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drsteelhammer

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #125 on: June 05, 2015, 05:44:23 am »
+3

This thread has gotten hilarious.

Adam, I hope I don't misunderstood you but I still stand by the apparent rhetoric genius on this one. Don't compare your decision making to his advice but the "scout is bad, but not horrible" mindset (sorry roadrunner, that was just too fitting :) )

From that point, general advice like "buy lots of wharves" and "get 2mercs" is better than what most beginners did previously. And like I said before, if you want to become good at the game, you will question these guidelines anyway at some point, but you might play a bit more successful if you follow these before that phase comes.

And we totally don't appeal to SCSN authority on that one, becaue we are all free-thinking, rational and reflecting people....right guys??
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #126 on: June 05, 2015, 06:45:01 am »
+1

I happen to be very well-versed in classical rhetoric and have spent an inordinate amount of time deliberately honing my writing skills. What you mistake for carelesness on my part is simply the apparent randomness with which a concert pianist smashes his hands on the keys and magically produces widely appreciated tones. It can be a quite frustrating experience indeed if you're up next and don't actually know anything about harmony!
That made me smile, your writing style is truly enjoyable. I hope there is a bit of self-irony between these lines though.

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #127 on: June 05, 2015, 07:20:13 am »
0

I happen to be very well-versed in classical rhetoric and have spent an inordinate amount of time deliberately honing my writing skills. What you mistake for carelesness on my part is simply the apparent randomness with which a concert pianist smashes his hands on the keys and magically produces widely appreciated tones. It can be a quite frustrating experience indeed if you're up next and don't actually know anything about harmony!
That made me smile, your writing style is truly enjoyable. I hope there is a bit of self-irony between these lines though.

I predicate presentation portrayed as personality.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #128 on: June 05, 2015, 08:11:31 am »
+2

Yes, because clearly I was suggesting we change the Wharf article to literally "Wharf is good". Of course it's pretty useless if that's all you say about it. But I think statements like the one you said can be pretty harmful. I'd much rather read about WHEN it's important to win the Wharf split. What needs to be true about the board for winning the Wharf split to be less essential? And if you don't have time to get into that, then at least qualify your statement with a "usually" or something along those lines so beginners don't read it and start playing robotically by that guideline. Sure, expert players won't take it that way, but then again expert players probably aren't the ones who need to be told that winning the Wharf split is generally important.

I'm probably guilty of adding the "usually" way too often myself.

The thing is, all strategy advice about Dominion depends on the kingdom. Everyone knows that. If I say that you should always try to win the Wharf split, everyone knows that it's not always true. Even if someone memorizes that exact piece of advice, when they come across a kingdom where they don't want to win the Wharf split, they can probably see it themselves, and if not, then they'll just lose that one game and learn a lot. When there's no particular reason why it wouldn't be true, people will follow the advice the way it's supposed to be followed, and win.

If I say that you should usually try to win the Wharf split, and then someone memorizes that, the advice is not as efficient because there are two layers of uncertainty here: the "everything depends on the kingdom" that the person already knows, and my "usually". That adds up, and then there is more of it than necessary, and while it will help them avoid Wharf when they should, it will help them actually go for the Wharves a lot less, and that's the more important part.

If you're writing an article about a card, then you should be knowledgeable and bothered enough to actually explain some useful edge cases for the advice you're giving. There's no need to mention obscure stuff that requires, like, 2 or more cards or a very specific situation, but it's good to mention that being able to play a lot of discard attacks can seriously slow Hermit/Market Square down. But it's not reasonable to demand that every piece of advice given on the Game Reports forum or something like that must be a mini-article covering all the edge cases. It takes time to write, it takes time to read, and it's probably not what the OP (or whoever it is) is looking for. There's also the issue that not every high-level player is perfect. For example, I don't have Governor on Goko or IRL, which is why I'm experienced enough to tell you that you should always buy lots of Governors, but not experienced enough to be able to come up with some relatively common counterexample scenarios on the spot. I don't think that means I'm not allowed to tell people they should buy lots of Governors.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #129 on: June 05, 2015, 08:48:50 am »
+1


Oh, and I hate Interstellar Casus Belli. Other take over cards you can play around, but that one is just silly. It simply breaks the game in 3P+ faster than you can say "Kingmaking".


