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Author Topic: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys  (Read 3216 times)

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hyku

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Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys
« on: January 03, 2012, 02:41:32 pm »
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I wanted to discuss what cards or combination of cards to look for that would cause you to choose not spend your full 7 coppers on your first turns.
Obviously if there are no cards at a certain price you would be forced to not use all 7 coppers but what I'm curious about are combinations that you would voluntarily choose.

According to council room these are the best openings that don't cost 7 copper:
   7.579 0.975    5   Tournament / Chapel   4/2
   8.191 3.291    19   Ambassador / Fool's Gold   3/2
   5.731 0.929    21   Monument / Chapel   4/2
   5.136 0.925    41   Ambassador / Ambassador   3/3

Then there are $5 openings that don't include 2 drops.

My favorite opening that doesn't use $7 is bishop/chapel, as long as there are no discard or curse attacks. A 13 turn clock is pretty fast.
There is also native village/bridge, which recently got an article.

What are card combos that are powerful enough to "waste" money on your opening turns?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 02:53:12 pm by hyku »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2012, 02:44:05 pm »
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I lost a game recently by opening Bazaar / nothing (there was no $2). My opponent (who was much higher level than me) advised after the game that I would have done much better by opening Jack / nothing instead.

Related to the question you post in your post, I'm interested in which boards would cause a person to buy nothing with 1 of their first 2 buys. Obviously 5/2 with no $2, but would you ever do that with a 4/3 split?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2012, 02:45:28 pm »
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Silver/Silver. Okay, it's very board dependent.
Remodel/Fool's Gold
Nomad Camp/Fool's Gold (or vice versa)
Woodcutter/Fool's Gold
Bridge/Fool's Gold
Silver/Courtyard
Silver/Oracle
LOTS of stuff with chapel
and a strong 5 without a decent 2, obviously.
And I'm sure there are many more.

rrenaud

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Re: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2012, 02:45:34 pm »
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5/2 - Ambassador/nothing.

Ambassador, the little $3 that could ;).
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dondon151

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Re: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2012, 02:49:56 pm »
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Openings with Ambassador, Masquerade, and Swindler.

I can't really imagine any kingdoms where it would be exceedingly optimal to skip an opening buy with a 4/3. Maybe if you don't want a single Silver or something? But that's pretty rare to begin with.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2012, 02:56:56 pm »
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Openings with Ambassador, Masquerade, and Swindler.

I can't really imagine any kingdoms where it would be exceedingly optimal to skip an opening buy with a 4/3. Maybe if you don't want a single Silver or something? But that's pretty rare to begin with.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think that X + Silver is ALWAYS better than X + nothing. I mean, there are some decks where you don't want much treasure, but even then that 1 initial Silver will help you get those $5's.

*Edit* How about Treasure Map? The extra Silver will make it harder to get them both in hand, but on the other hand, without a Silver, it might be hard to buy a second Treasure Map.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2012, 03:01:41 pm »
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I can't think of a single scenario I won't use both turns' buys on with 4/3. Maybe there's some really weird fringe case. Maybe there WILL be one with forthcoming expansions. But you'd need to a) have something where silver is a hindrance, right from the start, and b) have that thing cost 5+, which is gonna be really rare, because in order to get that 5+ card... you'll usually need more than a single card that costs 4 or less...

Oh, also, FG/FG

GendoIkari

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Re: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2012, 03:07:22 pm »
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I can't think of a single scenario I won't use both turns' buys on with 4/3. Maybe there's some really weird fringe case. Maybe there WILL be one with forthcoming expansions. But you'd need to a) have something where silver is a hindrance, right from the start, and b) have that thing cost 5+, which is gonna be really rare, because in order to get that 5+ card... you'll usually need more than a single card that costs 4 or less...

Oh, also, FG/FG

I don't get why you're saying that the card in question would need to cost 5+.

How about Trader? If your plan is to Trader your Estates for 2 Silver each, you might not want to open Silver because you think that the 6 Silvers is more than enough, and a 7th will just clog.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2012, 03:15:03 pm »
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I can't think of a single scenario I won't use both turns' buys on with 4/3. Maybe there's some really weird fringe case. Maybe there WILL be one with forthcoming expansions. But you'd need to a) have something where silver is a hindrance, right from the start, and b) have that thing cost 5+, which is gonna be really rare, because in order to get that 5+ card... you'll usually need more than a single card that costs 4 or less...

Oh, also, FG/FG

I don't get why you're saying that the card in question would need to cost 5+.

How about Trader? If your plan is to Trader your Estates for 2 Silver each, you might not want to open Silver because you think that the 6 Silvers is more than enough, and a 7th will just clog.
I guess there could be something that costs 4. But then you don't want even a single silver. And I can't think of a 4 that you want that much and don't want without silver.
As for the trader thing... that's absurd. First off, you're crazy to think you can get the estates lined up with trader oh so nicely to get what you want accomplished in the first like 10 turns even buying nothing else. But more importantly, what deck wants exactly 6 silvers but not 7? And more than likely it's faster to just buy some of them anyway.

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2012, 03:18:08 pm »
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How about Trader? If your plan is to Trader your Estates for 2 Silver each, you might not want to open Silver because you think that the 6 Silvers is more than enough, and a 7th will just clog.
The difference between 6 and 7 silvers after 4+ shuffles is negligible. The difference between 0 and 1 at the first shuffle is huge. Trader/nothing can't get a $5+ card until the second shuffle.

A situation where *maybe* you don't use both opening buys is going for "the golden deck" in a 4-player bishop game. Open something like remake/nothing so you get their trashes but they don't get yours, get your silver via the remake and buy your bishop late? I'm not sure if this is actually the best way to go, but if there is a situation, it has to be something like this.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 03:23:31 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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ecq

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Re: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2012, 11:02:19 pm »
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Horse Traders + Nothing could be better than HT + Silver in a Colony game with Hunting Party.  Horse Traders will get you Gold and Hunting Party pretty consistently, and Silver is a pretty weak card for HP to find.

Potion + Nothing would be better than Potion + Silver if you were doing the NV + Apothecary combo.  You'd probably still want the opening buy, though (Potion + Copper).  NV is a dead card until you have an Apothecary.

(Edit) If you know the other guy is going for Pirate Ship, 4/- openings could make sense.  Ironworks/-, Moneylender/-, Conspirator/- all seem plausible.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 11:13:07 pm by ecq »
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Wingnut

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Re: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2012, 02:31:39 am »
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In some games when building an engine, I open double Fishing Village or FV/Silver, leaving one coin on the table. The other one that I try a lot is Tunnel with either Cellar or Warehouse.

As for opening whatever/nothing on a 4/3 start, I can't think of a spot where I would skip a buy. At the very least, silver/silver is going to be a decent option with nothing of value to buy at 3 or 4. Maybe in a multi-player game with Noble Brigand and Embargo that somehow gets silver embargoed before my second buy, but at that point I think I take an Embargo with the second buy.
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Geronimoo

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Re: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2012, 02:34:57 am »
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Horse Traders/Silver is still stronger than Horse Traders/- when going Hunting Party in a Colony game. The Silver will allow a turn 3 AND turn 4 HP (or Gold) which is almost impossible without the Silver. (From simulations)
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Elyv

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Re: Tables/cards that you choose to not max out your opening buys
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2012, 02:37:56 am »
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One time I had to open I had to open Remake/ because there were no 2s or 5s I wanted to open with on the table.

I did not win that game.

Edit: Apparently that happened twice, actually.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 02:45:25 am by Elyv »
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