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Author Topic: Cards you hate!  (Read 101513 times)

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theJester

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #75 on: June 04, 2015, 08:39:49 am »
0

Top 3:

Possession - for it ruins what I consider to be in the heart of Dominion: build your own deck and use it to win the game. Suggested methods for dealing with it (junk up your deck) often take away from enjoyability of the game.

Cultist - pseudo-combines 2 powerful $5 cards (Lab and Witch) into one and then adds on-trash benefit. Sometimes absurdly powerful, sometimes less so, but enough to cause majority of the boards it appears in to turn into cultist races.

Torturer - anyone who likes this card probably hasn't seen how efficiently can it kill multiplayer game. One such was first and only time I've ever come close to rage-quitting in Dominion.

Honorable mentions:

Familiar - way too swingy for how powerful it is. No other curser can lead to 10-0 and 9-1 curse splits in mirror games.

Smugglers - this is my personal pet peeve. While objectively not a top $3 card, I just dislike an idea of piggybacking on your opponent's purchase to build up your own deck (similar objection to Possession). Its interaction with Grand Market is especially jarring.


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AdamH

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #76 on: June 04, 2015, 09:05:03 am »
+6

This is really uncalled for.

If you say things that are incorrect, it's not uncalled for to correct you.

As you can see from the replies in this thread, people take your high iso rating and will blindly follow everything you say, no matter what it is. If you say things that are misleading, it's not uncalled for to clarify what you're saying.

In general, you say things in "SCSN language" (I didn't make that up, I think I saw it in a stream chat once) which IMO is misleading. I bolded the things I think are incorrect and/or misleading in your post in case it wasn't clear from my first post.

Two Mercenaries are simply mandatory, and getting two should be your top priority whenever you want one at all.

One of the biggest recurring mistakes I see is people not buying a 3rd Urchin after connecting on T3 or 4. The purpose of the 3rd Urchin is not to speed up the time of your first connection, but to get to a deck containing two Mercs as quickly as possible.

Pretty much the only exception to this is if you already trashed down with e.g. Chapel and only use the Mercenary for its discard attack.

As is the case with almost everything that comes out of SCSN's mouth and/or keyboard, I really don't think you should take this seriously.

I stand behind the veracity of the quoted post. I still see mid- to high-level players grossly blundering in this area on a somewhat regular basis, and one really should be able to count the times one has deviated from its prescription on a single hand.

Note that I did not say to always get a third Urchin, I said to make two Mercs your top priority; whether you do that via 3 Urchins or 2 Urchins and a Militia doesn't matter much. And the exception of only using Merc for its discard attack was even covered in the post itself.

Your "grossly blundering" comment I think is just wrong. I don't see how you can't even recognize that it depends on the kingdom, and it's ridiculous to say that people shouldn't deviate from it.

You can say "I think getting three Urchins is better than people give it credit for" or you can say "I think getting a third Urchin, even after colliding Mercenaries can be good in some cases (like X) because of Y, but not when Z" or you could say "Getting only two Urchins is always a gross misplay and anyone who does that is an idiot." Two of those I would take seriously, and the other I would call out as being misleading. You didn't say the third one but really, how far away from it were you? Much closer than the other two.

With great power comes great responsibility. People listen to you, whether they should or not, no matter how wrong what you say is. I really wish you would choose your words more carefully.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #77 on: June 04, 2015, 09:37:01 am »
+11

I used TheExpressicist's player stats tool (http://www.2pih.com/cardAnalyzer.php) to look up "Average # You Bought" for Mercenary. I don't know if this stat is conditional on gaining at least 1 Merc, or if it includes 0 Merc games as well. There's clearly some bug in how the tool is counting the total # of Mercenary games because it's lower than the number of Urchin games. So the gain % stuff is messed up for sure, and possibly this average card stuff as well. With that caveat, here are the numbers:

SCSN - 2.1
Adam - 2.1
Mic Qsenoch - 1.8
Stef - 1.5
Gherald - 1.3

Everybody's win % with Merc looked fine (relative to their average win %). Of course these don't say too much other than Adam loves his second Merc even if he won't admit it :P.  Anyway, I think there's some wiggle room in the # of Mercenaries you get and I don't think SCSN's (and apparently Adam's!) 2 Mercs 4 ever position is necessary to play the card well. But I definitely believe it's the correct starting point for learning about the card.

