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Author Topic: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island  (Read 3332 times)

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GendoIkari

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Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« on: June 01, 2015, 10:14:31 pm »
0

I play Throne Room, choosing Band of Misfits. The first time, I play BoM as Feast; so it trashes itself and reverts to being BoM. Now when I play it again, it's a BoM, so I can choose a different card (as per the new recent ruling). I choose Island. Does the card move to the Island Mat, because in the trash is where BoM expects to be, or does it stay in the trash because of Lose Track? I believe it's the latter, but one could argue for the former because BoM hasn't moved from the trash, so it's still where it was when it was played.
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AJD

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2015, 10:38:15 pm »
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I believe your interpretation is right, and I think this was covered in a discussion somewhere on Band of Misfits as Feast and then a Reserve card.
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pubby

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2015, 10:52:35 pm »
+2

Pretty sure you get to set aside another card, but Island stays in the trash.

Imagine if instead of playing Feast, you played this hypothetical card:

HypoCard - Action
+2 Cards
Place this card on top of your deck. If you do, shuffle your deck.

As far as I know, this could be a legal card. Now, the LoseTrack rule would apply to it just as it would apply to Feast or Madman; if you play Procession on HypoCard you get +4 cards, but it stays in your deck rather than being trashed.

Now, imagine if you had Throned a BoM, first choosing HypoCard and then choosing Island. Surely it would be wrong for the HypoCard to be pulled out of your deck and set aside on your mat, just as it would be wrong for Island to be pulled out of the trash after a Feast.

(edit: Probably don't even need a hypothetical card for things to get confusing. King BoM, choose Feast, then Graverobber to gain your BoM from trash, then Watchtower to topdeck, then Island, etc)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 11:01:00 pm by pubby »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2015, 12:16:00 am »
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I play Throne Room, choosing Band of Misfits. The first time, I play BoM as Feast; so it trashes itself and reverts to being BoM. Now when I play it again, it's a BoM, so I can choose a different card (as per the new recent ruling). I choose Island. Does the card move to the Island Mat, because in the trash is where BoM expects to be, or does it stay in the trash because of Lose Track? I believe it's the latter, but one could argue for the former because BoM hasn't moved from the trash, so it's still where it was when it was played.

BoM should stay in the trash.  I'm pretty sure this kind of situation was discussed to death in the thread where the new ruling came to be, but the intuitive reason is that Island (actually a BoM) expects itself to be in play but isn't.
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Jeebus

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2015, 12:26:58 am »
+2

Also compare with the original lose track scenario, Throne Room + Mining Village. A card's on-play ability always expects the card to be in play.

TR plays BoM from your hand, and puts it into play. BoM plays itself (as Feast) from play. Then Feast's ability moves it to the trash. Now TR plays it again, but has lost track of it. Now BoM plays itself. It was not BoM's ability that put it into trash, so it has no idea about that. But that doesn't matter in any case, because this is a totally new play of BoM. We're still resolving TR, so TR tries to keep track of BoM, expecting it to be where it put it, in play. This is not the case with BoM. We completely resolved BoM the first time. It's not trying to keep track of anything, because it's done. This is playing BoM again, starting over from the top. It could have been a totally other BoM for that matter. Now this time (as always for all cards' on-play abilities) BoM expects itself to be in play. So if you choose to play it as a card that moves itself from play (like Island), it fails. (But yeah, it would move another card to the Island mat.)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 12:28:50 am by Jeebus »
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Kirian

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2015, 10:59:11 am »
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Maybe I'm recalling incorrectly, but I thought the ruling was that TR-BoM locked in the new identity of the BoM.  The BoM goes to the trash and leaves play, but the TR has already been resolved and created two virtual Feasts, as it were.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2015, 11:49:42 am »
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Maybe I'm recalling incorrectly, but I thought the ruling was that TR-BoM locked in the new identity of the BoM.  The BoM goes to the trash and leaves play, but the TR has already been resolved and created two virtual Feasts, as it were.

That was the original ruling.  There was a large discussion after Adventures was released where the ruling was changed.  Can't quite remember what prompted it.  Might have been discussion on how Inheritance works.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2015, 12:18:53 pm »
+4

Maybe I'm recalling incorrectly, but I thought the ruling was that TR-BoM locked in the new identity of the BoM.  The BoM goes to the trash and leaves play, but the TR has already been resolved and created two virtual Feasts, as it were.

That was the original ruling.  There was a large discussion after Adventures was released where the ruling was changed.  Can't quite remember what prompted it.  Might have been discussion on how Inheritance works.

Actually the question that prompted it was about when you get the bonus from tokens, which matters for Urchin. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13115.0
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Kirian

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2015, 01:00:26 pm »
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Maybe I'm recalling incorrectly, but I thought the ruling was that TR-BoM locked in the new identity of the BoM.  The BoM goes to the trash and leaves play, but the TR has already been resolved and created two virtual Feasts, as it were.

