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Author Topic: Cards you hate!  (Read 101726 times)

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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Writing styles you hate!
« Reply #100 on: June 04, 2015, 06:52:30 pm »
0

Could you... take this to its own thread?
Personally, I feel honored to have this discussion on a thread I started!
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JW

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #101 on: June 04, 2015, 06:53:08 pm »
+1

In the past year, I've gotten much better at Dominion. The main improvements I've made in my game have been looking at my decisions -- those "universal truths" I thought I knew about Dominion, and questioning them all. Trying to see if I could do better. And I have over 10 iso levels worth of improvement to show for it.

Most Dominion players under-value trashing. Except at the highest levels of the game, it's far more common for a player to focus too little on trashing than to focus too much on trashing. Consequently, most Dominion players undervalue Urchin and Mercenary; they buy too few early Urchins/other attacks, and thus on average they don’t get their first (or the usually desirable second) Mercenary early enough.

For example, in this game http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20150403/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1428083504568.txt I have bad luck early: despite opening quadruple Urchin, I don’t play my first Mercenary until turn 9. But my opponent only buys two Urchins on turns 2 and 3, plays an unfocused strategy, and does not gain Mercenary until late, so I am able to come back and build an Advisor-Festival-Peddler-Courtyard engine to win.

Most Dominion players would get better with Urchin if they started from the premise that you should prioritize getting two Mercenaries if you are getting it for the trashing. Colliding your Urchins early gives you a large advantage, and some people don’t like that, but knowing to prioritize getting two Mercenaries on many boards sets you well ahead of other people strategically, which makes up for a lot of bad luck.

Edit: Unless you are a really great Dominion player, if you are tempted to skip on Urchin #3 after already colliding, you should be aware that Urchin #3 is generally better than Silver here, and most Dominion players incorrectly buy Silver way too often in this situation. A typical level 20 player who changes to always buy Urchin here will have improved their Urchin play substantially.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 07:48:03 pm by JW »
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Awaclus

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #102 on: June 04, 2015, 07:05:09 pm »
+1

Actually, I would rather say that all high-level Dominion advice necessarily has to be either vague enough that it's entirely useless or "wrong".

Well then that's a pretty sad state of strategic discussion. There's plenty of middle ground between "It depends on the board" and blanket statements. We can say "Wharf is good" and still acknowledge that it's not always the best card and discuss when those exceptions might occur.

"It depends on the board" is a blanket statement.

Sure, we can say "Wharf is good", but that's entirely useless. Saying that Wharf is good doesn't tell anyone how to play games with Wharf in them. "Whenever Wharf is on the board, you want to win the Wharf split" is not always true, but it's much more useful.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #103 on: June 04, 2015, 07:07:23 pm »
0

Oh man, I didn't know PS's artwork concept was based on a fanmade !
Well, all in all it doesn't change much, though I hope the original auther got his name somewhere in the credits.

Okay, on to the cards I hate :
Most obvious : Black Market
Also obvious because swingy because top of deck : Swindler - Jester - Saboteur. I didn't play yet much with new trashings attacks from DA but it may come.
Also obvious because swingy too : Familliar
Boring because self-centered :
Minion. You just try to collect and play the most of them then leaves opponents with 4-cards hand... here's an Hearthstone joke : I hate this Warlock "strategy" -
Ill-Gotten gains. Lol, curse curse copper curse !
Situational : Torturer in 3+player games (I love it in 2P games !) ; Rats, just to troll DXV, because it is just useless most of the time according to me. You have to get some benefit of trashing to get any benefit from rats !

And I didn't play a single game with Rebuild yet (I restarted playing yesterday, I'm trying to purchase the 450 gokoins for the mega pack but I always get rejected)

Cards I'd kill before their birth :
The female traveller chain (with Warrior and Champion because of Warrior's swingyness and because of the boredom of Champion) http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Traveller
Hireling
It's funny to know that they're both permanent duration cards.
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AdamH

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #104 on: June 04, 2015, 07:09:46 pm »
+5

There seems to be a misconception that I think getting two Mercenaries is wrong. I never said that. I said that when you collide Urchins on T3, that sometimes you can do better than picking up Urchin number 3 by building your engine, but this highly depends on the board.

I objected to when SCSN said that it's basically always the case that you still want Urchin number 3 here, and that the main exception to this was when you were only going for Mercenary for the discard attack. I think in this situation it's best to look at the board and not make a unilateral decision based on what someone else said.