I take serious issue with Adam's claim "As is the case with almost everything that comes out of SCSN's mouth and/or keyboard, I really don't think you should take this seriously." There's no reason to include the "almost".


That last bit was a joke to be clear. I find SCSN's posts to be extraordinarily useful, not because he's always right (he very often is!), but because the position is clear and gives a strong starting point for thinking about the decision and testing things out.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 09:48:47 am by Mic Qsenoch »
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #78 on: June 04, 2015, 10:27:44 am »
+12

The quoted post by SCSN has made me a better Urchin/Mercenary player. Prior to reading it, I would almost always get one Mercenary. I tried out his advice and found it to be sound. Now I will usually get two Mercenaries unless I feel there's a good reason not to.

Take all strategy advice with a grain of salt, even from top players. If a player can't think for his/herself and takes everything high-level players say as gospel, that's not the kind of person who's ever going to become a high-level player anyway.
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Voltaire

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #79 on: June 04, 2015, 12:09:20 pm »
+6

That's the one with the douchebag creator who ripped off a Dominion fan's artwork, right?

Yes.

For those who aren't aware:

Fan-made Dominion chip set (first):


Puzzle Strike (second):
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SCSN

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #80 on: June 04, 2015, 02:44:12 pm »
+7

[...]

The main thing you're not getting is that I don't write to be pedantically correct; I write to be approximately right and ruthlessly effective.

While I could have made any of the stale statements you proposed, they are entirely comprised of uninspiring dross that accomplishes nothing.

It's incredibly easy to blurt out this forum's favorite cliché, append a creamed serving of stock phrases topped with an edge case or two and have the community nod its bored head in soporific agreement.

Consider how difficult it is in comparison to state something that is almost board-invariant (and thus actually useful to know!), non-trivial, largely unknown, helpful to a wide range of players and written in such a way that it takes people by surprise, makes them incredulous, maybe even balk at the idea, but still inspires eagerness to try it out?

It's precisely this latter objective that my posts are designed to fulfill. If they strike you as simplistic that's only because you overlook these inner workings. I challenge you to try out this "SCSN language" for yourself. I'll predict in advance that in stead of coming up with posts that are

extraordinarily useful [...] because the position is clear and gives a strong starting point for thinking about the decision and testing things out[,]

you'll fall prey to caricatural hyperbole.

In the end I don't mind people hating my writing, but there's no point in denying its effectiveness. You've yourself experienced more than once the sudden urge to play a certain board in response to something I wrote. And it's exactly the invocation of this sudden desire to play, the inspiration to experiment, the willingness to be surprised or the drive to prove someone wrong that constitute the highest achievement a simple strategy post can possibly attain.

The quoted post by SCSN has made me a better Urchin/Mercenary player. Prior to reading it, I would almost always get one Mercenary. I tried out his advice [...]

Few things delight me more than reading this!
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #81 on: June 04, 2015, 02:51:16 pm »
+4

I think it is at least clear that everyone else on the forums is less skilled at using words like soporific and dross.
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Seprix

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #82 on: June 04, 2015, 02:57:57 pm »
0

I think it is at least clear that everyone else on the forums is less skilled at using words like soporific and dross.

Guess I'm not everyone else. :p

As long as you're not a total ass, I think you should be able to say what you like.
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swedenman

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #83 on: June 04, 2015, 03:10:09 pm »
+1

That's the one with the douchebag creator who ripped off a Dominion fan's artwork, right?

Yes.

For those who aren't aware:

Fan-made Dominion chip set (first):


Puzzle Strike (second):


Well yes, but this complaint is pretty tiresome by now. David Sirlin is unquestionably a douchebag (I mean, the man re-balanced chess, for Christ's sake), but he's also extremely intelligent and Yomi and Puzzle Strike are both incredibly well-balanced games. I got bored of PS, as I said, but if it had been popular enough to get 8 expansions I'd probably like it more than Dominion, tbh.

