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Author Topic: Scout is bad, not horrible?  (Read 39262 times)

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Roadrunner7671

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Scout is bad, not horrible?
« on: May 30, 2015, 10:46:11 am »
+4

I'm just going to come out and say it: I like Scout. It combos with a lot of things, and I personally do not think it's horrible.
1. It combos with Crossroads for a deck that can use Victory cards as draw.
2. It has a weak combo with Wishing Well.
3. Can defend against deck inspector attacks if they leave Victory Cards on top of your deck.
4. Can let you draw more cards with draw-to-x, and can control what those cards are.
5. Harem, Nobles, Great Hall, etc.
6. Can combo with discard cards like Oasis and Inn (you draw Victory cards then discard them).
7. Mystic, Mystic, Mystic!
That's my opinion, but I think a lot of these reasons make Scout a card that you could buy every once and a while, and benefit from it!
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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2015, 10:56:55 am »
0

There are all kinds of circumstances you can cook up that make it look better, but at the end of the day it does less for you than any other card at the $4 range, and there is so much competition at that range that Scout is almost always the worst option for you.  I mean, you can make a Curse or Ruined Library a good card for you in extreme circumstances.  That doesn't mean they are good cards.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2015, 10:58:47 am »
0

There are all kinds of circumstances you can cook up that make it look better, but at the end of the day it does less for you than any other card at the $4 range, and there is so much competition at that range that Scout is almost always the worst option for you.  I mean, you can make a Curse or Ruined Library a good card for you in extreme circumstances.  That doesn't mean they are good cards.

I agree that you can make any card look good, but without dominant 4s (JOAT, Sea Hag, Caravan, etc.) Scout could be worth it in the long run.
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jonts26

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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2015, 11:01:13 am »
+3

There are all kinds of circumstances you can cook up that make it look better, but at the end of the day it does less for you than any other card at the $4 range, and there is so much competition at that range that Scout is almost always the worst option for you.  I mean, you can make a Curse or Ruined Library a good card for you in extreme circumstances.  That doesn't mean they are good cards.

I agree that you can make any card look good, but without dominant 4s (JOAT, Sea Hag, Caravan, etc.) Scout could be worth it in the long run.

Even if there were no dominant <$4 cards (or even mediocre ones), Scout still always has to compete with silver and most often loses there too. You could probably invent some sort of contrived board where you want to buy a scout, but in a random set up, the odds of ever wanting scout quickly approach 0%.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2015, 11:06:35 am »
+1

There are all kinds of circumstances you can cook up that make it look better, but at the end of the day it does less for you than any other card at the $4 range, and there is so much competition at that range that Scout is almost always the worst option for you.  I mean, you can make a Curse or Ruined Library a good card for you in extreme circumstances.  That doesn't mean they are good cards.

I agree that you can make any card look good, but without dominant 4s (JOAT, Sea Hag, Caravan, etc.) Scout could be worth it in the long run.

Even if there were no dominant <$4 cards (or even mediocre ones), Scout still always has to compete with silver and most often loses there too. You could probably invent some sort of contrived board where you want to buy a scout, but in a random set up, the odds of ever wanting scout quickly approach 0%.

Too many Silvers can be bad as they don't draw cards. Scout doesn't draw good cards, but I'm going to list all the boards where it may be worthwhile to buy Scout:

A board containing any of these cards:
Wishing Well
Mystic
Ghost Ship
Baron
Cellar
Vault
Tournament
Explorer
Expand (maybe)
Secret Chamber (maybe)
Crossroads
Great Hall
Nobles
Inheritance
Harem
Oasis
Inn
Tunnel/discarding card
 There are probably more that I forgot

Scout is also useful if you lose the Ambassador war or get an early Followers.
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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2015, 11:08:34 am »
+4

Wishing Well/Scout is a nombo. You're using one card to guarantee drawing one card that you could have drawn anyway. That's not very good. At best, you can use it to guarantee drawing two cards that you could have drawn anyway, that's still not very good.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2015, 11:10:42 am »
0

Wishing Well/Scout is a nombo. You're using one card to guarantee drawing one card that you could have drawn anyway. That's not very good. At best, you can use it to guarantee drawing two cards that you could have drawn anyway, that's still not very good.

I do sort of agree that Wishing Well/Scout isn't the best, but with weak draw, it might be necessary. However, I've seen you around the forums a lot and you tend to disagree with a lot of things, so if Wishing Well is the only thing you disagree with, I'm happy.
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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2015, 11:12:36 am »
+6

Try buying Scout a lot against good players and see what it does for you; that's always a good test.
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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2015, 11:15:40 am »
0

Try buying Scout a lot against good players and see what it does for you; that's always a good test.

