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Author Topic: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.  (Read 4858 times)

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LibraryAdventurer

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Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« on: June 03, 2015, 01:49:40 am »
+1

I thought about putting this as the subject: "I have an idea for a reserve card. Who wants to help design it?" but I thought better of it. So the concept is a reserve card called Bartender that has this line as a drawback: "Each other player may put a Reserve card from their hand onto their tavern mat." But I'm not sure what to do with the rest of the card. It has to be a Reserve card, and it has to be strong enough to justify the drawback. Also, because of the drawback line, I want it to have its call effect at the start of a turn.

Here's my initial brainstorming idea:
Quote
Bartender
Cost $3(?)  Action - Reserve
+1 Action.
Each other player may put a Reserve card from their hand onto their tavern mat. Put this on your tavern mat.
-
You may call this at the start of your turn to draw 4 cards, discard one, and put one back on your deck.

a similar 'meta-reserve' idea:
Quote
Bartender
Cost $3(?)  Action - Reserve
+1 Action.
Each other player may put a Reserve card from their hand onto their tavern mat. Put this on your tavern mat.
-
You may call this at the start of your turn to reveal the top 4 cards of your deck, put a revealed reserve card on your tavern mat, put another revealed card into your hand, and put the rest back.

thoughts? other ideas to fit the concept?

eHalcyon

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2015, 02:05:44 am »
+1

It's an interesting penalty.  I'd stick with something simple for the call effect.  Maybe even try with just +3 cards.

The meta-reserve doesn't work because it's pointless if it's the only Reserve card on the board.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 02:52:30 am »
0

It's an interesting penalty.  I'd stick with something simple for the call effect.  Maybe even try with just +3 cards.

The meta-reserve doesn't work because it's pointless if it's the only Reserve card on the board.
It can put another Bartender on the mat. (which would have the effect of +1 card if you would have drawn and played it that turn.) But anyway that was only brainstorming.  I could try it with +3 cards, but there's already several cards that allow you to draw at the start of your turn for a bigger hand (caravan, wharf, haunted woods, expedition), but I guess it might be cool to have a reserve card that does it.

eHalcyon

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 03:01:08 am »
0

It's an interesting penalty.  I'd stick with something simple for the call effect.  Maybe even try with just +3 cards.

The meta-reserve doesn't work because it's pointless if it's the only Reserve card on the board.
It can put another Bartender on the mat. (which would have the effect of +1 card if you would have drawn and played it that turn.) But anyway that was only brainstorming.  I could try it with +3 cards, but there's already several cards that allow you to draw at the start of your turn for a bigger hand (caravan, wharf, haunted woods, expedition), but I guess it might be cool to have a reserve card that does it.

Yeah you could add another Bartender to your hand, but all that does for you is it gets you another Bartender on your mat, since Bartender itself is just a disappearing action.  Basically all you're doing is playing Bartender to cycle through more Bartenders, with no net gain in the end.  Maybe it would work if Bartender were a cantrip or had some other vanilla bonus, but that's kind of like Scout+Great Hall.

Instead of a free Smithy, how about a free Market?  Note that the +1 action on call would make it a splitter.  It would be very powerful, but the penalty could balance it out.  Tough to say.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 03:02:13 am »
0

Cool idea, and I like Bartender for someone who gets people into the Tavern. It might be worth testing "+bonus per other player who did this", or "+bonus if any other player did this".

It's kind of cool that if you place a Bartender from another player's Bartender, you don't have to give them the opportunity to do the same.

Small point: I think "draw 4 cards, discard one, and put one back on your deck" is ambiguous. Do you have to discard and topdeck cards you just drew? If so, I think you'd normally reveal or look at the 4 cards first.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2015, 08:35:15 am »
0

I'm not sure that's a good drawback. If this is the only Reserve card in the Kingdom, then the drawback has no effect at all unless other players also go for this same card. I can't think of any card in Dominion that specifically behaves differently depending on if other players have one or not.

If there are other Reserve cards in the Kingdom, then it matters which ones they are. For Royal Carriage and Wine Merchant, it doesn't make a difference. For Duplicate and Distant Lands, it basically just gives each other player +1 action at the start of their turn. For the others, it gives them the ability to get their Call effect 1 turn sooner. That last case is when it makes the most sense; then it becomes like the Caravan Guard reaction effect.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2015, 08:56:34 am »
+2

I can't think of any card in Dominion that specifically behaves differently depending on if other players have one or not.

