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[xyz123]

I don't like Governor or Minion as their different options self-synergise into a single card strategy.

The third card I don't like is Black Market as I find it can give game changing levels of luck if someone is able to pull out a card with the properties the board is crying out for.

[werothegreat]

The problem is that TH and Hero are not really cards that you'd really buy on their own outside of a Feodum game.

Really? You never buy Silver gainers outside of a Feodum game? Not with Duke? Not with Gardens?

And you wouldn't want Hero with Platinum available? Would high-quality payload gum up your engine too much?

Eh.  Okay, let me rephrase - they're definitely more niche than the Peasant upgrades.  There're times they're good, but except for Warrior, they're not cards that you'd insta-buy.

Chancellor isn't weak.  Insta-shuffle is a thumbs up in my book.  It's just that it's weak relative to other $3 terminals.  If my $4 is non-terminal and there's nothing better at $3, I'm opening Chancellor.  I'd wager Magpie/Chancellor is a stronger opening than Magpie/Silver.  Chancellor will probably also go well with Page.  I'd say Chancellor is better than Woodcutter, and usually better than Fortune Teller.  I think the reason why it's thought of so poorly is that most new players are just so confused by it.

Haven - fuck this shitty little piece of shit stupid shitty...

So basically what you said is that it's weak compared to other $3 terminals AND that you don't want it if there are decent $4 terminals? I don't see how this is a point against Chancellor being weak. Either way, i'm not saying Chancellor is the weakest card in Dominion. It's better than Scout or Adventurer at the very least (discussion starting... now). I've often pointed out how nicely Chancellor supports Potions, too. It's just a card that you have to take a good look at to judge whether it's worth it, and that's something i like.

Really, Haven? It's actually my favourite Duration

There are a lot of strong $3 terminals - Ambassador, Hermit, Masquerade, Steward, Swindler... but of the weaker $3 terminals, Chancellor should definitely not be on the bottom.  Chancellor is not a niche card, it's useful in almost every deck - it's just there's a lot of competition at $3, and you only have so many Actions.

Haven is done in by being mandatory.  More often than not, I find myself setting aside an Estate to it.  Why?  You play cantrips to see what your next card is.  Maybe I've got Throne Room/Haven in my hand, and I'm thinking I'll save the Throne Room.  But then I draw my Witch, so now I don't want to set aside either of them.  Or I've got Silver, Haven, three Estates, and I think I'll set aside the Silver, but then I draw my Gold, and I really wanted to pick up another Cultist...  it just usually doesn't work out very well.  It's a very frustrating card.

[Rubby]

Saboteur. It's fortunately often ignorable, but games where it's not ignorable are absolutely miserable.

Also, I rarely have much fun in a Knights game.

[terminalCopper]

I don't like Governor or Minion as their different options self-synergise into a single card strategy.

If you play minions as a single card strategy, you're doing something pretty wrong.

[Roadrunner7671]

I don't like Governor or Minion as their different options self-synergise into a single card strategy.

If you play minions as a single card strategy, you're doing something pretty wrong.

Minion can be a pretty good single card strategy if you add in one source of +buy...

[Asper]

Chancellor isn't weak.  Insta-shuffle is a thumbs up in my book.  It's just that it's weak relative to other $3 terminals.  If my $4 is non-terminal and there's nothing better at $3, I'm opening Chancellor.  I'd wager Magpie/Chancellor is a stronger opening than Magpie/Silver.  Chancellor will probably also go well with Page.  I'd say Chancellor is better than Woodcutter, and usually better than Fortune Teller.  I think the reason why it's thought of so poorly is that most new players are just so confused by it.

Haven - fuck this shitty little piece of shit stupid shitty...

So basically what you said is that it's weak compared to other $3 terminals AND that you don't want it if there are decent $4 terminals? I don't see how this is a point against Chancellor being weak. Either way, i'm not saying Chancellor is the weakest card in Dominion. It's better than Scout or Adventurer at the very least (discussion starting... now). I've often pointed out how nicely Chancellor supports Potions, too. It's just a card that you have to take a good look at to judge whether it's worth it, and that's something i like.

Really, Haven? It's actually my favourite Duration

There are a lot of strong $3 terminals - Ambassador, Hermit, Masquerade, Steward, Swindler... but of the weaker $3 terminals, Chancellor should definitely not be on the bottom.  Chancellor is not a niche card, it's useful in almost every deck - it's just there's a lot of competition at $3, and you only have so many Actions.

Haven is done in by being mandatory.  More often than not, I find myself setting aside an Estate to it.  Why?  You play cantrips to see what your next card is.  Maybe I've got Throne Room/Haven in my hand, and I'm thinking I'll save the Throne Room.  But then I draw my Witch, so now I don't want to set aside either of them.  Or I've got Silver, Haven, three Estates, and I think I'll set aside the Silver, but then I draw my Gold, and I really wanted to pick up another Cultist...  it just usually doesn't work out very well.  It's a very frustrating card.

I don't even think we are disagreeing on Chancellor. I didn't say it was the worst $3 terminal. Just that it's comparably weak, meaning it's a below avarage $3. Either way, it's not a card i hate, and i don't assume you hate it, so it's probably the wrong topic to talk about anyway.