You can just avoid military altogether, and it can be tough for the ICB player to produce the "seed" prestige needed to get it started.  Yes IMPERIUM Invasion Fleet does allow you to combo to take over any world, but that is pretty dang expensive and requires both cards to end up in your tableau and you have to be able to afford that in the first place.  My beef with Brink of War is that prestige and develop-spam are a bit too strong compared with previous expansions.
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Seprix

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #130 on: June 05, 2015, 10:09:08 am »
+3

The way I see it is this. When I was new, I was told strategies, and I was cool with it. And then there were always strings attached, inconsistencies and edge cases. Nothing was definite, everything had a sort of Descartes and nihilist feel to it. I didn't really know anything and nothing I was taught mattered at all. I eventually came to the conclusion that I just had to experiment on my own and only take advice semi seriously. But before I came to that conclusion, I kept getting frustrated.  The constant references to edge cases are bad after a certain point when you're new. It's better to just say general truths, and say everything generally works, but has edge cases than to bring up all of the scenarios. Save that for more experienced players, is what I propose.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #131 on: June 05, 2015, 10:47:38 am »
+5

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #132 on: June 05, 2015, 12:05:38 pm »
+6

The way I see it is this. When I was new, I was told strategies, and I was cool with it. And then there were always strings attached, inconsistencies and edge cases. Nothing was definite, everything had a sort of Descartes and nihilist feel to it. I didn't really know anything and nothing I was taught mattered at all. [...] It's better to just say general truths, and say everything generally works, but has edge cases than to bring up all of the scenarios. Save that for more experienced players, is what I propose.

This is a really important observation. When someone is new and/or stuck in a suboptimal habit, they need simple directions to a new playground, not elaborate minutiae. It's similar to someone struggling with basic high school math asking whether x*y equals y*x. The unequivocally correct answer is "yes, it does!". If someone would interferes by mumbling something about quaternions or matrix algebra, he doesn't deserve applause for being technically correct, he deserves to get kicked out of class.

Advice needs to be tailored to the specific needs of your audience, and in the case of Urchins I saw a lot of players from all levels making gross blunders that my simple prescription would mostly correct. It's silly to presume that this somehow holds people back. Teaching Newtonian gravity in highschool doesn't prevent students from learning General Relativity later; it's actually smuggling in advanced nuances too early that messes up learning the most.
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swedenman

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #133 on: June 05, 2015, 12:06:24 pm »
0

Yes, because clearly I was suggesting we change the Wharf article to literally "Wharf is good". Of course it's pretty useless if that's all you say about it. But I think statements like the one you said can be pretty harmful. I'd much rather read about WHEN it's important to win the Wharf split. What needs to be true about the board for winning the Wharf split to be less essential? And if you don't have time to get into that, then at least qualify your statement with a "usually" or something along those lines so beginners don't read it and start playing robotically by that guideline. Sure, expert players won't take it that way, but then again expert players probably aren't the ones who need to be told that winning the Wharf split is generally important.

I'm probably guilty of adding the "usually" way too often myself.

The thing is, all strategy advice about Dominion depends on the kingdom. Everyone knows that. If I say that you should always try to win the Wharf split, everyone knows that it's not always true. Even if someone memorizes that exact piece of advice, when they come across a kingdom where they don't want to win the Wharf split, they can probably see it themselves, and if not, then they'll just lose that one game and learn a lot. When there's no particular reason why it wouldn't be true, people will follow the advice the way it's supposed to be followed, and win.

If I say that you should usually try to win the Wharf split, and then someone memorizes that, the advice is not as efficient because there are two layers of uncertainty here: the "everything depends on the kingdom" that the person already knows, and my "usually". That adds up, and then there is more of it than necessary, and while it will help them avoid Wharf when they should, it will help them actually go for the Wharves a lot less, and that's the more important part.

If you're writing an article about a card, then you should be knowledgeable and bothered enough to actually explain some useful edge cases for the advice you're giving. There's no need to mention obscure stuff that requires, like, 2 or more cards or a very specific situation, but it's good to mention that being able to play a lot of discard attacks can seriously slow Hermit/Market Square down. But it's not reasonable to demand that every piece of advice given on the Game Reports forum or something like that must be a mini-article covering all the edge cases. It takes time to write, it takes time to read, and it's probably not what the OP (or whoever it is) is looking for. There's also the issue that not every high-level player is perfect. For example, I don't have Governor on Goko or IRL, which is why I'm experienced enough to tell you that you should always buy lots of Governors, but not experienced enough to be able to come up with some relatively common counterexample scenarios on the spot. I don't think that means I'm not allowed to tell people they should buy lots of Governors.