I think nothing else doing something is a good enough reason as any to try it out.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2015, 09:10:20 am »
+1

I can't think of any card in Dominion that specifically behaves differently depending on if other players have one or not.

I think nothing else doing something is a good enough reason as any to try it out.

I disagree. While it's true that "it's never been done" isn't a good enough reason by itself to avoid doing something, it's also not a reason to do something. Lots of things that haven't been done before haven't been done for good reason. And I didn't just say "it's never been done, so it's a bad idea". I first explained why I thought it was a bad idea, and then mentioned that it hasn't been done; meaning to say that I think it hasn't been done because it doesn't seem like a good idea.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2015, 10:49:29 am »
+1

I can't think of any card in Dominion that specifically behaves differently depending on if other players have one or not.

I think nothing else doing something is a good enough reason as any to try it out.

I disagree. While it's true that "it's never been done" isn't a good enough reason by itself to avoid doing something, it's also not a reason to do something. Lots of things that haven't been done before haven't been done for good reason. And I didn't just say "it's never been done, so it's a bad idea". I first explained why I thought it was a bad idea, and then mentioned that it hasn't been done; meaning to say that I think it hasn't been done because it doesn't seem like a good idea.

I didn't say it's worth doing, I said it's worth trying it out. It's not quite true that no other card in Dominion behaves differently depending on if other players go for it - the Minion attack is weaker if the other players have Minions, the Vault penalty is weaker if the other players have Vaults. Another player going for Cities helps you empty the pile quicker. Plenty of other cards act differently depending on what other players have or what else is in the game.

I think if done well, "acts differently if other players have them" could be interesting. It's one decision whether or not to buy them if no one else has, and then another if someone has started buying them.

I think in this case it may not work too well though, since rather than the penalty being a penalty, it will simply be a matter of whoever gets the card in hand second each time will benefit more. It being irrelevant in some games just means the rest of the card has to be interesting enough.
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zporiri

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2015, 11:43:51 am »
+1

Also, it's not necessarily a drawback. There are some cards I don't want to put on my tavern mat (wine merchant).
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eHalcyon

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2015, 11:55:53 am »
+2

I'm not sure that's a good drawback. If this is the only Reserve card in the Kingdom, then the drawback has no effect at all unless other players also go for this same card. I can't think of any card in Dominion that specifically behaves differently depending on if other players have one or not.

If there are other Reserve cards in the Kingdom, then it matters which ones they are. For Royal Carriage and Wine Merchant, it doesn't make a difference. For Duplicate and Distant Lands, it basically just gives each other player +1 action at the start of their turn. For the others, it gives them the ability to get their Call effect 1 turn sooner. That last case is when it makes the most sense; then it becomes like the Caravan Guard reaction effect.

I think it's fine.  Moat is different depending on whether other players have attacks.  Other reactions are similar.  This drawback is just like making other cards into pseudo-reactions, and itself being a Reserve means that the drawback is always relevant.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 11:56:59 am by eHalcyon »
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2015, 12:52:26 am »
0

Throwing out more ideas for this concept:

Quote
Bartender
Cost $3 - Action / Reserve
+1 Action.
Each other player may put a Reserve card from their hand onto their tavern mat. Put this on your tavern mat.
-
You may call this at the start of your turn for discard 2 cards, then draw 4.
With this one, other players can call their Bartender sooner, but if they do, they're at a drawback because of having to discard from a 4 card hand. ...but that makes the drawback kinda pointless most of the time.

So we can probably discard that one and go back to the drawing board:   ;D
Quote
Bartender
Cost $3 - Action / Reserve
+1 Action.
Each other player may put a Reserve card from their hand onto their tavern mat. If they do, they draw a card. Put this on your tavern mat.
-
You may call this at the start of your turn for +4 cards, then discard 2 cards.
Call effect is almost the same as the first one in the OP, but the effect for others is stronger & more interesting (maybe too strong?).
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 01:00:45 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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liopoil

