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[Roadrunner7671]

What are some cards you hate? Not because they're bad, but maybe because they make the game less fun, they control games, they rely on shuffle luck or something else. Personally, I hate Treasure Map and Rebuild.

[Awaclus]

Lighthouse is the only one.

Also, this should probably be in Dominion General, not Articles.

[Burning Skull]

Treasure Map doesn't exactly "control games". It is usually pretty bad. The best use of it may be in some tricky engines, where maps collision is not luck dependent at all.

[Roadrunner7671]

Lighthouse is the only one.

Also, this should probably be in Dominion General, not Articles.

Okay, how do you put it in General? Or how do you put it anywhere besides Articles? 

[Roadrunner7671]

Treasure Map doesn't exactly "control games". It is usually pretty bad. The best use of it may be in some tricky engines, where maps collision is not luck dependent at all.

No, it doesn't control games, put people open double Treasure Map on a Baker board then they collide on turn 3. This has only happened once but it's made me hate Treasure Map.

[JW]

Donald X on Rebuild: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14094365#14094365

In retrospect the card is clearly too powerful for how interesting it is. Which is to say, the most powerful cards should make for lots of interesting gameplay and different situations; Chapel for example may be strong, but the games play out differently depending on the rest of the cards. With Rebuild the rest of the cards are too unlikely to get involved in your Rebuild deck.

For casual players it probably isn't a problem, unless one of them reads online about how to use Rebuild. For serious players you will probably have more fun just not playing with Rebuild after you've had the experience. I would rather that not be the case, but well at least there are 34 other kingdom cards in Dark Ages.

Rebuild and Cultist are the biggest offenders on this front for me. Cards that are too weak also make the game less fun.

I got better at making sets after Intrigue. I can believe that people playing the base set by itself might feel like it needs something. There are some duds, and those duds reduce strategic options. The base set has done great anyway, but you know, there's room for improvement. But I mean take out the duds and you're there, that's what I think. If someone plays a random ten from Dark Ages they are not going to see all these boards with nothing to do.

[Roadrunner7671]

Donald X on Rebuild: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14094365#14094365

In retrospect the card is clearly too powerful for how interesting it is. Which is to say, the most powerful cards should make for lots of interesting gameplay and different situations; Chapel for example may be strong, but the games play out differently depending on the rest of the cards. With Rebuild the rest of the cards are too unlikely to get involved in your Rebuild deck.

For casual players it probably isn't a problem, unless one of them reads online about how to use Rebuild. For serious players you will probably have more fun just not playing with Rebuild after you've had the experience. I would rather that not be the case, but well at least there are 34 other kingdom cards in Dark Ages.

Rebuild and Cultist are the biggest offenders on this front for me. Cards that are too weak also make the game less fun.

I got better at making sets after Intrigue. I can believe that people playing the base set by itself might feel like it needs something. There are some duds, and those duds reduce strategic options. The base set has done great anyway, but you know, there's room for improvement. But I mean take out the duds and you're there, that's what I think. If someone plays a random ten from Dark Ages they are not going to see all these boards with nothing to do.

What makes you hate Cultist so much more than Witch though?

[drsteelhammer]

Mainly because cultists are chainable. Which means you a) can get a lot of ruins in one turn without village support b) it promotes buying not many other action cards so the cultists connect more often.

[enfynet]

Rebuild, Torturer, Champion

[LastFootnote]

Rebuild, Torturer, Champion

I'm curious: have you actually played with Champion, or do you just hate it on principle?

[enfynet]

Rebuild, Torturer, Champion

I'm curious: have you actually played with Champion, or do you just hate it on principle?

I've played with it. By the time you get there, if you have a halfway decent engine going, it just becomes "going through the motions" until the game ends. I was anxious to use it too, then realized how much it changes the game at that point. The Peasant-Teacher line I find much more interesting.

[Roadrunner7671]

Mainly because cultists are chainable. Which means you a) can get a lot of ruins in one turn without village support b) it promotes buying not many other action cards so the cultists connect more often.

I can understand what you're saying, But I like Cultist.

[belugawhale]

Hireling and Port in multiplayer. The Hireling pile emptied in about 3-4 turns, and Ports just disappear.

[LastFootnote]

Hireling and Port in multiplayer. The Hireling pile emptied in about 3-4 turns, and Ports just disappear.

I think your group overvalues Hireling. Ports totally disappear immediately; no arguments there.

[jsh357]

Hireling and Port in multiplayer. The Hireling pile emptied in about 3-4 turns, and Ports just disappear.

Piles only empty if the group is buying them.  You can always just not buy Hirelings.

[Asper]

I hate Rebuild. It degenerates games and is poorly designed. I never understood how it could actually make its way into the game as an official card. It just doesn't lives up to the design standards i expect from Dominion.

I don't mind weak cards. Obviously you can accuse those of bad design, too, but they are not as bad for the playing experience. A Rebuild board will be about Rebuild 90% of the time. A Thief board will be about whatever the other 9 cards are 90% of the time. When weak cards work, it's nice, and if they don't, you still can have a good game of Dominion with the remaining kingdom. In fact, i count many "weak" cards as my favourites, including Chancellor, Counting House and Philosopher's Stone.

[enfynet]

I hate Rebuild. It degenerates games and is poorly designed. I never understood how it could actually make its way into the game as an official card. It just doesn't lives up to the design standards i expect from Dominion.