Well you're allowed to say whatever you want. I just personally prefer when people say things that are true or useful. And everything we say is context-dependent. I'm not suggesting every post you make be a mini-article detailing all of the finer points about a card's usage. In the Game Reports forum especially a statement like "Winning the Wharf split is important" is probably fine as it will usually be pertaining to a specific board. But in general I still think it's a bad thing to say. Winning the Wharf split often is important, but not always, and even when it is there are other things to bear in mind. You need to make sure you have enough Villages to support your Wharves, for starters. On a BM board it's usually not as essential that you win the split as they're unlikely to run out. If there is other draw on the board and you don't need all that +Buy you may consider buying that other card at some point instead. You keep saying that people are smart enough to know when these things are true. Well if everyone's just smart enough to figure these cards out on their own then what's the point of discussing strategy? You also say that if they follow this advice and screw up then they'll know better later. This may work, but when you lose a game it's not always clear why. A player may very well be inclined to think "Well, I know winning the Wharf split is important, so I must have lost for some other reason". I mean sure, enough trial-and-error will eventually teach anybody how to play the game, but if we just give accurate advice in the first place then maybe we can expedite the process.
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swedenman

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #134 on: June 05, 2015, 12:08:48 pm »
0

The way I see it is this. When I was new, I was told strategies, and I was cool with it. And then there were always strings attached, inconsistencies and edge cases. Nothing was definite, everything had a sort of Descartes and nihilist feel to it. I didn't really know anything and nothing I was taught mattered at all. [...] It's better to just say general truths, and say everything generally works, but has edge cases than to bring up all of the scenarios. Save that for more experienced players, is what I propose.

This is a really important observation. When someone is new and/or stuck in a suboptimal habit, they need simple directions to a new playground, not elaborate minutiae. It's similar to someone struggling with basic high school math asking whether x*y equals y*x. The unequivocally correct answer is "yes, it does!". If someone would interferes by mumbling something about quaternions or matrix algebra, he doesn't deserve applause for being technically correct, he deserves to get kicked out of class.

Advice needs to be tailored to the specific needs of your audience, and in the case of Urchins I saw a lot of players from all levels making gross blunders that my simple prescription would mostly correct. It's silly to presume that this somehow holds people back. Teaching Newtonian gravity in highschool doesn't prevent students from learning General Relativity later; it's actually smuggling in advanced nuances too early that messes up learning the most.

I'll be sure to keep this in mind in Dominion 101 next semester.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #135 on: June 05, 2015, 12:09:46 pm »
0


Oh, and I hate Interstellar Casus Belli. Other take over cards you can play around, but that one is just silly. It simply breaks the game in 3P+ faster than you can say "Kingmaking".


You can just avoid military altogether, and it can be tough for the ICB player to produce the "seed" prestige needed to get it started.  Yes IMPERIUM Invasion Fleet does allow you to combo to take over any world, but that is pretty dang expensive and requires both cards to end up in your tableau and you have to be able to afford that in the first place.  My beef with Brink of War is that prestige and develop-spam are a bit too strong compared with previous expansions.

It's bad enough that ICB kills opportunistic military, but what it does to Contact Specialist is beyond words. You just can't play that card anymore.

I don't mind prestige as much as others, but it's true that it's very powerful. The real problem is that if two players go after it, whoever is not getting the bonus is in a pretty bad position.

...I wonder which of the two ongoing conversations is more off-topic.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #136 on: June 05, 2015, 12:58:17 pm »
0

Well you're allowed to say whatever you want. I just personally prefer when people say things that are true or useful. And everything we say is context-dependent. I'm not suggesting every post you make be a mini-article detailing all of the finer points about a card's usage. In the Game Reports forum especially a statement like "Winning the Wharf split is important" is probably fine as it will usually be pertaining to a specific board. But in general I still think it's a bad thing to say. Winning the Wharf split often is important, but not always, and even when it is there are other things to bear in mind. You need to make sure you have enough Villages to support your Wharves, for starters. On a BM board it's usually not as essential that you win the split as they're unlikely to run out. If there is other draw on the board and you don't need all that +Buy you may consider buying that other card at some point instead. You keep saying that people are smart enough to know when these things are true. Well if everyone's just smart enough to figure these cards out on their own then what's the point of discussing strategy? You also say that if they follow this advice and screw up then they'll know better later. This may work, but when you lose a game it's not always clear why. A player may very well be inclined to think "Well, I know winning the Wharf split is important, so I must have lost for some other reason". I mean sure, enough trial-and-error will eventually teach anybody how to play the game, but if we just give accurate advice in the first place then maybe we can expedite the process.

Well, you do need to be smart enough to adapt to surprising situations if you want to win at Dominion. No amount of strategy discussion can ever cover all of the edge cases, and even if it could, trying to memorize the list would make nobody a better player.

