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Author Topic: Best $1-$2 costing card?  (Read 13802 times)

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swedenman

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2015, 03:02:33 pm »
0

Stonemason is not really Tier 1 if you're actually paying $2 for it though. It almost should be compared more to $6+ cards

Stonemason is a $2 card. For $2, you get the Stonemason card along with a sweet deal on other Action cards. That sweet deal is part of the Stonemason card. The extra money you're paying isn't for Stonemason, it's just money spent in conjunction with what is essentially an on-buy effect to gain cards more easily than you otherwise could. True, it doesn't directly compete with $2 cards, but it doesn't really directly compete with anything given its unique gaining ability, so we might as well rank it with the $2's.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 03:04:22 pm by swedenman »
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liopoil

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2015, 03:43:11 pm »
+3

I don't think you can count Stonemason outside of the $2 range.  It's a $2 card, and its play effect alone is really good.  Obviously the overpay is the most significant part of it, but the two work together to accomplish what you're generally going for with Stonemason: a fast pile-out.

I can understand not including Events in rankings, but understand that my list is in no way official and I am not an authority on these things.  I just do it for fun. (I have full rankings of all the cards on a spreadsheet I update now and then)  I did not mean to derail this thread (hardly anyone even responded to the OP's question) but well, this is f.ds.


You should make a similar ranking for the card art!
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Dingan

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2015, 03:51:02 pm »
0

Not sure if it was mentioned yet, but...

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drsteelhammer

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2015, 03:59:42 pm »
0

We should really do a new one of these rankings soon. Maybe after a bit of Adventures playtime
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jsh357

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2015, 04:03:18 pm »
0

I don't think you can count Stonemason outside of the $2 range.  It's a $2 card, and its play effect alone is really good.  Obviously the overpay is the most significant part of it, but the two work together to accomplish what you're generally going for with Stonemason: a fast pile-out.

I can understand not including Events in rankings, but understand that my list is in no way official and I am not an authority on these things.  I just do it for fun. (I have full rankings of all the cards on a spreadsheet I update now and then)  I did not mean to derail this thread (hardly anyone even responded to the OP's question) but well, this is f.ds.


You should make a similar ranking for the card art!

You mean an incomplete one?

WW already did his, and his rankings are probably more accurate than mine.  It would be retreading old ground.
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Cuzz

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2015, 04:12:10 pm »
+1

Stonemason is not really Tier 1 if you're actually paying $2 for it though. It almost should be compared more to $6+ cards

Stonemason is a $2 card. For $2, you get the Stonemason card along with a sweet deal on other Action cards. That sweet deal is part of the Stonemason card. The extra money you're paying isn't for Stonemason, it's just money spent in conjunction with what is essentially an on-buy effect to gain cards more easily than you otherwise could. True, it doesn't directly compete with $2 cards, but it doesn't really directly compete with anything given its unique gaining ability, so we might as well rank it with the $2's.

You're not telling me anything I don't know--my point was that for its on-play ability alone I consider it far from Tier 1. It's a terminal one-card trasher that can't trash estates and/or a situational gainer that requires having expensive cards you're willing to trash. And it does compete with 6s and 7s since that's what you normally spend on it. It's primary function is more similar to Border Village than anything else.
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swedenman

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2015, 05:40:14 pm »
0

Stonemason is not really Tier 1 if you're actually paying $2 for it though. It almost should be compared more to $6+ cards

Stonemason is a $2 card. For $2, you get the Stonemason card along with a sweet deal on other Action cards. That sweet deal is part of the Stonemason card. The extra money you're paying isn't for Stonemason, it's just money spent in conjunction with what is essentially an on-buy effect to gain cards more easily than you otherwise could. True, it doesn't directly compete with $2 cards, but it doesn't really directly compete with anything given its unique gaining ability, so we might as well rank it with the $2's.

You're not telling me anything I don't know--my point was that for its on-play ability alone I consider it far from Tier 1.