I'd like to know what I said that made this unclear. I can't find anything.

I think it's pretty clear that when you don't collide Urchins on T3 that you should probably just pick up your third Urchin then, and in most of these cases, you're going to at least need two Mercenaries to try and play catch-up, since at that point you're behind on thinning. I don't think there's any disagreement on this point.

It can be a bit frustrating to put so much care into what I type, have it be perfectly clear to me, and have people misunderstand me to the point where they think I'm saying something completely different than what I am; all while SCSN can just spout out whatever he wants, saying it so carelessly that it can be inaccurate and even misleading, but people seem to just understand it and praise him for it because he's 14 ranks higher on the leaderboard than I am.

When I post about Dominion I usually hold my tongue unless I feel like I know what I'm talking about (except when I'm asking for help) so that this exact situation doesn't come up. Whenever anyone challenges me (heck, whenever someone opens differently than me or plays a different strategy on a board, regardless of rating) I always question my own beliefs and make sure I'm not missing something or mistaken. I wish more people around here would do the same and/or appreciate it when that happens.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #105 on: June 04, 2015, 07:36:06 pm »
+5

It's refreshing to see such a lively discussion in this forum about Dominion, of all things.  Spectacular! ;D
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Voltaire

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #106 on: June 04, 2015, 07:37:24 pm »
+1

but people seem to just understand it and praise him for it because he's 14 ranks higher on the leaderboard than I am.

Don't worry, it's clear that idea was roundly mocked.
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Flip5ide

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #107 on: June 04, 2015, 07:43:37 pm »
0

Usually-boring cards (or cards that slow the game down) like Mandarin, Mint, Silk Road, and Hamlet... and cards that usually just take up space like Treasure Map and Scout.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #108 on: June 04, 2015, 07:48:17 pm »
+2

but people seem to just understand it and praise him for it because he's 14 ranks higher on the leaderboard than I am.

Don't worry, it's clear that idea was roundly mocked.

I find it's very liberating not to be on the leaderboard at all. How good at Dominion am I? Beats me!
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #109 on: June 04, 2015, 07:49:22 pm »
+9

I find it's very liberating not to be on the leaderboard at all. How good at Dominion am I? Beats me!

I'm going to ruin your day! You're quite good!
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JW

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #110 on: June 04, 2015, 08:36:03 pm »
+1

"It depends on the board" is a blanket statement.

Sure, we can say "Wharf is good", but that's entirely useless. Saying that Wharf is good doesn't tell anyone how to play games with Wharf in them. "Whenever Wharf is on the board, you want to win the Wharf split" is not always true, but it's much more useful.

That advice is too simplified, though, because it will frequently lead people far astray. Winning the Wharf split is only likely to be important on a board where there's a way to play at least 3 Wharfs in a turn (Necropolis alone wouldn't be sufficient).

Edit: The way I'd say it is: Wharf is a strong card. If it is possible to play at least 3 Wharfs in a turn, it might be important to win the Wharf split. If you can only play 2 Wharfs in a turn, it's unlikely to be important to win the Wharf split. If over 50 games with Wharf you gain it in under two-thirds of the games, you're probably not getting it enough (the threshold for "buying Wharf enough" depends on the sample size, of course).
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 08:53:17 pm by JW »
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liopoil

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #111 on: June 04, 2015, 08:39:15 pm »
0

Winning the Wharf split is only likely to be important on a board where there's a way to play at least 3 Wharfs in a turn (Necropolis alone wouldn't be sufficient).
But crossroads is? The thing is you have to choose how precise you want to be, because there is an edge case to everything. Encompassing all edge cases is pointless, but surely you want to include the less edgy ones? So the question is where you draw the line, and depending on the strength of the player, what Awaclus said is fine.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #112 on: June 04, 2015, 09:02:38 pm »
0

but people seem to just understand it and praise him for it because he's 14 ranks higher on the leaderboard than I am.

Don't worry, it's clear that idea was roundly mocked.

I find it's very liberating not to be on the leaderboard at all. How good at Dominion am I? Beats me!
I don't even know what this leaderboard that you speak of is, but I think I'm alright at Dominion.
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Seprix

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #113 on: June 04, 2015, 09:21:49 pm »
0

People aren't idiots. If there isn't actions to be played, they won't over terminal on Wharves.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #114 on: June 05, 2015, 12:07:30 am »
+3

I find it's very liberating not to be on the leaderboard at all. How good at Dominion am I? Beats me!

