Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[majiponi]

TR - Raze case.

At first time I chose trashing Raze and look two cards, putting one into my hand, discarded the other.
At the second time, can I choose trashing Raze again (failure)?
If so, can I look two cards, putting one into my hand, discard the other?
Or should I trash another card?
This text differs to Count?
Please explain.

[AJD]

TR - Raze case.

At first time I chose trashing Raze and look two cards, putting one into my hand, discarded the other.
At the second time, can I choose trashing Raze again (failure)?

Yes, you can choose to trash Raze again (and fail to do so).

If so, can I look two cards, putting one into my hand, discard the other?

No, since no card was actually trashed.

[majiponi]

Raze text:
+1 Action
Trash this or a card from your hand. ...

The point is, whether my duty is
1. choosing a trashable card (from my hand or play), and trashing it
2. choosing "trashing the Raze" or "trashing a card from my hand", and do so

I am poor at reading English, so please let me know the reason.

[Seprix]

Raze text:
+1 Action
Trash this or a card from your hand. ...

The point is, whether my duty is
1. choosing a trashable card (from my hand or play), and trashing it
2. choosing "trashing the Raze" or "trashing a card from my hand", and do so

I am poor at reading English, so please let me know the reason.

Raze

You may choose either option with Raze, trashing itself or a card in your hand. If you TR it, you get to make this decision twice. If you trash Raze on your first go, you no longer have it in play, but the action is not resolved yet, because TR is still calling it. You must resolve the action, either trashing a card in your hand or trashing the Raze card (which does nothing, because it is already gone).

[eHalcyon]

Raze text:
+1 Action
Trash this or a card from your hand. ...

The point is, whether my duty is
1. choosing a trashable card (from my hand or play), and trashing it
2. choosing "trashing the Raze" or "trashing a card from my hand", and do so

I am poor at reading English, so please let me know the reason.

It's the 2nd one.  You can choose "this" or you can choose "a card from your hand".  "This" refers to the Raze you just played.  You cannot choose a different card that is in play because that is not one of the options.

[chipperMDW]

I think this is what he's asking:

Say set A is the set containing only the Raze (this), and set B is the set containing all cards in your hand.

Does Raze ask you to select exactly one card from the union of A and B?  Or does it ask you to select one of the sets A or B, then select exactly one card from the set you chose?

In other words, does Raze just have you make a single choice, or does it first have you make a choice between two groups of cards, then potentially have you choose a card from that group?

It would matter, for example, if you played Raze as the last card in your hand.  In the first case, you'd be forced to trash Raze because there would be a card for you to select from the available options for your one choice.  In the second, if you didn't want to trash anything, you'd be able to first select the (empty) set of all cards in your hand and then fail to select exactly one card from it, letting you trash nothing.

You guys are saying it's the second interpretation, but are you sure we know that's how it works?  I don't know of any precedent that suggests it works one way or the other.  Hermit is the only other effect that has you select a card from two distinct groups like that (discard pile or hand), and it's never mattered how exactly that works because it's optional.

[majiponi]

I think this is what he's asking:

Say set A is the set containing only the Raze (this), and set B is the set containing all cards in your hand.

Does Raze ask you to select exactly one card from the union of A and B?  Or does it ask you to select one of the sets A or B, then select exactly one card from the set you chose?

In other words, does Raze just have you make a single choice, or does it first have you make a choice between two groups of cards, then potentially have you choose a card from that group?

It would matter, for example, if you played Raze as the last card in your hand.  In the first case, you'd be forced to trash Raze because there would be a card for you to select from the available options for your one choice.  In the second, if you didn't want to trash anything, you'd be able to first select the (empty) set of all cards in your hand and then fail to select exactly one card from it, letting you trash nothing.

You guys are saying it's the second interpretation, but are you sure we know that's how it works?  I don't know of any precedent that suggests it works one way or the other.  Hermit is the only other effect that has you select a card from two distinct groups like that (discard pile or hand), and it's never mattered how exactly that works because it's optional.

This is exactly what I wanted to ask!
Thanks for recognizeing me.

[eHalcyon]

You guys are saying it's the second interpretation, but are you sure we know that's how it works?  I don't know of any precedent that suggests it works one way or the other.  Hermit is the only other effect that has you select a card from two distinct groups like that (discard pile or hand), and it's never mattered how exactly that works because it's optional.

I misunderstood the question.

Hmm... I am not sure.  Based on the wording of the card, I kind of think you would always be forced to trash Raze itself if you don't trash a card from your hand.  But the FAQ doesn't really clarify, and I can see it go either way.

Edit: I posted the question to the interview thread.

[GendoIkari]

Pretty sure you can choose an impossible option just like you can choose Gain a Curse for Torturer when the Curses are empty.

[Seprix]

I still see no problem here. You can play Raze, and you cannot trash a card from your hand, so you must trash Raze itself or trash nothing (as trashing a card from your hand), and so you get no effect, because the 'card' you trashed does not exist, and so does not have a cost.