So why are you only considering its on-play ability? Every other card is ranked based on its on-gain, on-buy, on-trash, etc. abilities. Inn would be a lot worse if not for its on-gain ability; Farmland would be strictly worse than a Duchy if not for its on-buy effect. These cards are priced to include those effects, you should consider them in the rankings.
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Cuzz

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2015, 06:55:00 pm »
+2

Stonemason is not really Tier 1 if you're actually paying $2 for it though. It almost should be compared more to $6+ cards

Stonemason is a $2 card. For $2, you get the Stonemason card along with a sweet deal on other Action cards. That sweet deal is part of the Stonemason card. The extra money you're paying isn't for Stonemason, it's just money spent in conjunction with what is essentially an on-buy effect to gain cards more easily than you otherwise could. True, it doesn't directly compete with $2 cards, but it doesn't really directly compete with anything given its unique gaining ability, so we might as well rank it with the $2's.

You're not telling me anything I don't know--my point was that for its on-play ability alone I consider it far from Tier 1.

So why are you only considering its on-play ability? Every other card is ranked based on its on-gain, on-buy, on-trash, etc. abilities. Inn would be a lot worse if not for its on-gain ability; Farmland would be strictly worse than a Duchy if not for its on-buy effect. These cards are priced to include those effects, you should consider them in the rankings.

Because you pay $5 for Inn together with its on-gain ability. You pay $6 for Farmland, and perhaps more relevantly for Border Village, with its on-gain ability. You most often pay $7 for Stonemason with its on-gain ability.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but I think it's an interesting question. If you're going to rank it against the other $2s, you maybe should only be considering the part that you can actually get for $2, which is not an elite ability.

Someone better than I am can maybe argue that I'm underestimating Stonemason's on-play effect, which is possible, but for me it often becomes a dead card.
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werothegreat

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2015, 07:26:07 pm »
+1

We had this discussion when Guilds first came out.  Ranking overpay cards at every possible cost is just silly.  Better to have them in their nominal cost zone, while taking into account the fact that you can spend more on them for other stuff.  I mean, if we ranked Masterpiece at every cost, it would be the worst $3, hands down, and probably the worst $4 as well.  But it doesn't cost $4, or $5, or any other cost.  It costs $3.  You might spend more on it, but once it's in your deck, it costs $3, and every card that cares about cards' costs is going to see it as a $3.  Border Village is a great $6 not just because it gives you more options for it's when-gain ability, but because it can be Remodeled into a Province, and so on.  There's more to cost than just how much you paid for it.

EDIT: Here's another way to think of overpay cards - as +Buy events.

Stonemason - $2

+1 Buy
Gain a Stonemason.  If your next buy is an Action, gain another Action of the same cost.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 07:29:15 pm by werothegreat »
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qmech

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2015, 07:32:24 pm »
+1

Someone better than I am can maybe argue that I'm underestimating Stonemason's on-play effect, which is possible, but for me it often becomes a dead card.

The on-play effect is something that I still underestimate.  It has lots of situational uses, some of which can be very powerful.  Trashing Coppers or Curses is usually bad; the big plays are Gold -> $5 action or Duchy and surprise 3-piles in the end game.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2015, 07:37:57 pm »
+2

I guess it depends on the context in which you're comparing cards. If you have exactly $2 and are deciding what if anything to buy, Stonemason will normally be fairly low on the list. On the other hand, if at the start of the game you look at the $2 cards available, Stonemason will often be pretty high on the "How much attention should I pay to this card being available?" list.