Also, while it is more satisfying to hold cards in your hand, the chips are super convenient.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 03:17:00 pm by swedenman »
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #84 on: June 04, 2015, 03:18:19 pm »
+1

SCSN is the player f.ds deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we will edge case him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero.
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AdamH

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #85 on: June 04, 2015, 03:27:31 pm »
+1

The main thing you're not getting is that I don't write to be pedantically correct; I write to be approximately right and ruthlessly effective.

This works pretty well when playing Dominion (even though you can do much better). It's actually destructive when talking about Dominion. You aren't playing Dominion when you post on these forums, you're talking about Dominion.

While I could have made any of the stale statements you proposed, they are entirely comprised of uninspiring dross that accomplishes nothing.

It's incredibly easy to blurt out this forum's favorite cliché, append a creamed serving of stock phrases topped with an edge case or two and have the community nod its bored head in soporific agreement.

Consider how difficult it is in comparison to state something that is almost board-invariant (and thus actually useful to know!), non-trivial, largely unknown, helpful to a wide range of players and written in such a way that it takes people by surprise, makes them incredulous, maybe even balk at the idea, but still inspires eagerness to try it out?

It's precisely this latter objective that my posts are designed to fulfill. If they strike you as simplistic that's only because you overlook these inner workings. I challenge you to try out this "SCSN language" for yourself. I'll predict in advance that in stead of coming up with posts that are

extraordinarily useful [...] because the position is clear and gives a strong starting point for thinking about the decision and testing things out[,]

you'll fall prey to caricatural hyperbole.

You can call my statements stale and you can find the discussion that happens a lot around here boring, but at least it's correct and productive, unlike most "SCSN language". Maybe people like MQ feel comfortable challenging you, and I'm starting to build up the courage after several months, but these aren't the kind of people who are going to benefit from your writing. These are the kind of people who don't need your advice because they can look at it and tell that it's not to be taken seriously. So in the best case it's "not actively harmful".

But this thread proves that when you say something with such certainty, people will follow you. If you say something that's wrong, it's actively harmful. Even if what you're saying is right, it can decrease the tendency of others to think about boards for themselves, which is so easily remedied by you just giving reasons for what you're saying! For every person you help, you're actively hurting at least 55 other people! (see what I did there?)

If you find this boring, well I suggest you deal with it and stop writing things that are actively harmful. It's so easy to type these things because they're short, and it's so easy to think that they're universally true and just apply them to your game no matter what, and even in some cases people may be helped by it, and some people will press the +1 button. But that doesn't make you right.

In the end I don't mind people hating my writing, but there's no point in denying its effectiveness.

I'm denying its effectiveness. If you just take the time to actually say something that's correct and constructive, you could do so much better.

In the past year, I've gotten much better at Dominion. The main improvements I've made in my game have been looking at my decisions -- those "univeral truths" I thought I knew about Dominion, and questioning them all. Trying to see if I could do better. And I have over 10 iso levels worth of improvement to show for it.

You've yourself experienced more than once the sudden urge to play a certain board in response to something I wrote. And it's exactly the invocation of this sudden desire to play, the inspiration to experiment, the willingness to be surprised or the drive to prove someone wrong that constitute the highest achievement a simple strategy post can possibly attain.

The quoted post by SCSN has made me a better Urchin/Mercenary player. Prior to reading it, I would almost always get one Mercenary. I tried out his advice [...]

Few things delight me more than reading this!

This is a testament to LF's ability to see through what you say and get to what you mean. Do you have any idea how difficult you make that?

I guess it doesn't matter, you're going to keep being yourself. All I can do is continue to disagree with you when you say things I think are wrong. I just really wish you would be more constructive and open-minded instead of dismissive, and I find it irritating that you claim that your dismissive tone is supposed to generate discussion. You're taking credit away from the people who are actually generating discussion.
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werothegreat

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #86 on: June 04, 2015, 03:31:13 pm »
+5

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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #87 on: June 04, 2015, 03:47:08 pm »
+8

The ruined lives SCSN has left in his wake as he wrote strong opinions about Dominion on the internet, I shudder to think of those poor souls.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #88 on: June 04, 2015, 03:49:03 pm »
+3

