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Roadrunner7671

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Would this card be okay?
« on: May 30, 2015, 10:55:21 am »
0

How does this card idea sound to you?

Poisonous Arrows
+1 Action
+1 Coin
Each other player discards an Action card, or reveals a hand with no Action cards.
Cost:4
Type: Action-Attack
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werothegreat

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2015, 11:20:19 am »
0

There is a Variants & Fan Cards subforum.  Please use that for this sort of thing.  :)
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2015, 11:23:15 am »
0

There is a Variants & Fan Cards subforum.  Please use that for this sort of thing.  :)

I will try to in the future, but I am fairly new to the Forum and I've just figured out how to start new topics today.
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pubby

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2015, 02:02:21 pm »
+1

It's not fair without:

Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards an Action card, or reveals a hand with no Action cards.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2015, 02:04:32 pm »
0

It's not fair without:

Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards an Action card, or reveals a hand with no Action cards.

So you think chaining them together or Throne/King Courting them is too unfair?
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enfynet

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2015, 02:12:57 pm »
0

It's not fair without:

Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards an Action card, or reveals a hand with no Action cards.

So you think chaining them together or Throne/King Courting them is too unfair?
Unless you want to easily pin your opponents, yes.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2015, 02:14:05 pm »
0

It's not fair without:

Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards an Action card, or reveals a hand with no Action cards.

So you think chaining them together or Throne/King Courting them is too unfair?
Unless you want to easily pin your opponents, yes.
So you think without the '5 or more cards in hand' text, this card would be a game controller for sure?
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popsofctown

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2015, 03:04:58 pm »
0

I like the card.

I don't necessarily agree that pinning is a problem.  You don't have to discard anything if you just buy treasure.  "You get pinned, unless X" is allowed on official cards, e.g. torturer, but I notice that every fan card anyone suggests that is almost as brutal as torturer gets criticized while Torturer itself is beloved.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2015, 03:13:25 pm »
0

I like the card.

I don't necessarily agree that pinning is a problem.  You don't have to discard anything if you just buy treasure.  "You get pinned, unless X" is allowed on official cards, e.g. torturer, but I notice that every fan card anyone suggests that is almost as brutal as torturer gets criticized while Torturer itself is beloved.

You're right. I usually try to win the split with this card (I already made it, I just came to the Forum to get feedback) then I go for mostly money, and I win with Poisonous Arrows/Big Money.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2015, 03:16:15 pm »
+4

I like the card.

I don't necessarily agree that pinning is a problem.  You don't have to discard anything if you just buy treasure.  "You get pinned, unless X" is allowed on official cards, e.g. torturer, but I notice that every fan card anyone suggests that is almost as brutal as torturer gets criticized while Torturer itself is beloved.

Torturer is not beloved. Its attack might be fine on a card that didn't draw so many cards, but it's too harsh as published.

"You don't have to discard anything if you just buy Treasure" is the real problem with Poisonous Arrows. Attacks that target Action cards are a Bad Idea because you can thwart them by having a boring deck. Yawn.
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Asper

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2015, 03:32:44 pm »
+3

I like the card.

I don't necessarily agree that pinning is a problem.  You don't have to discard anything if you just buy treasure.  "You get pinned, unless X" is allowed on official cards, e.g. torturer, but I notice that every fan card anyone suggests that is almost as brutal as torturer gets criticized while Torturer itself is beloved.

Torturer is not beloved. Its attack might be fine on a card that didn't draw so many cards, but it's too harsh as published.

"You don't have to discard anything if you just buy Treasure" is the real problem with Poisonous Arrows. Attacks that target Action cards are a Bad Idea because you can thwart them by having a boring deck. Yawn.

I'm behind this 90%. Not sure whether Torturer is "too harsh".

Either way, Torturer at the very least has two attack effects, and lets you choose which you do. What's more, the harsher effect enables you to do the less harsh effect without any problem - so chaining Torturers means that only 2/3 of them hit.

If you make a card that targets actions, it's very likely a bad idea to keep it without bounds. You could still have it be a choice, or maybe even the bane of the attack (edit: "bane" is commonly used to describe something you can do to be spared from an attack, named after the "bane" of Young Witch). Not sure whether "each other player with 5 or more cards in hand" fixes the issue - if i have only one (very good) action in hand, and another opponent three cheap ones, the attack hurts me so much worse. So, the attack would affect decks build around fewer stronger cards more and become very frustrating to players going for them.

Here's a Looter attack idea i had a while back. The original gained to hand, but whatever:
"Each other player may discard an action card. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins"
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 03:49:35 pm by Asper »
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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2015, 07:15:40 pm »
+1

Torturer is not beloved. Its attack might be fine on a card that didn't draw so many cards, but it's too harsh as published.