That was the original ruling.  There was a large discussion after Adventures was released where the ruling was changed.  Can't quite remember what prompted it.  Might have been discussion on how Inheritance works.

Actually the question that prompted it was about when you get the bonus from tokens, which matters for Urchin. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13115.0

Thanks!  I hadn't realized that.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2015, 01:05:10 pm »
+1

If your Blue Dog is lost on an Island.....
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Donald X.

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2015, 02:44:31 pm »
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I play Throne Room, choosing Band of Misfits. The first time, I play BoM as Feast; so it trashes itself and reverts to being BoM. Now when I play it again, it's a BoM, so I can choose a different card (as per the new recent ruling). I choose Island. Does the card move to the Island Mat, because in the trash is where BoM expects to be, or does it stay in the trash because of Lose Track? I believe it's the latter, but one could argue for the former because BoM hasn't moved from the trash, so it's still where it was when it was played.
BoM doesn't get set aside, because it expects itself to be in play and it isn't.
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majiponi

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2015, 12:16:55 am »
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BoM doesn't get set aside, because it expects itself to be in play and it isn't.
So, this is also applied to the case

TR - BoM - 1st as Island, 2nd as Feast

Set-asided BoM is not trashed because it is not on-play, even though Feast doesn't explicitly say "trash it FROM PLAY", right?
(Similarly, at TR-Feast case, at the 2nd time, Feast does not trash itself from Trash.)
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2015, 05:17:25 am »
+2

BoM doesn't get set aside, because it expects itself to be in play and it isn't.
So, this is also applied to the case

TR - BoM - 1st as Island, 2nd as Feast

Set-asided BoM is not trashed because it is not on-play, even though Feast doesn't explicitly say "trash it FROM PLAY", right?
(Similarly, at TR-Feast case, at the 2nd time, Feast does not trash itself from Trash.)

Exactly. BoM doesn't get trashed, because it expects itself to be in play and it isn't.
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Awaclus

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2015, 05:20:12 am »
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Set-asided BoM is not trashed because it is not on-play, even though Feast doesn't explicitly say "trash it FROM PLAY", right?
(Similarly, at TR-Feast case, at the 2nd time, Feast does not trash itself from Trash.)

Right, but the reason why in the case of TR-Feast the Feast doesn't trash itself from the trash is different. Feast does expect to find itself in the trash, but you can't trash something that's already in trash.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2015, 08:25:30 am »
+1

Set-asided BoM is not trashed because it is not on-play, even though Feast doesn't explicitly say "trash it FROM PLAY", right?
(Similarly, at TR-Feast case, at the 2nd time, Feast does not trash itself from Trash.)

Right, but the reason why in the case of TR-Feast the Feast doesn't trash itself from the trash is different. Feast does expect to find itself in the trash, but you can't trash something that's already in trash.

I don't think this is right. When you play something, that things expects itself to be in play. So if you play Throne Room feast, the second time feast is played is will fail to move to in-play due to lose track, but Feast expects itself to be in play because it was just played. It has been moved by another effect (the previous play of Feast), so it has lost track.

Now, it is ALSO true that you can't ever trash something that's currently in the trash. So with Throne Room Feast, even if Lose Track rule didn't exist, it wouldn't get trashed a second time. Which is why Throne-Room Mining Village worked properly even though that was before the Lose Track rule was officially published. But even so, lose track also applies, Feast does not expect itself to be in the trash.
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Jeebus

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2015, 11:26:41 am »
+1

Now, it is ALSO true that you can't ever trash something that's currently in the trash. So with Throne Room Feast, even if Lose Track rule didn't exist, it wouldn't get trashed a second time. Which is why Throne-Room Mining Village worked properly even though that was before the Lose Track rule was officially published. But even so, lose track also applies, Feast does not expect itself to be in the trash.

You are correct except for one detail (or maybe I misunderstood you): For TR + Mining Village, it only worked correctly because of lose-track. It's true that lose-track is not needed to explain why MV sitting in the trash can't trash itself. But lose-track is needed to explain why TR doesn't pull MV out of the trash and into play.

GendoIkari

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Re: Band of Misfits as Feast then Island
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2015, 01:12:33 pm »
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Now, it is ALSO true that you can't ever trash something that's currently in the trash. So with Throne Room Feast, even if Lose Track rule didn't exist, it wouldn't get trashed a second time. Which is why Throne-Room Mining Village worked properly even though that was before the Lose Track rule was officially published. But even so, lose track also applies, Feast does not expect itself to be in the trash.

You are correct except for one detail (or maybe I misunderstood you): For TR + Mining Village, it only worked correctly because of lose-track. It's true that lose-track is not needed to explain why MV sitting in the trash can't trash itself. But lose-track is needed to explain why TR doesn't pull MV out of the trash and into play.

Ah, good point, I missed that.
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