On a certain board, you might not regret it! I bet you've barely given Scout a chance! I agree, it's not fantastic. However, if there were 100 $4 cards (I know there aren't) I might put scout somewhere around #70. When it shines, I think it shines pretty big. When it doesn't think of it as a cantrip that drew a Victory card.
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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2015, 11:15:59 am »
+2

I'd say Herald would be one of the rare cards that makes Scout not horrible.
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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2015, 11:18:08 am »
+1

Try buying Scout a lot against good players and see what it does for you; that's always a good test.

On a certain board, you might not regret it! I bet you've barely given Scout a chance! I agree, it's not fantastic. However, if there were 100 $4 cards (I know there aren't) I might put scout somewhere around #70. When it shines, I think it shines pretty big. When it doesn't think of it as a cantrip that drew a Victory card.

Oh, I have given Scout plenty of chances.  They usually don't work out.  There are some cases where I will take it, but they're incredibly rare and there has to be an absence of better options.
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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2015, 11:21:59 am »
0

Try buying Scout a lot against good players and see what it does for you; that's always a good test.

On a certain board, you might not regret it! I bet you've barely given Scout a chance! I agree, it's not fantastic. However, if there were 100 $4 cards (I know there aren't) I might put scout somewhere around #70. When it shines, I think it shines pretty big. When it doesn't think of it as a cantrip that drew a Victory card.

Oh, I have given Scout plenty of chances.  They usually don't work out.  There are some cases where I will take it, but they're incredibly rare and there has to be an absence of better options.
[/q

I believe I have listed those cases, and with the amount of cards listed, there has to be at least a 10% chance that you'll buy Scout on any given board. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but Scout and it's 'listed cards' are there, 8 other cards may not be enough to beat Scout.
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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2015, 11:23:49 am »
+1

Try buying Scout a lot against good players and see what it does for you; that's always a good test.

On a certain board, you might not regret it! I bet you've barely given Scout a chance! I agree, it's not fantastic. However, if there were 100 $4 cards (I know there aren't) I might put scout somewhere around #70. When it shines, I think it shines pretty big. When it doesn't think of it as a cantrip that drew a Victory card.

Oh, I have given Scout plenty of chances.  They usually don't work out.  There are some cases where I will take it, but they're incredibly rare and there has to be an absence of better options.

I believe I have listed those cases, and with the amount of cards listed, there has to be at least a 10% chance that you'll buy Scout on any given board. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but Scout and it's 'listed cards' are there, 8 other cards may not be enough to beat Scout.

Hey look, I can make lists without proof too!

Apple
Peach
Ants
Plum
Pear
Banana
Coconut
Grapefruit

All of these combo with peanut butter.

Scout combos usually sound neat on paper, but if you look at history they don't win games a whole lot.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2015, 11:29:34 am »
+1

Try buying Scout a lot against good players and see what it does for you; that's always a good test.

On a certain board, you might not regret it! I bet you've barely given Scout a chance! I agree, it's not fantastic. However, if there were 100 $4 cards (I know there aren't) I might put scout somewhere around #70. When it shines, I think it shines pretty big. When it doesn't think of it as a cantrip that drew a Victory card.

Oh, I have given Scout plenty of chances.  They usually don't work out.  There are some cases where I will take it, but they're incredibly rare and there has to be an absence of better options.

I believe I have listed those cases, and with the amount of cards listed, there has to be at least a 10% chance that you'll buy Scout on any given board. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but Scout and it's 'listed cards' are there, 8 other cards may not be enough to beat Scout.

Hey look, I can make lists without proof too!

Apple
Peach
Ants
Plum
Pear
Banana
Coconut
Grapefruit

All of these combo with peanut butter.

Scout combos usually sound neat on paper, but if you look at history they don't win games a whole lot.

That may be true. When I play with Scout, it's usually in real life with people who I can usually beat. I do disagree with your list though. I think that only apples and bananas combo with peanut butter. Is that a reason to not buy peanut butter? Of course not! Even if there's Nutella, you still might want to buy peanut butter because you like it and think it's good.
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SCSN

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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2015, 11:30:00 am »
+7

I've played over 10.000 games of Dominion and in only two of those was Scout better than Pearl Diver (a terrible $2-cost). There's absolutely no way you want to buy it on 10% of the boards that contain it.

And listing reasons has nothing to do with anything. I can write a 1000-page book about how Hitler was awesome, but that doesn't make it true.
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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2015, 11:32:26 am »
+15

I've played over 10.000 games of Dominion and in only two of those was Scout better than Pearl Diver (a terrible $2-cost). There's absolutely no way you want to buy it on 10% of the boards that contain it.

And listing reasons has nothing to do with anything. I can write a 1000-page book about how Hitler was awesome, but that doesn't make it true.