The ruined lives SCSN has left in his wake as he wrote strong opinions about Dominion on the internet, I shudder to think of those poor souls.
Well, both Adam and SCSN have very good points. SCSN is an amazing Dominion player, has so much experience, etc. However, I do agree with Adam for the most part and I'd just like to add that sarcasm really can't be seen over the Internet.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #89 on: June 04, 2015, 03:53:16 pm »
+1

I hate cards that are usually bad but get bought by casual players anyway and kill and eviscerate the fun of the game. Classic examples are Spy and Saboteur, and there's a big difference between online and RL games here;
When multiple Spies are played online, it's mildly annoying and doesn't happen often anyway. IRL, inexperienced players ALWAYS buy Spy which makes games unnecessarily tedious. There's also always someone who plays Saboteurs constantly and doesn't do much otherwise, besides making everyone else miserable.

Interestingly, I found that with Possession, rather the opposite is the case. In online games, you sit there, watch your cards being played by someone, and wait even longer than normal until its finally your turn again. With good players, it's often forcing one of them into resigning eventually. I used to hate this card before I played it IRL. It's so - much - fun to grin at your friends' grumpy faces when you take their cards and go nuts with them. New players usually don't mind being possessed occasionally(!), because it's fun player interaction. Also, it doesn't hurt them that much because they tend to have weaker decks anyway.
Possession is a great card for casual players with personal contact, but should be banned from online games.

What's more, Rebuild of course. I almost always skip it when I use my Dark Ages randomizer deck. Cultist isn't much better, and a really bad experience for new players as they might start to think that Dominion is just about playing that one powerful card over and over, or otherwise getting crushed.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #90 on: June 04, 2015, 03:56:41 pm »
0

What is with all the Cultist hate?  Cultist is fun.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #91 on: June 04, 2015, 04:13:14 pm »
0

Saboteur became my favorite card for one game last night. I so how had hit Platinum early in what amounted to a big money game. So he kept pulling my silvers and other various junk making it easier to draw my platinum.

I hate Minions more then Cultist. About the only time I love to see a Minion is late game when I draw 4 VP and a Lonely Coin.  Then they attack and I pull 2Minions of my own and various other cards.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 04:16:49 pm by doesitgoboom »
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Asper

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #92 on: June 04, 2015, 04:18:50 pm »
0

I remember my first game with Possession: We just got Alchemy and i built an Alchemist stack. Just as i pieced it together i got possessed. Having not seen that coming, i was utterly enraged. Still i don't hate Possession. I shy to play Alchemists against it, though.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #93 on: June 04, 2015, 04:24:17 pm »
+3

If you say something that's wrong, it's actively harmful.

I don't think so. Actually, I would rather say that all high-level Dominion advice necessarily has to be either vague enough that it's entirely useless or "wrong". The kind of advice that is "wrong" might not be something that you follow to the letter in every game, but it is something that helps you approach the game in a way that will improve your performance even when you're not following the advice. Of course, there's also advice that's both wrong and bad, but I don't think saying that you always want a third Urchin is harmful at all.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #94 on: June 04, 2015, 04:57:42 pm »
+4

Chiming in to the off-topic controversy about Adam and SCSN:

I came to this forum as a total noob, trying to learn a bit about Dominion. I've been skimming to a lot of the articles and the short advice threads and I encountered the Mercenary post aswell (before knowing it came from a world champion even! ;)) and I think it made me better with that card. I agree that it is not optimal to buy three urchins/2mercs every game but it is a lot better for a beginner than what I and most likely other beginners did. I have now gotten to the point that I got a broad idea of how to play this game that I might deviate sometimes from this general advice (more or less successfully), but that comes from playing the game a lot. I think any player who wants to become good at the game isn't hurt by this "SCSN language" advice, because when he gets better at the game, he starts questioning the dominion Gods anyway, regardless how the advice was written in the first place. I'd even say that this way it is even easier, because an answer like "depends on the board" doesn't help when you have no idea how to play the game.