On the other hand, I used Stonemason to turn a Platinum into two Provinces the other day - not bad for a $2 card.
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jsh357

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2015, 07:42:17 pm »
+1

To respond to Cuzz, I should explain my intent was not to rate the $2 cards together.  I actually just rated every card on a 1-20 scale, and Stonemason happens to be in the high end because I think it's one of the most powerful cards in the game.  In this thread, I listed it with the $2 cards.  If you prefer it not to be there, you can always pretend it isn't; the metric you use can be whatever if all cards are rated on the same scale, which is the beauty of it.  Personally, I think grouping by cost isn't all that important or necessary.  Ambassador is a better card than Explorer etc
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Cuzz

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2015, 07:44:02 pm »
0

These are all great points!
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swedenman

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2015, 04:19:15 pm »
0

Stonemason is not really Tier 1 if you're actually paying $2 for it though. It almost should be compared more to $6+ cards

Stonemason is a $2 card. For $2, you get the Stonemason card along with a sweet deal on other Action cards. That sweet deal is part of the Stonemason card. The extra money you're paying isn't for Stonemason, it's just money spent in conjunction with what is essentially an on-buy effect to gain cards more easily than you otherwise could. True, it doesn't directly compete with $2 cards, but it doesn't really directly compete with anything given its unique gaining ability, so we might as well rank it with the $2's.

You're not telling me anything I don't know--my point was that for its on-play ability alone I consider it far from Tier 1.

So why are you only considering its on-play ability? Every other card is ranked based on its on-gain, on-buy, on-trash, etc. abilities. Inn would be a lot worse if not for its on-gain ability; Farmland would be strictly worse than a Duchy if not for its on-buy effect. These cards are priced to include those effects, you should consider them in the rankings.

Because you pay $5 for Inn together with its on-gain ability. You pay $6 for Farmland, and perhaps more relevantly for Border Village, with its on-gain ability. You most often pay $7 for Stonemason with its on-gain ability.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but I think it's an interesting question. If you're going to rank it against the other $2s, you maybe should only be considering the part that you can actually get for $2, which is not an elite ability.

Someone better than I am can maybe argue that I'm underestimating Stonemason's on-play effect, which is possible, but for me it often becomes a dead card.

Stonemason's on-play ability is extremely useful. I agree that it would be a pretty weak card if that were all there was to it, but it's not. I just think it's misleading to rank only the overpay cards based on their on-play effects alone when we take on-gain and on-buy effects into account for everything else. I agree that they present a bit of a conundrum for ranking purposes since you pay so many different amounts for the same card, but at the end of the day it's still essentially an on-buy effect, and as such should be factored into the rankings. I see your issue with ranking it with the $2's, but I don't think it makes any more sense to rank it with other costs, and card rankings will ultimately be flawed no matter what system we use. I just think completely ignoring a component of the card, especially a major component that is usually the card's main purpose, is a bad system.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 04:20:26 pm by swedenman »
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Asper

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2015, 06:04:29 pm »
0

I just think it's misleading to rank only the overpay cards based on their on-play effects alone when we take on-gain and on-buy effects into account for everything else. I agree that they present a bit of a conundrum for ranking purposes since you pay so many different amounts for the same card, but at the end of the day it's still essentially an on-buy effect, and as such should be factored into the rankings.

Overpay is totally an on-buy effect. I recently asked Donald whether overpay was something along the line of
Quote
"When you buy this, you may pay any amount of $[...]"
and he said it was the same mechanically. It's not like overpay would be the only on-buy that asks you to do something before you get something (Farmlands, for example).

(Except i forgot that 0$ is excluded and P allowed, but that's solved by "any amount bigger than 0$" or something like that).
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Accatitippi

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2015, 06:07:26 pm »
+1

Stonemason is not really Tier 1 if you're actually paying $2 for it though. It almost should be compared more to $6+ cards

Stonemason is a $2 card. For $2, you get the Stonemason card along with a sweet deal on other Action cards. That sweet deal is part of the Stonemason card. The extra money you're paying isn't for Stonemason, it's just money spent in conjunction with what is essentially an on-buy effect to gain cards more easily than you otherwise could. True, it doesn't directly compete with $2 cards, but it doesn't really directly compete with anything given its unique gaining ability, so we might as well rank it with the $2's.