I HAVE PLAYED TEN, AND EXACTLY TEN

NO MORE, NO LESS
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2015, 11:35:35 am »
0

I've played over 10.000 games of Dominion and in only two of those was Scout better than Pearl Diver (a terrible $2-cost). There's absolutely no way you want to buy it on 10% of the boards that contain it.

And listing reasons has nothing to do with anything. I can write a 1000-page book about how Hitler was awesome, but that doesn't make it true.

If we were to play, me with my Scout army and you with some engine, you'd probably win, that is true. However, I would have a lot of fun playing my Scout deck, because we need to remember that Dominion is a game and having fun is very important. However, if you were to say "there's no engine here, I have to play Wharf BM," my Scout engine could win. Scout can be very weak if you just pick one up, but if you build your deck with Scout, it can be quite helpful.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2015, 11:36:15 am »
+1

I've played over 10.000 games of Dominion and in only two of those was Scout better than Pearl Diver (a terrible $2-cost). There's absolutely no way you want to buy it on 10% of the boards that contain it.

And listing reasons has nothing to do with anything. I can write a 1000-page book about how Hitler was awesome, but that doesn't make it true.

I HAVE PLAYED TEN, AND EXACTLY TEN

Ha ha. He must be from Europe, where 10 would be 10,000 and 10000 would be 10.000.
NO MORE, NO LESS
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SCSN

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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2015, 11:36:49 am »
+1

However, if you were to say "there's no engine here, I have to play Wharf BM," my Scout engine could win. Scout can be very weak if you just pick one up, but if you build your deck with Scout, it can be quite helpful.

You do have a point there.
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2015, 11:39:04 am »
0

However, if you were to say "there's no engine here, I have to play Wharf BM," my Scout engine could win. Scout can be very weak if you just pick one up, but if you build your deck with Scout, it can be quite helpful.

You do have a point there.

Of course, you could say to me "Vagrant is a bad card, but if you fill your deck up with junk, your Vagrants become good!" But I'm glad you didn't try to pull something like that.
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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2015, 11:47:14 am »
0

Wishing Well/Scout is a nombo. You're using one card to guarantee drawing one card that you could have drawn anyway. That's not very good. At best, you can use it to guarantee drawing two cards that you could have drawn anyway, that's still not very good.

I do sort of agree that Wishing Well/Scout isn't the best, but with weak draw, it might be necessary. However, I've seen you around the forums a lot and you tend to disagree with a lot of things, so if Wishing Well is the only thing you disagree with, I'm happy.

The other things are true. I don't think they're enough to make Scout a worthwhile purchase, though.
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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2015, 11:50:27 am »
0

Try buying Scout a lot against good players and see what it does for you; that's always a good test.

On a certain board, you might not regret it! I bet you've barely given Scout a chance! I agree, it's not fantastic. However, if there were 100 $4 cards (I know there aren't) I might put scout somewhere around #70. When it shines, I think it shines pretty big. When it doesn't think of it as a cantrip that drew a Victory card.
There are currently 78 $4 Kingdom Cards, plus Potion, and two $4 Events. You mean to tell me, you think there are 24 Kingdom Cards in the $4 range that are worse than Scout? I'd put money Treasure on there being less than 24 cards in all of Dominion that are worse than Scout for free. Scout as a $4 cantrip *maybe* but not as it is.
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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2015, 12:02:04 pm »
+7

If we were to play, me with my Scout army and you with some engine, you'd probably win, that is true. However, I would have a lot of fun playing my Scout deck, because we need to remember that Dominion is a game and having fun is very important.

Fun is subjective. Most of the top players around here probably find competitive high level play to be the most fun. But if you enjoy scout and have fun with it, go ahead and keep buying it. But if you want to get better at dominion, stop buying scout.
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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2015, 12:29:13 pm »
+2

Scout can hurt most of these as much as it can help.

1. If Scout and Crossroads aren't in the same hand, Scout can take VP cards away from Crossroads.
2. If you didn't have Scout, you would already have an extra good card in hand even without guessing correctly on Wishing Well.
3. Usually not worth having the extra junk card in your deck.
4. It doesn't really.  Like 2, if you didn't have Scout you would have drawn that extra card anyway.  Worse, Scout can actually draw VP cards into your hand, weakening the draw-to-X.  Scout just forces the draw-to-X card to draw Victory cards first, then offer some minimal choice in the order which might not matter anyway if you draw it all.  Drawing the Victory cards first is usually not a good thing though, which makes this a huge nombo.
5. That's the dream, but it usually doesn't work out.
6. Same problem as 1.
7. Same problem as 2.
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Re: Scout is bad, not horrible?
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2015, 12:40:41 pm »
+1

(1) No, it's terrible.
(2) Why is this in "Articles"?
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