[Jeebus]

The only other ones seem to be for gaining: Tournament and Hunting Grounds' when-trash. For Tournament you can choose Duchy even when it's empty, or Prizes even when it's empty. For Hunting Grounds you can choose Duchy even when it's empty, or 3 Estates even when it's empty (or has less than 3).

[Awaclus]

For Tournament you can choose Duchy even when it's empty, or Prizes even when it's empty.

I don't think that's true. At least that's not how Goko implements it.

[GendoIkari]

For Tournament you can choose Duchy even when it's empty, or Prizes even when it's empty.

I don't think that's true. At least that's not how Goko implements it.

No, that's right. If Goko doesn't allow it then Goko is wrong.

[Seprix]

For Tournament you can choose Duchy even when it's empty, or Prizes even when it's empty.

I don't think that's true. At least that's not how Goko implements it.

Awaclus, you're not suggesting the company that can't even put all the cards on the same page or make an effective overall system is right in the implementation of Tournament, are you?

[Drab Emordnilap]

So what makes this different from Workshop (where I have to gain any card costing up to $4, even if there's an empty pile I could choose)?

[Seprix]

So what makes this different from Workshop (where I have to gain any card costing up to $4, even if there's an empty pile I could choose)?

I don't think it does make it any different. Why waste an action on Workshop not gaining anything? Just because Goko implements it doesn't make it true.

[GendoIkari]

So what makes this different from Workshop (where I have to gain any card costing up to $4, even if there's an empty pile I could choose)?

I don't think it does make it any different. Why waste an action on Workshop not gaining anything? Just because Goko implements it doesn't make it true.

No. Workshop is different. You cannot choose an empty pile. The difference is that Workshop isn't providing you a choice of different things; it's one instruction which you must follow.

[Seprix]

So what makes this different from Workshop (where I have to gain any card costing up to $4, even if there's an empty pile I could choose)?

I don't think it does make it any different. Why waste an action on Workshop not gaining anything? Just because Goko implements it doesn't make it true.

No. Workshop is different. You cannot choose an empty pile. The difference is that Workshop isn't providing you a choice of different things; it's one instruction which you must follow.

Thanks for thinking, unlike me.

[Voltaire]

So what makes this different from Workshop (where I have to gain any card costing up to $4, even if there's an empty pile I could choose)?

I don't think it does make it any different. Why waste an action on Workshop not gaining anything? Just because Goko implements it doesn't make it true.

No. Workshop is different. You cannot choose an empty pile. The difference is that Workshop isn't providing you a choice of different things; it's one instruction which you must follow.

aka the Dominion axiom "Do as much as you can"

[ChocophileBenj]

If in a parallele universe Donald X. pointed it out and wanted it to work the other way (mandatory trashing) I guess it would give something really heavy without extra mechanisms :
"Set this card temporarely to your hand if it is in play then trash a card from your hand, returning this card in play if you didn't choose it."

And everybody prefers simple wording that forgets edge cases, obviously. (though Tactician had to be worded some way to avoid a Throme Room/Tac combo. And then : what would've happened if DXV had the idea of Tac first and TR/KC/Poss... afterwards ?)

[Donald X.]

So what makes this different from Workshop (where I have to gain any card costing up to $4, even if there's an empty pile I could choose)?

I don't think it does make it any different. Why waste an action on Workshop not gaining anything? Just because Goko implements it doesn't make it true.

No. Workshop is different. You cannot choose an empty pile. The difference is that Workshop isn't providing you a choice of different things; it's one instruction which you must follow.

In fact you don't pick a pile at all with Workshop. You pick a card.

[Donald X.]

TR - Raze case.

At first time I chose trashing Raze and look two cards, putting one into my hand, discarded the other.
At the second time, can I choose trashing Raze again (failure)?
If so, can I look two cards, putting one into my hand, discard the other?
Or should I trash another card?
This text differs to Count?
Please explain.

The second time you can pick Raze again, but you will fail to trash it and thus not look at any cards - there's no trashed card to refer to.

[Donald X.]

Raze text:
+1 Action
Trash this or a card from your hand. ...

The point is, whether my duty is
1. choosing a trashable card (from my hand or play), and trashing it
2. choosing "trashing the Raze" or "trashing a card from my hand", and do so

I am poor at reading English, so please let me know the reason.

You can pick "Raze" or "a card from your hand" even if there's no Raze (due to trashing it previously via using Throne Room on it) or no cards in your hand.

It's a general rule of Dominion that when you are told to pick something to do, you don't have to pick something you are able to do. At the moment of choosing, you're just choosing; we find out later if you were able to do it. So you can play Count and choose to gain a Duchy and a Copper even with both of those piles empty, and so on.

In this case it's not so clearly delimited; it could say "Choose one: Trash this; or trash a card from your hand," and then it would be clearer.

[majiponi]

Thanks for your judge.
Now I see.

[Seprix]