turn 12:
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Remodel
Deadlock39 trashes Workshop
Deadlock39 gains Market
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Milita
werothegreat reveals Moat
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 buys Province
Deadlock39 gains Province
Deadlock39 buys Market
Deadlock39 gains Market

werothegreat's Turn 12:
werothegreat plays Smithy
werothegreat calls Coin of the Realm
werothegreat plays Smithy
werothegreat plays Moat
werothegreat calls Coin of the Realm
werothegreat plays Smithy
werothegreat plays Market
werothegreat plays Remodel
werothegreat trashes Woodcutter
werothegreat gains Market
werothegreat calls Coin of the Realm
werothegreat plays Cellar
werothegreat discards Curse
werothegreat draws 1 card
werothegreat plays Milita
Deadlock39 discards 2 cards
werothegreat plays Mine
werothegreat trashes Copper
werothegreat gains Silver
werothegreat puts Silver into his hand
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Copper
werothegreat plays Silver
werothegreat plays Coin of the Realm
werothegreat buys Province
werothegreat gains Province

Deadlock39's Turn 13:
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Market
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 plays Remodel
Deadlock39 trashes Cellar
Deadlock39 gains Smithy
Deadlock39 calls Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Milita
Deadlock39 plays Smithy
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Coin of the Realm
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 plays Copper
Deadlock39 buys Market
Deadlock39 gains Market
Deadlock39 buys Province
Deadlock39 gains Province
Deadlock39 buys Estate
Deadlock39 gains Estate

I'm too tired to try to analyze it too much at the moment, but let us know when where and how we misplayed it.  ;)

Limetime

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2015, 09:02:03 am »
+4

Disclaimer: I am not claiming to be an expert on the coin of the realm. I will try to give incite on things it works well with.
Coin of the realm is a card that in an engine you almost always want one or two on your tavern mat. Coin boosts your early economy as well as provide a strong village later in the game.
Things it works well with.
  • Terminal draw especially cultist chains
  • +buy
  • Big decks
  • 5/2
It works well with cultist chains because in most cultist game you will often not have a village in your hand and you will probably still want to play some key actions at the end of your cultists chain. It works well with + buy because you can pick up it up with another engine component. It works well in big decks because in big decks you might not have a village in hand. I think that it's need to be staggered is negated by it's cheapness.
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markusin

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2015, 01:12:05 pm »
+5

Disclaimer: I am not claiming to be an expert on the coin of the realm. I will try to give incite on things it works well with.
Coin of the realm is a card that in an engine you almost always want one or two on your tavern mat. Coin boosts your early economy as well as provide a strong village later in the game.
Things it works well with.
  • Terminal draw especially cultist chains
  • +buy
  • Big decks
  • 5/2
It works well with cultist chains because in most cultist game you will often not have a village in your hand and you will probably still want to play some key actions at the end of your cultists chain. It works well with + buy because you can pick up it up with another engine component. It works well in big decks because in big decks you might not have a village in hand. I think that it's need to be staggered is negated by it's cheapness.
Worth emphasizing that another reason CotR is good with big draw cards is because the coin itself can be drawn and played easily with Terminal Draw. So if you're short on actions during a turn, it may be worth playing terminal draw as the last action just so you can set up CotR on the mat for next turn. In fact, it seems vital to me to do this because you need to play CotR as a treasure on a previous turn before you can use it for actions.

You wouldn't really want villages for a BM-ish Embassy deck, but you especially want CotR in such a deck. It seems to me like a deck relying on CotR as the main source of actions will crumble without good sifting or trashing because you need to consistently get the card in play and you really want to line up multiple terminals and get the full benefit of the +2 actions.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2015, 01:28:42 pm »
+4

Coin boosts your early economy

Gonna disagree with this part.  It's a Copper, which hurts your economy more than it helps. 
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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2015, 01:35:10 pm »
+3

Coin boosts your early economy

Gonna disagree with this part.  It's a Copper, which hurts your economy more than it helps.
Really Early like when you have 3 estates
I might not be correct but whatever
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 01:37:40 pm by Limetime »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2015, 01:40:31 pm »
0

Coin boosts your early economy

Gonna disagree with this part.  It's a Copper, which hurts your economy more than it helps.
Really Early like when you have 3 estates
I might not be correct but whatever

Even then, if economy is the thing you care about, you're better off buying nothing at all.  The Copper on play should be thought of more as a penalty, not a bonus.
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Limetime

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2015, 01:47:34 pm »
0

Coin boosts your early economy

Gonna disagree with this part.  It's a Copper, which hurts your economy more than it helps.
Really Early like when you have 3 estates
I might not be correct but whatever

Even then, if economy is the thing you care about, you're better off buying nothing at all.  The Copper on play should be thought of more as a penalty, not a bonus.
But early on it boosts economy and then it disappears
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eHalcyon

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2015, 01:53:36 pm »
+3

Coin boosts your early economy

Gonna disagree with this part.  It's a Copper, which hurts your economy more than it helps.
Really Early like when you have 3 estates
I might not be correct but whatever

Even then, if economy is the thing you care about, you're better off buying nothing at all.  The Copper on play should be thought of more as a penalty, not a bonus.
But early on it boosts economy and then it disappears

Only on a 5/2 opening (otherwise, you also should consider Silver instead) where your 5 buy doesn't help economy.  Most of the time, the Copper is hurting your economy.  You might buy it anyway because you want the +actions ready asap, buy the Copper on play is lowering money density, not boosting it.