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2015, 10:29:56 am »
+1

Since this is non-terminal the 'penalty' only hurts in edge cases, since it isn't particularly useful for the opponent can just play it on their turn. I'd make it terminal, then it could work. Even as a terminal it feels a bit strong because it is a non-terminal smithy next turn at a cost of 3, and that not even considering the sifting. You're probably going to call this next turn almost everybtime anyway, so I'd make it a duration maybe, though you would have to change the penalty.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2015, 06:39:54 pm »
0

Since this is non-terminal the 'penalty' only hurts in edge cases, since it isn't particularly useful for the opponent can just play it on their turn. I'd make it terminal, then it could work. Even as a terminal it feels a bit strong because it is a non-terminal smithy next turn at a cost of 3, and that not even considering the sifting. You're probably going to call this next turn almost everybtime anyway, so I'd make it a duration maybe, though you would have to change the penalty.
It does allow them to call the card a turn sooner, but that is still probably not a big enough drawback (except possibly for the version that gives other players +1 card if they put a reserve on their mat). I agree it would probably be better as a terminal. I guess I was reluctant because my only other reserve card (Illusionist) is terminal coin on play, and I don't like it to do nothing at all on play.

Quote
Bartender
Cost $3 - Action / Reserve
+$1. Each other player may put a Reserve card from their hand onto their tavern mat. Put this on your tavern mat.
-
You may call this at the start of your turn for discard 2 cards, then draw 4.

Also, I don't think you'd always be calling this the next turn after you play it because you could easily not have two cards you'd want to discard to draw more (especially if you've been hit by a discarding attack). Partly for this reason, I'm leaning more toward the discard first, then draw rather than draw and then discard -to keep it from being too strong for a $3 with a minor drawback.

...OR I just had an almost-completely different idea which is close enough to the general concept* to take the name:
Quote
Bartender
Cost $5 - Action
+1 Card. You may put any action card from your hand onto your tavern mat. If it isn't a reserve card, at the start of your turn, you may call that card for its usual on play effect.
I'm wondering if there will be enough interesting uses for this for it to be a good reserve card. And by 'interesting', I mean not just using it as a splitter or something that may as well be a duration. Also wondering if it'd be better if it said "any action card costing up to $4".

*I guess the general concept really is a card that puts other cards on the tavern mat.  Maybe this general idea will split and become more than one card.

Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2015, 09:10:46 am »
+2

Since this is non-terminal the 'penalty' only hurts in edge cases, since it isn't particularly useful for the opponent can just play it on their turn. I'd make it terminal, then it could work. Even as a terminal it feels a bit strong because it is a non-terminal smithy next turn at a cost of 3, and that not even considering the sifting. You're probably going to call this next turn almost everybtime anyway, so I'd make it a duration maybe, though you would have to change the penalty.
It does allow them to call the card a turn sooner, but that is still probably not a big enough drawback (except possibly for the version that gives other players +1 card if they put a reserve on their mat). I agree it would probably be better as a terminal. I guess I was reluctant because my only other reserve card (Illusionist) is terminal coin on play, and I don't like it to do nothing at all on play.

I like the general idea and think there's a place to be filled for cards which refer to the Reserve type. This is a good way to interact with them. I agree with liopoil* that it should be terminal. It would make the drawback much more relevant.

...OR I just had an almost-completely different idea which is close enough to the general concept* to take the name:
Quote
Bartender
Cost $5 - Action
+1 Card. You may put any action card from your hand onto your tavern mat. If it isn't a reserve card, at the start of your turn, you may call that card for its usual on play effect.
I'm wondering if there will be enough interesting uses for this for it to be a good reserve card. And by 'interesting', I mean not just using it as a splitter or something that may as well be a duration. Also wondering if it'd be better if it said "any action card costing up to $4".

*I guess the general concept really is a card that puts other cards on the tavern mat.  Maybe this general idea will split and become more than one card.

This is also a cool idea, and it may easily be a totally different card than the other Bartender. At least, it's worth testing. Try both, maybe they both work out.

*BTW, liopoil, I just watched the recent game where you defeated AdamH with a double-Bcrat-pin. Beautifully done :D It's nice to see something exotic like this actually work out.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 09:12:27 am by Co0kieL0rd »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Bartender: Reserve card with drawback.
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2015, 06:33:25 pm »
0

*BTW, liopoil, I just watched the recent game where you defeated AdamH with a double-Bcrat-pin. Beautifully done :D It's nice to see something exotic like this actually work out.

I'm guessing Watchtower was involved?
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