I'm going to ruin your day! You're quite good!

Well, that beats ruining my day by telling me I'm terrible. :))
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swedenman

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #115 on: June 05, 2015, 12:59:45 am »
+1

Actually, I would rather say that all high-level Dominion advice necessarily has to be either vague enough that it's entirely useless or "wrong".

Well then that's a pretty sad state of strategic discussion. There's plenty of middle ground between "It depends on the board" and blanket statements. We can say "Wharf is good" and still acknowledge that it's not always the best card and discuss when those exceptions might occur.

"It depends on the board" is a blanket statement.

Sure, we can say "Wharf is good", but that's entirely useless. Saying that Wharf is good doesn't tell anyone how to play games with Wharf in them. "Whenever Wharf is on the board, you want to win the Wharf split" is not always true, but it's much more useful.

Yes, because clearly I was suggesting we change the Wharf article to literally "Wharf is good". Of course it's pretty useless if that's all you say about it. But I think statements like the one you said can be pretty harmful. I'd much rather read about WHEN it's important to win the Wharf split. What needs to be true about the board for winning the Wharf split to be less essential? And if you don't have time to get into that, then at least qualify your statement with a "usually" or something along those lines so beginners don't read it and start playing robotically by that guideline. Sure, expert players won't take it that way, but then again expert players probably aren't the ones who need to be told that winning the Wharf split is generally important.
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pacovf

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #116 on: June 05, 2015, 01:31:30 am »
+4

It's refreshing to see such a lively discussion in this forum about Dominion, of all things.  Spectacular! ;D

It's not really a discussion about Dominion, it's a discussion about discussion about Dominion...
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SCSN

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #117 on: June 05, 2015, 01:41:06 am »
+7

It's so easy to type these things because they're short

Had I had more time and greater skill in writing, my posts would have been much shorter still.

Quote
Even if what you're saying is right, it can decrease the tendency of others to think about boards for themselves

Few posters encourage experimentation as much as I do. In fact my style's main purpose is to maximize the probability of people actually going out and experiment, while minimizing the incidence of protracted pedantry.

Quote
which is so easily remedied by you just giving reasons for what you're saying!

That's what I thought for a long time but it turns out that handing out the reasoning upfront discourages experimentation. I guess this is either because it provides the illusion of understanding (like having looked up the answer at the back of the book makes you far less likely to work through the exercise) and/or puts people into arguing mode ("Here is reason, must find exception!"). If someone is done experimenting and still has questions I'm always more than happy to elaborate, but very often they've seen and understood by themselves at that point, which is how it should be, as figuring stuff out on your own is so much more rewarding :)

It can be a bit frustrating to put so much care into what I type, have it be perfectly clear to me, and have people misunderstand me to the point where they think I'm saying something completely different than what I am; all while SCSN can just spout out whatever he wants, saying it so carelessly that it can be inaccurate and even misleading, but people seem to just understand it and praise him for it because he's 14 ranks higher on the leaderboard than I am.

Yah, I'm sure people appreciate my posts just because of my rating, just like people appreciate your videos more than mine because... hmm, now that doesn't make much sense, does it? Maybe... nah, that would be too obvious. Well, hmm... okay, maybe you're just a better video creator and I'm a better writer!

I happen to be very well-versed in classical rhetoric and have spent an inordinate amount of time deliberately honing my writing skills. What you mistake for carelesness on my part is simply the apparent randomness with which a concert pianist smashes his hands on the keys and magically produces widely appreciated tones. It can be a quite frustrating experience indeed if you're up next and don't actually know anything about harmony!

Quote
I'd like to know what I said that made this unclear. I can't find anything.

Here you go: A fundamental observation underlying rhetoric is that people respond much stronger to the structure of an argument than to its content. Since my position is crystal-clear and you're rather violently arguing against it, they're going to subconsciously assume that you disagree with it to the core (you wouldn't throw a big fit over, say, the precise frequency of "almost always", after all). The only way to bring across a nuanced point is to tone down the anger and frustration, actually state your general agreement with my position, and then say that you just want to add a basic caveat. When you try to present a nuanced point with a strong stance you're bound to fail, as when tone and content are incongruent, tone takes priority and content will be distorted.