Edit: actually, I take it back.  It does increase coin density by a bit in 5/2 if the $5 is only, say, +$2.  But the boost is kind of inconsequential, and calling it a boost is pretty misleading overall.  I just think it would be more helpful to explain it as the penalty it is from the start.  But you're right, it is technically a boost at the very start, in the same way that a normal Copper is. :P
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 02:01:53 pm by eHalcyon »
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Limetime

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2015, 02:55:59 pm »
+2

Coin boosts your early economy

Gonna disagree with this part.  It's a Copper, which hurts your economy more than it helps.
Really Early like when you have 3 estates
I might not be correct but whatever

Even then, if economy is the thing you care about, you're better off buying nothing at all.  The Copper on play should be thought of more as a penalty, not a bonus.
But early on it boosts economy and then it disappears

Only on a 5/2 opening (otherwise, you also should consider Silver instead) where your 5 buy doesn't help economy.  Most of the time, the Copper is hurting your economy.  You might buy it anyway because you want the +actions ready asap, buy the Copper on play is lowering money density, not boosting it.

Edit: actually, I take it back.  It does increase coin density by a bit in 5/2 if the $5 is only, say, +$2.  But the boost is kind of inconsequential, and calling it a boost is pretty misleading overall.  I just think it would be more helpful to explain it as the penalty it is from the start.  But you're right, it is technically a boost at the very start, in the same way that a normal Copper is. :P
But the main reason you bought coin of the realm is not to boost your economy so all this argument is moot.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2015, 05:31:49 pm »
+2

But the main reason you bought coin of the realm is not to boost your economy so all this argument is moot.

That's my point though.  If the goal is to write an article, the "boost" shouldn't be called a boost at all.  The reason you buy CotR is to get flexible +actions, and the fact that it's Copper on play is a penalty you need to consider.  Calling it an economic boost isn't helpful.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2015, 06:23:31 pm »
0

Coin of the realm is close to being (minus the interesting parts) and action that is

+3 actions
+$1

Whether you call that extra $1 an economic booost or not depends on whether you're comparing it to hamlet or to silver. Most of you seem to compare it to silver because it's a treasure, but others are comparing it to villages and seeing that it does help you get to $5 more often than Necropolis. Surely just because moat is not a good card doesn't mean masquerade's card draw is a penalty just because it's worse compared to getting a smithy. In fact, I think I've read an article here saying that masquerade is a great trasher precisely because of the economic boost it gives alongside it's trashing power.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2015, 06:58:39 pm »
0

Coin of the realm is close to being (minus the interesting parts) and action that is

+3 actions
+$1

Whether you call that extra $1 an economic booost or not depends on whether you're comparing it to hamlet or to silver. Most of you seem to compare it to silver because it's a treasure, but others are comparing it to villages and seeing that it does help you get to $5 more often than Necropolis. Surely just because moat is not a good card doesn't mean masquerade's card draw is a penalty just because it's worse compared to getting a smithy. In fact, I think I've read an article here saying that masquerade is a great trasher precisely because of the economic boost it gives alongside it's trashing power.

I'm not comparing to Silver in particular.  It's a general statement.  In an article about Copper, I would not say that it provides an early economic boost even though it may be technically true.  I wouldn't say your hypothetical card above provides an economic boost either.  If you compare it to a regular Village or even Hamlet (which provide +1 card), it's essentially a wash in the very early game and a detriment very soon after.  +1 card is going to get you more value than +$1 in an engine most of the time.

I don't think Moat-Masquerade is the same kind of thing.  +2 cards is on a different level than +$1, and you would be comparing Masquerade against other trashers, many of which don't provide any draw at all.  You don't really compare Masquerade against Smithy because they have such different functions.  Likewise, CotR should be compared against other splitters.  Village is probably the most appropriate baseline there, and CotR doesn't really provide a significant economic difference compared to it (likewise for Hamlet, which might be a better baseline due to the cost).  And just like it's not so helpful to compare Masquerade vs. Smithy, it's not particularly helpful to compare CotR and Silver since they serve different functions -- which is exactly the comparison that is invited when you call CotR an "economic boost", thus what I am arguing against. 

If CotR provides an economic boost that's worth mentioning, then that should be a positive factor in your decision of whether to buy it or not.  I'm saying that this pretty much never happens; if you buy it, you buy it for the actions.

This is starting to sound like a bigger deal than it really is though.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Article: Coin of the Realm
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2016, 09:02:35 am »
+3

Since I'm busy adding some stuff to the Wiki anyway, I added your article: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Coin_of_the_Realm#Strategy

I realize the article is not that recent anymore, but since there's no other article about it, I thought it would make sense to include it. If you object its presence on the Wiki, or feel that its contents should be updated, feel free to remove or alter it.
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