Like I was saying, saying things that are universally true and saying things that are useful are, for the most parts, mutually exclusive. I think that WW's fundamental deck types is the exception which is both useful and also actually applies in every game, and you could probably take discussion about the deck types even further while still being both useful and universally true. But as soon as individual cards or specific situations enter the picture, it becomes impossible to discuss them in a meaningful way without making generalizations that aren't always true. And that's fine, because everyone knows that "it depends on the kingdom".
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #137 on: June 05, 2015, 01:08:23 pm »
0

...It's actually smuggling in advanced nuances too early that messes up learning the most.

Is this really true? Whenever I was taught something more simply and generally, then got to a higher level of education and learned that I actually hadn't learned the whole story and now had to unlearn/relearn things I already "knew", I found this to be quite bothersome and counterproductive.  For example, learning in high school chemistry that carbon always forms covalent bonds and sodium produces ionic bonds, then in college organic chemistry learning that well, actually, carbon can form ionic bonds in the right settings and electronegativity differences yield a spectrum of "covalency", etc.  It actually was quite difficult for me to get the black-and-white idea unlearned at first.

I try very hard to teach/answer as completely as possible regardless of the learner's prior experience, within reason.  I guess the devil is in what is "within reason".
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #138 on: June 05, 2015, 01:09:39 pm »
+1


Oh, and I hate Interstellar Casus Belli. Other take over cards you can play around, but that one is just silly. It simply breaks the game in 3P+ faster than you can say "Kingmaking".


You can just avoid military altogether, and it can be tough for the ICB player to produce the "seed" prestige needed to get it started.  Yes IMPERIUM Invasion Fleet does allow you to combo to take over any world, but that is pretty dang expensive and requires both cards to end up in your tableau and you have to be able to afford that in the first place.  My beef with Brink of War is that prestige and develop-spam are a bit too strong compared with previous expansions.

It's bad enough that ICB kills opportunistic military, but what it does to Contact Specialist is beyond words. You just can't play that card anymore.

I don't mind prestige as much as others, but it's true that it's very powerful. The real problem is that if two players go after it, whoever is not getting the bonus is in a pretty bad position.

...I wonder which of the two ongoing conversations is more off-topic.

Talking about Race for the Galaxy on a Dominion forum is definitely more off topic.  :)
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #139 on: June 05, 2015, 02:47:50 pm »
+2


This is a really important observation. When someone is new and/or stuck in a suboptimal habit, they need simple directions to a new playground, not elaborate minutiae. It's similar to someone struggling with basic high school math asking whether x*y equals y*x. The unequivocally correct answer is "yes, it does!". If someone would interferes by mumbling something about quaternions or matrix algebra, he doesn't deserve applause for being technically correct, he deserves to get kicked out of class.

Advice needs to be tailored to the specific needs of your audience, and in the case of Urchins I saw a lot of players from all levels making gross blunders that my simple prescription would mostly correct. It's silly to presume that this somehow holds people back. Teaching Newtonian gravity in highschool doesn't prevent students from learning General Relativity later; it's actually smuggling in advanced nuances too early that messes up learning the most.

As someone who has taught some advanced physics, the best case is telling the students that everything you learn in high school is a necessary approximation that will be explained later if needed. We teach stuff in a succession of ever more precise instructions in order to teach the students how to understand things.

What I dislike about your style is that gives players a fish - a lot of nicely distilled things they can do to better that play, but that doesn't do much to show them why the insight is true or how to figure out their own insights as well - i.e. how to fish. Particularly because most of the decisions made are things that aren't so obvious that you can just play 20 games and find them. When I'm teaching someone how Plutonium production works I don't want them to memorize the chain of decays, I want them to understand decays and be able to work with the concept in unfamiliar territory.

Of course if you really want to get good at dominion (as in have a high ranking) you don't bother reading the board at all - just go play more and then do an after action on the games you play to identify how things are playing out. Understanding the game, well that isn't a fast track to the top of the leader board, but it can be fun in its own right.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #140 on: June 05, 2015, 06:27:42 pm »
+2

Hey, can we pivot back to the cards we hate? I think things are getting a little too personal between Adam and SCSN, which is a real shame given what great contributions they've both made to the forum. Stopping to count to 10 would help.

That said, AdamH is completely correct...
About Shanty Town. Such a frustrating and unreliable card.

Other than that, the worst thing I can say about a card is that it's boring. Woodcutter might be the supreme example, given the presence of Market as a much more enjoyable +buy source.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #141 on: June 05, 2015, 06:39:29 pm »
0

I don't like Warehouse. It's super boring, no interesting choices, rarely adds something new to the board, yet is still a very good card so I have to buy it :(

I also don't like alchemists. I hate getting a chain going and then at the worst possible moment not drawing a potion. Also they don't do anything.