Hmm... A Haven that sets aside an Estate is still a cantrip, though. And hey, that Estate might miss the shuffle, hooray! I never found it frustrating, either. But maybe i play Havens with lower expectations.

[Roadrunner7671]

Hmm... A Haven that sets aside an Estate is still a cantrip, though. And hey, that Estate might miss the shuffle, hooray! I never found it frustrating, either. But maybe i play Havens with lower expectations.
[/quote]

That Estate may also be discarded for benefit or trashed next turn.

[Awaclus]

I don't like Governor or Minion as their different options self-synergise into a single card strategy.

If you play minions as a single card strategy, you're doing something pretty wrong.

Minion can be a pretty good single card strategy if you add in one source of +buy...

Minion isn't strong because of its self-synergy, it's strong because it's a $5 +4 cards, +1 action, attack your opponent. The self-synergy is a nice thing to have when you happen to get multiple Minions in the same hand (which happens a lot because oftentimes you want all the Minions you can get), and the +cards option is strong enough that it's still a decent strategy if the only thing it synergizes with is itself (if you're uncontested; and if you're contested, then it sucks for both players so it's still fine). But if there's any way you can get disappearing coins from other Actions, you should, because that way you can play more of your Minions for +4 cards, +1 action and that's, like, amazing value.


Haven is good when you have an engine where you need more engine parts for consistency than you need for drawing the deck (e.g. Scrying Pool, or regular engines with relatively many stop cards). When you're done drawing your deck, you can Haven your leftover engine parts for next turn for some extra consistency. It's also helpful for connecting your junk with your trashers, connecting your few splitters with your few drawers in the early engine building phase, connecting your good cards with your other good cards to hit high price points early, disconnecting your terminals and making your junk miss the reshuffle. Yeah, it's worse than Gear, but that's why Gear costs $3 and Haven costs just $2.

[LibraryAdventurer]

Cards I hate the worst: Rebuild & Tournament
2nd worst: Saboteur, Ill-Gotten Gains, Possession, King's Court
Then: Sea Hag, Familiar, Cultist, City
  The third tier I'm fine with playing IRL because IRL we don't play very competitively, but they can be really annoying when playing people online. Some of the others I've tweaked for when I play IRL, and some I just avoid playing with. From the looks of it, I'll probably mod Champion for IRL play when I get Adventures.

It was really frustrating yesterday when I played a league match yesterday and 4 of the 6 games had at least one of my most hated cards.

Haven is also one of my favorite $2 costs, but I can't wait to get adventures and play with Gear and the rest of them. And I really enjoy those games when I get decent use from cards like Chancellor, Harvest, or even Scout.

[swedenman]

I don't like Governor or Minion as their different options self-synergise into a single card strategy.

If you play minions as a single card strategy, you're doing something pretty wrong.

I was about to say the same thing about Governor. Governor is a very powerful card and lends itself to a decent single-card strategy, but on pretty much every board there are other cards that complement a Governor deck. Even if you do only buy Governors, that's still not a trivial deck to play given the number of decisions. I personally think Governor is one of the hardest cards to play optimally, and it's a top contender for my favorite card in the game for that reason.

Anyway, I really hate Rebuild and Tournament. Rebuild for the reasons everyone's been saying. As for Tournament, I hate the first-come-first-serve mechanism, I hate that someone can get a lucky $8 hand and suddenly snowball into an insurmountable lead, I hate that one player getting a Province or two not only means they can get Prizes but also means they can turn their opponent's Tournaments into Ruined Villages. It's not as bad as Rebuild, but I still audibly groan whenever I see it in a kingdom.

How about a favorite cards thread? I'd rather talk about that.

[Elanchana]

Saboteur. It's fortunately often ignorable, but games where it's not ignorable are absolutely miserable.

Also, I rarely have much fun in a Knights game.

Oh, you mean trashing attacks, the most annoying type of card in the entirety of Dominion? Yeah, I hate those.

Nothing in this game breaks my spirit more than having key cards I spent valuable resources on disappear before my eyes.

[Awaclus]

Nothing in this game breaks my spirit more than having key cards I spent valuable resources on disappear before my eyes.

It's not really that much different from buying a phone. Whenever you buy a phone, you know that it'll last for a while, and then you have to buy a new phone to replace the old one. It's the same with all the cards you buy in trashing attack games.

[Ghacob]

It's not really that much different from buying a phone. Whenever you buy a phone, you know that it'll last for a while, and then you have to buy a new phone to replace the old one.

Funny, that's part of why I haven't gotten a new phone in years and have no plans to get a smart phone in the foreseeable future

This real life anecdote leads itself immediately to the strategy of never buying a card costing from 3 to 6 (or 3 or more)

[AdamH]

Roadrunner, I've noticed that a couple of your most recent threads seem to be along the lines of Qvist's card rankings. Have you seen them? The most recent version of these, while it is a year old, does include Guilds, and it's certainly too soon for one of these to be including Adventures IMHO.

I suppose it's unfortunate that the Favorite cards lists haven't been released for this version. It would be cool to know these.