Eh? If Torturer had the same attack but didn't draw so many cards, it'd be strictly worse than Witch.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2015, 07:18:07 pm »
0

Torturer is not beloved. Its attack might be fine on a card that didn't draw so many cards, but it's too harsh as published.

Eh? If Torturer had the same attack but didn't draw so many cards, it'd be strictly worse than Witch.

I like Torturer a lot. The choice makes it brutal, but Torturer engines make the game fun.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2015, 07:34:43 pm »
0

Torturer is not beloved. Its attack might be fine on a card that didn't draw so many cards, but it's too harsh as published.

Eh? If Torturer had the same attack but didn't draw so many cards, it'd be strictly worse than Witch.

I don't mean that its bonus should have just been +2 Cards. I mean that either it should have not drawn cards at all (and had another bonus) or maybe it could have +2 Cards and another small bonus. The point is that they should be harder to stack.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2015, 08:43:59 pm »
0

Torturer is not beloved. Its attack might be fine on a card that didn't draw so many cards, but it's too harsh as published.

Eh? If Torturer had the same attack but didn't draw so many cards, it'd be strictly worse than Witch.

I don't mean that its bonus should have just been +2 Cards. I mean that either it should have not drawn cards at all (and had another bonus) or maybe it could have +2 Cards and another small bonus. The point is that they should be harder to stack.

That's like arguing that no one likes Rebuild. As true as that might be, a lot of the times I just play anything but Rebuild to try and see if I can win. It's the same thing with Torturer. Either take advantage of the card or avoid it and try some fun Scout strategy (or something else). Torturer is very powerful, but of course they have limitations.
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markusin

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2015, 08:48:46 pm »
0

One issue I see with this card is that it counters itself. Two players split Poisonous Arrows, but then the player who plays a bunch first locks the other player out of having a good turn (and they are can trips, so they don't impede engines much). For that reason, I think some handsize limit to receive the effect or having some other means of limiting the damage is desirable.

Torturer has a similar issue, actually. A player hit by a torturer chain has to take in a bunch of curses in order to retaliate.
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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2015, 05:17:57 am »
0

That's like arguing that no one likes Rebuild. As true as that might be, a lot of the times I just play anything but Rebuild to try and see if I can win. It's the same thing with Torturer. Either take advantage of the card or avoid it and try some fun Scout strategy (or something else). Torturer is very powerful, but of course they have limitations.

The difference is that Rebuild enables a strong rush strategy, which is still beatable by strong engines. Torturer enables an engine, and it's very rare for anything to beat a strong engine. I don't mind always going for Torturer when it's available because the games are still very much non-trivial to play, but I can see how someone would find it unfun.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2015, 08:50:14 am »
0

One issue I see with this card is that it counters itself. Two players split Poisonous Arrows, but then the player who plays a bunch first locks the other player out of having a good turn (and they are can trips, so they don't impede engines much). For that reason, I think some handsize limit to receive the effect or having some other means of limiting the damage is desirable.

Torturer has a similar issue, actually. A player hit by a torturer chain has to take in a bunch of curses in order to retaliate.

But with Torturer if you have your own chain in hand when hit with a chain, you have the option to take a few curses then retaliate. With this, you have no way of just taking the hit then retaliating.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2015, 08:53:12 am »
0

I think this is a big Rock Paper Scissors card, giving a p2 advantage. BM>Poisenous Arrows>Engine>BM.
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popsofctown

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2015, 10:32:18 am »
0

Yeah, buying lots of money is yawn, but pretty much every dead draw card and Jack are responsible for the same sin.

You could probably still buy actions for your BM deck on 5$ and just hope it doesn't get hit, and use all your other price points for gold and silver.  So there would still be an interesting choice in what 5$ card to get.  Much like I think IGG is a healthier card than Jack because you can still pick between 3-4$ terminal actions while Jack precludes any other use for your terminal action and a lot of nonterminals too.

I'm glad at least that LF dislikes Torturer too, that makes him internally consistent, which is good and I like.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2015, 11:10:48 am »
+1

Yeah, buying lots of money is yawn, but pretty much every dead draw card and Jack are responsible for the same sin.

Whoa, Jack and terminal draw make your opponents not want Action cards? Guess I've been playing against them all wrong.
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popsofctown

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2015, 02:03:17 pm »
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The player who buys the card themselves, obviously.  The card's presence in the kingdom is still compelling -somebody- to load up on treasure.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Would this card be okay?
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2015, 02:31:07 pm »
+1

The player who buys the card themselves, obviously.  The card's presence in the kingdom is still compelling -somebody- to load up on treasure.

No, that's nonsense. Terminal draw is at least as useful in engines as it is in BM and Jack of all Trades also has plenty of other Action cards it works with.
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