Adam, you are obviously a lot better and you shouldn't follow these strict tips anymore, but that doesn't mean others can not profit from it. (Seriously, I already thought I was quite smart when thinking of an Urchin/Urchin opening; such tips lead to better gameplay than just random card buying by beginners)
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Deadlock39

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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #95 on: June 04, 2015, 04:59:33 pm »
+3

I would rather say that all high-level Dominion advice necessarily has to be either vague enough that it's entirely useless or "wrong".

I feel like this battle is fought too much around here. Endless amounts of advice that is generally useful is torn down because it is "wrong" or "a beginner will use it incorrectly". I think would be better discuss the exceptions to otherwise good advice without saying it is wrong. I see a lot of good advice met with "you can't/shouldn't say that because <3 card combo>, <4 card combo>, and <1/1000 edge case>" Discussing the exceptions is worthwhile, but everything has an edge case and everything depends on the board, and that doesn't make general advice bad.

I do think SCSN's posts could use a bit more acknowledgement of the existence of exceptions, but it is probably easier to talk about the situations where his advice isn't the best choice than talk him into writing in a style other than the one he likes.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 05:00:47 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #96 on: June 04, 2015, 05:09:44 pm »
+3

Long post re SCSN

I dealt with a very similar phenomenon in medical training.  It is highly frustrating when people who are your mentors or just generally have much more experience/expertise than you do have the ability to backhandedly dismiss everything you say because it takes such a high level of understanding to even engage in collegial discourse.  Moreover, there is usually quite a power gradient set up that makes it extremely frightening for the novice to even question the person with higher authority, which can lead to learned helplessness and eventually just giving up.  I usually refer to this as "bully teaching"--there's probably a real pedagogical term for this.

Therefore I've been known to tell med students and residents that the goal of all medical education is to get you to the point where you'll look your attending right in the eye and tell him to go fuck off.  The reason for this crazy statement is that it requires a very high degree of mastery to not only know something but to KNOW that you know it so you can confidently put yourself at risk.

Personally, I feel that "bully teaching" is absolutely unacceptable, lousy, and rotten.  HOWEVER, it does certainly push the student along the learning curve very quickly and weeds out those of lesser fortitude.  There must exist people who actually prefer such tutelage.

I've never gotten the perception that SCSN does anything really like this, especially from the high-quality lessons with Jerni.  I find the caustic tone of his posts humorous and more often than not the advice given is excellent.  I also really love your videos, Adam, and use words like "amaze-balls" and "for funsies" all the time now  ;D  And even if novices followed his advice blindly and started always buying 3 urchins, would their play actually get worse?  Probably not, and even if so they are on their way to becoming better Dominion players by exploring a new area of the strategic space.

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Asper

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Re: Writing styles you hate!
« Reply #97 on: June 04, 2015, 05:37:22 pm »
+3

Could you... take this to its own thread?
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #98 on: June 04, 2015, 06:30:14 pm »
+1

Actually, I would rather say that all high-level Dominion advice necessarily has to be either vague enough that it's entirely useless or "wrong".

Well then that's a pretty sad state of strategic discussion. There's plenty of middle ground between "It depends on the board" and blanket statements. We can say "Wharf is good" and still acknowledge that it's not always the best card and discuss when those exceptions might occur.
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Re: Cards you hate!
« Reply #99 on: June 04, 2015, 06:45:01 pm »
+3

You can call my statements stale and you can find the discussion that happens a lot around here boring, but at least it's correct and productive, unlike most "SCSN language". Maybe people like MQ feel comfortable challenging you, and I'm starting to build up the courage after several months, but these aren't the kind of people who are going to benefit from your writing. These are the kind of people who don't need your advice because they can look at it and tell that it's not to be taken seriously. So in the best case it's "not actively harmful".

For those that have trouble understanding what Adam is quoting here, I think he meant 'unlike most "SCSN language."' and 'it's "not actively harmful.",' respectively.

Oh, and I hate Interstellar Casus Belli. Other take over cards you can play around, but that one is just silly. It simply breaks the game in 3P+ faster than you can say "Kingmaking".

EDIT: oh noes inconsistencies!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 06:51:09 pm by pacovf »
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pacovf has a neopets account.  It has 999 hours logged.  All his neopets are named "Jessica".  I guess that must be his ex.
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