I suppose I'll share the bottom of my list. Looking at this now, there are certainly changes I'd make, I made this list over a year ago.

Black Market
Tournament
Knights
Rebuild
Smugglers
Golem
Treasure Map
Urchin/Mercenary
Shanty Town

[jomini]

I despise the wildly swingy cards:
Swindler (oh here you get a $5 curse and I get to discard an estate)
Smugglers (sucks in skill imbalanced multiplayer, huge swings if you draw it after a $5 or <$5 opponent hand)
Tribute (sucks in skill imbalanced multiplayer, huge swings when you need actions or coin)
Familiar ($3P or not $3P that is the question)

and the biggee:

Possession - can make 3er or higher completely farcical when the guy to your left is doing something slow and boring (like a bad Gardens slog) so you can't Possesses him ... but if you try something good then the guy to your right gets a gimmee Possession game. There is no bigger price/effect breakpoint in the game than $5P and $6P. Lastly, when you play possession is often literally determine game - the strongest strategy may well be to go megaturn and hope that the first Posssession shows up in the back 3/5ths of the Opponent's deck rather than the front 2/5ths. Possession remains the only Dominion card to get vote banned in my gaming group.

[Awaclus]

I despise the wildly swingy cards:
Swindler (oh here you get a $5 curse and I get to discard an estate)
Smugglers (sucks in skill imbalanced multiplayer, huge swings if you draw it after a $5 or <$5 opponent hand)
Tribute (sucks in skill imbalanced multiplayer, huge swings when you need actions or coin)
Familiar ($3P or not $3P that is the question)

and the biggee:

Possession - can make 3er or higher completely farcical when the guy to your left is doing something slow and boring (like a bad Gardens slog) so you can't Possesses him ... but if you try something good then the guy to your right gets a gimmee Possession game. There is no bigger price/effect breakpoint in the game than $5P and $6P. Lastly, when you play possession is often literally determine game - the strongest strategy may well be to go megaturn and hope that the first Posssession shows up in the back 3/5ths of the Opponent's deck rather than the front 2/5ths. Possession remains the only Dominion card to get vote banned in my gaming group.

It's not the cards' fault that multiplayer Dominion is awful.

[Roadrunner7671]

Roadrunner, I've noticed that a couple of your most recent threads seem to be along the lines of Qvist's card rankings. Have you seen them? The most recent version of these, while it is a year old, does include Guilds, and it's certainly too soon for one of these to be including Adventures IMHO.

I suppose it's unfortunate that the Favorite cards lists haven't been released for this version. It would be cool to know these.

I suppose I'll share the bottom of my list. Looking at this now, there are certainly changes I'd make, I made this list over a year ago.

Black Market
Tournament
Knights
Rebuild
Smugglers
Golem
Treasure Map
Urchin/Mercenary
Shanty Town

I have seen them I think once, but the community seems to have changed a lot since then. My post was more related to my personal interest concerning the people of 2015, but thanks for sharing!

[Asper]

multiplayer Dominion is awful.

[mameluke]

Anything that's too swingy -- e.g. if you are lucky and you get one, then getting all of the rest of them is even easier, like Grand Market, or if you're going for multiple Mercenaries. I had a game recently where I opened Urchin/Urchin and never got them to collide.

This might be a personal opinion but I REALLY don't like Masquerade. It's too strong and not much fun. It's not an attack but feels like one. Nothing is worse than getting a great hand in the mid game and then having to pass something to your opponent. And it shouldn't be legal to have one on the board with a village and discard attack. That's brutal.

[JW]

Anything that's too swingy -- e.g. if you are lucky and you get one, then getting all of the rest of them is even easier, like Grand Market, or if you're going for multiple Mercenaries. I had a game recently where I opened Urchin/Urchin and never got them to collide.

That's why you should always have a third Urchin. To quote an Urchin master:

Two Mercenaries are simply mandatory, and getting two should be your top priority whenever you want one at all.

One of the biggest recurring mistakes I see is people not buying a 3rd Urchin after connecting on T3 or 4. The purpose of the 3rd Urchin is not to speed up the time of your first connection, but to get to a deck containing two Mercs as quickly as possible.

Pretty much the only exception to this is if you already trashed down with e.g. Chapel and only use the Mercenary for its discard attack.

[mameluke]

Oh, I had a third. The point is that my opponent had an easier time getting his 2nd Merc because trashing facilitates the urchin collision, and he was basically playing a Merc every turn before I got one of my own.

[shmeur]

Rebuild (too centralizing), Tournament (too swingy), Ambassador (just becomes a game of tennis), Saboteur (annoying), Knights (kinda swingy), Pirate Ship (annoying in multiplayer games), and Possession (for obvious reasons).

[jaketheyak]

Curse.

[Beyond Awesome]

Swindler because I have lost many games to lower-skilled players simply out of luck.

The second offender is Urchin moreso because it is annoying more than anything. Swindler is the worse though. I am surprised people talk about Tournament all the time but barely ever discuss Swindler.

[cactus]

Rebuild.

I used to hate Hunting Party because every game with it just seemed to descend into a Hunting Party race ... But this seems much less of a problem since dark ages came out.