Oh, and hoard, I don't like hoard. It's yellow, and encourages you to buy green cards to get more yellow cards. Bleh.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #142 on: June 05, 2015, 08:50:17 pm »
0

Hey, can we pivot back to the cards we hate? I think things are getting a little too personal between Adam and SCSN, which is a real shame given what great contributions they've both made to the forum. Stopping to count to 10 would help.

That said, AdamH is completely correct...
About Shanty Town. Such a frustrating and unreliable card.

Other than that, the worst thing I can say about a card is that it's boring. Woodcutter might be the supreme example, given the presence of Market as a much more enjoyable +buy source.
You know, I think what Adam and SCNS have been saying has been building up for a while. I'm sure it'll pass, but they'll get all their anger out and be bros again. I would've worry about it, most people are enjoying the show but mostly focused on the cards that people hate.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #143 on: June 05, 2015, 08:51:07 pm »
0

I don't like Warehouse. It's super boring, no interesting choices, rarely adds something new to the board, yet is still a very good card so I have to buy it :(

I also don't like alchemists. I hate getting a chain going and then at the worst possible moment not drawing a potion. Also they don't do anything.

Oh, and hoard, I don't like hoard. It's yellow, and encourages you to buy green cards to get more yellow cards. Bleh.
I can see why you'd hate Warehouse and Hoard, I just didn't really expect anyone to. But I can totally see where you're coming from with Alchemist.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #144 on: June 06, 2015, 03:17:21 am »
+7

What I dislike about your style is that gives players a fish

Nope. I tell them of places I've found to contain lots of fish, and try to make them go there to practice catching. When they return and have questions about their experience, I'm always happy to provide feedback. If instead they are more interested in long treatises on the art of fishing, I'll have to refer them to Melville, who wrote much more brilliantly about the capture of aquatic creatures than I ever could.

Quote
but that doesn't do much to show them why the insight is true

I don't profess any special "insights" about Dominion and anyone who claims to do so is a charlatan. I know from experience what has and hasn't worked for me, and I'm happy to relay that information to others. People who make it more complicated than that are either fooling themselves ("insight hunting" is a common self-deception ploy that prevents people from taking action) or obfuscating things for the sake of arguing. If you play and experiment enough you'll start to see recurring patterns, those are the only "insights" worth having.

Quote
Of course if you really want to get good at dominion (as in have a high ranking) you don't bother reading the board at all - just go play more and then do an after action on the games you play to identify how things are playing out.

Personally I've learned quite a lot from using things I've read as starting points for experimentation, so reading the forum can definitely be valuable. I agree though that reading by itself won't make you much if any better, so don't let it be a substitute for deliberate practice.

I think things are getting a little too personal between Adam and SCSN, which is a real shame given what great contributions they've both made to the forum.

Oh no, I quite enjoy debates like this. Do you remember that television series where in stead of being in constant conflict the lead characters spend all day sitting on the sofa in silent agreement? Neither does anyone else!

I've disagreed with people in the past and will disagree with them in the future, c'est la vie.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #145 on: June 06, 2015, 06:15:02 am »
+3

Please stop this discussion already. Both SCSN and AdamH made good points and there's no need to keep on challenging or fortifying their positions. Arguments are being repeated and we're not getting anywhere further. Let them both contribute in their own ways to the strategic discussions. After all, when new players read a discussion with clashing opinions, this will probably stimulate more deliberate thinking about correct game play in specific situations, so that's a good thing.


Back to topic, has anyone else made the experience that Possession is more enjoyable in games IRL than online (which isn't hard since it's not enjoyable online at all), especially for more casual players? Those are unlikely to focus their strategy on getting lots of Possessions (or lots of anything) and thus when they play it once or twice, it's a a moment of special satisfaction to them while the person being possessed usually doesn't mind it that much if it's only for one turn.
Yes, it's still totally unbalanced in multiplayer, particularly with players of varying skill.
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werothegreat

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #146 on: June 06, 2015, 08:32:55 am »
0

Oh, is this argument still going?  I honestly stopped reading around page 2 when every post turned into an assertive wall of text.
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SCSN

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #147 on: June 06, 2015, 08:51:32 am »
+1

I just found something on the internet, and what it is will SHOCK you...

...a discussion board that has people discussing!
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #148 on: June 06, 2015, 09:02:32 am »
+2

Silver
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #149 on: June 06, 2015, 09:15:23 am »
+1

Seriously, there is no point dropping the discussion. I think this forum has enough meme threads that one more serious topic among them won't hurt. Just don't read it if you don't like to. But Adam brought up a legitimate concern that is not unimportant for this forum. I think it's great that we discuss this here.
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