I don't mind weak cards. Obviously you can accuse those of bad design, too, but they are not as bad for the playing experience. A Rebuild board will be about Rebuild 90% of the time. A Thief board will be about whatever the other 9 cards are 90% of the time. When weak cards work, it's nice, and if they don't, you still can have a good game of Dominion with the remaining kingdom. In fact, i count many "weak" cards as my favourites, including Chancellor, Counting House and Philosopher's Stone.

I think this stems from the behavior of some playtesters, remembering that DXV mentioned the playtesters disliked Durations.

[werothegreat]

Chancellor isn't weak.  Insta-shuffle is a thumbs up in my book.  It's just that it's weak relative to other $3 terminals.  If my $4 is non-terminal and there's nothing better at $3, I'm opening Chancellor.  I'd wager Magpie/Chancellor is a stronger opening than Magpie/Silver.  Chancellor will probably also go well with Page.  I'd say Chancellor is better than Woodcutter, and usually better than Fortune Teller.  I think the reason why it's thought of so poorly is that most new players are just so confused by it.

I would almost never take Scout over Silver.

I hate Rebuild. It degenerates games and is poorly designed. I never understood how it could actually make its way into the game as an official card. It just doesn't lives up to the design standards i expect from Dominion.

I don't mind weak cards. Obviously you can accuse those of bad design, too, but they are not as bad for the playing experience. A Rebuild board will be about Rebuild 90% of the time. A Thief board will be about whatever the other 9 cards are 90% of the time. When weak cards work, it's nice, and if they don't, you still can have a good game of Dominion with the remaining kingdom. In fact, i count many "weak" cards as my favourites, including Chancellor, Counting House and Philosopher's Stone.

I think this stems from the behavior of some playtesters, remembering that DXV mentioned the playtesters disliked Durations.

Rebuild got very little playtesting.  Sure, it's strong, and it often dominates boards at the expense of other cards, but there are ways around it.

Cards I hate:

Haven - fuck this shitty little piece of shit stupid shitty...
Champion - remove all thought and challenge from the game once this is in play.  I don't hate this as much because it is a bit of a chore to get.  The problem is that TH and Hero are not really cards that you'd really buy on their own outside of a Feodum game.  Warrior is really the only Page line card that does anything for me.

[enfynet]

Chancellor isn't weak.  Insta-shuffle is a thumbs up in my book.  It's just that it's weak relative to other $3 terminals.  If my $4 is non-terminal and there's nothing better at $3, I'm opening Chancellor.  I'd wager Magpie/Chancellor is a stronger opening than Magpie/Silver.  Chancellor will probably also go well with Page.  I'd say Chancellor is better than Woodcutter, and usually better than Fortune Teller.  I think the reason why it's thought of so poorly is that most new players are just so confused by it.

I would almost never take Scout over Silver.

I hate Rebuild. It degenerates games and is poorly designed. I never understood how it could actually make its way into the game as an official card. It just doesn't lives up to the design standards i expect from Dominion.

I don't mind weak cards. Obviously you can accuse those of bad design, too, but they are not as bad for the playing experience. A Rebuild board will be about Rebuild 90% of the time. A Thief board will be about whatever the other 9 cards are 90% of the time. When weak cards work, it's nice, and if they don't, you still can have a good game of Dominion with the remaining kingdom. In fact, i count many "weak" cards as my favourites, including Chancellor, Counting House and Philosopher's Stone.

I think this stems from the behavior of some playtesters, remembering that DXV mentioned the playtesters disliked Durations.

Rebuild got very little playtesting.  Sure, it's strong, and it often dominates boards at the expense of other cards, but there are ways around it.

Cards I hate:

Haven - fuck this shitty little piece of shit stupid shitty...
Champion - remove all thought and challenge from the game once this is in play.  I don't hate this as much because it is a bit of a chore to get.  The problem is that TH and Hero are not really cards that you'd really buy on their own outside of a Feodum game.  Warrior is really the only Page line card that does anything for me.

Once you have Champion in play, Warriors become really cumbersome. The first one attacks 2 cards, the second one attacks 3 cards, and so on. With the card draw, they aren't really bothered by a few Heroes in the deck either.

[werothegreat]

Bear in mind Champions aren't Travellers.

[Elanchana]

Possession.

Shoulda been a given.

[LastFootnote]

The problem is that TH and Hero are not really cards that you'd really buy on their own outside of a Feodum game.

Really? You never buy Silver gainers outside of a Feodum game? Not with Duke? Not with Gardens?

And you wouldn't want Hero with Platinum available? Would high-quality payload gum up your engine too much?

[liopoil]

Library.

[eHalcyon]

Library.

Inferiority complex?

[Asper]

Chancellor isn't weak.  Insta-shuffle is a thumbs up in my book.  It's just that it's weak relative to other $3 terminals.  If my $4 is non-terminal and there's nothing better at $3, I'm opening Chancellor.  I'd wager Magpie/Chancellor is a stronger opening than Magpie/Silver.  Chancellor will probably also go well with Page.  I'd say Chancellor is better than Woodcutter, and usually better than Fortune Teller.  I think the reason why it's thought of so poorly is that most new players are just so confused by it.

Haven - fuck this shitty little piece of shit stupid shitty...

So basically what you said is that it's weak compared to other $3 terminals AND that you don't want it if there are decent $4 terminals? I don't see how this is a point against Chancellor being weak. Either way, i'm not saying Chancellor is the weakest card in Dominion. It's better than Scout or Adventurer at the very least (discussion starting... now). I've often pointed out how nicely Chancellor supports Potions, too. It's just a card that you have to take a good look at to judge whether it's worth it, and that's something i like.

Really, Haven? It's actually my favourite Duration