You can argue that it shouldn't be like that, but then you'd be like the captain of the military ship approaching a lighthouse who angrily commands it to move out of the way. Reality is not going anywhere; either master its rules or keep feeling like a victim of forces that only appear to be outside of your control. A wise man once coined an applicable acronym: YMYOSL ;)
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #118 on: June 05, 2015, 01:47:44 am »
0

I happen to be very well-versed in classical rhetoric and have spent an inordinate amount of time deliberately honing my writing skills. What you mistake for carelesness on my part is simply the apparent randomness with which a concert pianist smashes his hands on the keys and magically produces widely appreciated tones. It can be a quite frustrating experience indeed if you're up next and don't actually know anything about harmony!

Except that purely on the basis of rhetoric (hopefully not, but probably) AdamH is much more convincing to me.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #119 on: June 05, 2015, 01:48:38 am »
0

You can argue that it shouldn't be like that, but then you'd be like the captain of the military ship approaching a lighthouse who angrily commands it to move out of the way. Reality is not going anywhere; either master its rules or keep feeling like a victim of forces that only appear to be outside of your control. A wise man once coined an applicable acronym: YMYOSL ;)

A lighthouse can't move. People can.
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pubby

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #120 on: June 05, 2015, 02:04:13 am »
0

Quote
I happen to be very well-versed in classical rhetoric and have spent an inordinate amount of time deliberately honing my writing skills. What you mistake for carelesness on my part is simply the apparent randomness with which a concert pianist smashes his hands on the keys and magically produces widely appreciated tones. It can be a quite frustrating experience indeed if you're up next and don't actually know anything about harmony!

Here you go: A fundamental observation underlying rhetoric is that people respond much stronger to the structure of an argument than to its content. Since my position is crystal-clear and you're rather violently arguing against it, they're going to subconsciously assume that you disagree with it to the core (you wouldn't throw a big fit over, say, the precise frequency of "almost always", after all). The only way to bring across a nuanced point is to tone down the anger and frustration, actually state your general agreement with my position, and then say that you just want to add a basic caveat. When you try to present a nuanced point with a strong stance you're bound to fail, as when tone and content are incongruent, tone takes priority and content will be distorted.

Is this satire?
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #121 on: June 05, 2015, 02:24:50 am »
0

Quote
I happen to be very well-versed in classical rhetoric and have spent an inordinate amount of time deliberately honing my writing skills. What you mistake for carelesness on my part is simply the apparent randomness with which a concert pianist smashes his hands on the keys and magically produces widely appreciated tones. It can be a quite frustrating experience indeed if you're up next and don't actually know anything about harmony!

Here you go: A fundamental observation underlying rhetoric is that people respond much stronger to the structure of an argument than to its content. Since my position is crystal-clear and you're rather violently arguing against it, they're going to subconsciously assume that you disagree with it to the core (you wouldn't throw a big fit over, say, the precise frequency of "almost always", after all). The only way to bring across a nuanced point is to tone down the anger and frustration, actually state your general agreement with my position, and then say that you just want to add a basic caveat. When you try to present a nuanced point with a strong stance you're bound to fail, as when tone and content are incongruent, tone takes priority and content will be distorted.

Is this satire?

I'm pretty sure the second part isn't - I've heard that argument a lot. I still think it's better to assume the best of your listeners (especially since people tend to never change their minds)
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SCSN

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #122 on: June 05, 2015, 02:30:29 am »
0

I happen to be very well-versed in classical rhetoric and have spent an inordinate amount of time deliberately honing my writing skills. What you mistake for carelesness on my part is simply the apparent randomness with which a concert pianist smashes his hands on the keys and magically produces widely appreciated tones. It can be a quite frustrating experience indeed if you're up next and don't actually know anything about harmony!

Except that purely on the basis of rhetoric (hopefully not, but probably) AdamH is much more convincing to me.

Rhetoric isn't necessarily about convincing people, it's usually about persuading them to take action, which while superifically similar are in practice often wildly different things. One of the things I've noticed is that clear directions are much more likely to be followed up on than endlessly hedged thoughts. Part of it is that it stands out much more, so that when you find yourself in a situation where it might be applicable it easily springs to mind.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #123 on: June 05, 2015, 02:40:41 am »
0

Overall, that does make sense (I will remember that taking a third urchin is a good idea), but I think being good at making an argument but not being good at provoking action doesn't really deserve the piano metaphor you give. I think it would be more like you're rock, with less logic and more action than Adam's classical. Do you think that's fair?
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SCSN

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #124 on: June 05, 2015, 03:13:34 am »
+3

I can't say no.
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