You're not telling me anything I don't know--my point was that for its on-play ability alone I consider it far from Tier 1.

So why are you only considering its on-play ability? Every other card is ranked based on its on-gain, on-buy, on-trash, etc. abilities. Inn would be a lot worse if not for its on-gain ability; Farmland would be strictly worse than a Duchy if not for its on-buy effect. These cards are priced to include those effects, you should consider them in the rankings.

Because you pay $5 for Inn together with its on-gain ability. You pay $6 for Farmland, and perhaps more relevantly for Border Village, with its on-gain ability. You most often pay $7 for Stonemason with its on-gain ability.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but I think it's an interesting question. If you're going to rank it against the other $2s, you maybe should only be considering the part that you can actually get for $2, which is not an elite ability.

Someone better than I am can maybe argue that I'm underestimating Stonemason's on-play effect, which is possible, but for me it often becomes a dead card.

Stonemason's on-play ability is extremely useful. I agree that it would be a pretty weak card if that were all there was to it, but it's not. I just think it's misleading to rank only the overpay cards based on their on-play effects alone when we take on-gain and on-buy effects into account for everything else. I agree that they present a bit of a conundrum for ranking purposes since you pay so many different amounts for the same card, but at the end of the day it's still essentially an on-buy effect, and as such should be factored into the rankings. I see your issue with ranking it with the $2's, but I don't think it makes any more sense to rank it with other costs, and card rankings will ultimately be flawed no matter what system we use. I just think completely ignoring a component of the card, especially a major component that is usually the card's main purpose, is a bad system.
I think that ranking cards by cost has become less and less significant.
I'd love to see the result of a collective tierization of the cards from the f.ds for. This would be regardless of cost, and mostly based on how deeply their presence affects your strategy.
Tiers could be something like:
F: you could remove this from the kingdom, I'd play exactly the same 99% of the time (eg: Scout)
C: Weakish card, can be useful and even shine, but rarely. (eg: Pirate Ship)
B: Decent card, can be useful and even shine in the right conditions (eg: Village)
A: Strong card, defines a Kingdom and good players will have to consider seriously whether they really want to pass on this. (eg: Witch)
Ü: Almost always a must but, need an excellent reason to pass on this (eg: Rebuild)

This would also have to take into account how some cards (like Thief and Possession) shape the players' strategies even without ever being bought.

(just a random thought, since OP got answered already and the reign of Off Topic has thus begun)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 06:08:44 pm by Accatitippi »
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swedenman

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2015, 08:18:31 pm »
0

Stonemason is not really Tier 1 if you're actually paying $2 for it though. It almost should be compared more to $6+ cards

Stonemason is a $2 card. For $2, you get the Stonemason card along with a sweet deal on other Action cards. That sweet deal is part of the Stonemason card. The extra money you're paying isn't for Stonemason, it's just money spent in conjunction with what is essentially an on-buy effect to gain cards more easily than you otherwise could. True, it doesn't directly compete with $2 cards, but it doesn't really directly compete with anything given its unique gaining ability, so we might as well rank it with the $2's.

You're not telling me anything I don't know--my point was that for its on-play ability alone I consider it far from Tier 1.

So why are you only considering its on-play ability? Every other card is ranked based on its on-gain, on-buy, on-trash, etc. abilities. Inn would be a lot worse if not for its on-gain ability; Farmland would be strictly worse than a Duchy if not for its on-buy effect. These cards are priced to include those effects, you should consider them in the rankings.

Because you pay $5 for Inn together with its on-gain ability. You pay $6 for Farmland, and perhaps more relevantly for Border Village, with its on-gain ability. You most often pay $7 for Stonemason with its on-gain ability.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but I think it's an interesting question. If you're going to rank it against the other $2s, you maybe should only be considering the part that you can actually get for $2, which is not an elite ability.

Someone better than I am can maybe argue that I'm underestimating Stonemason's on-play effect, which is possible, but for me it often becomes a dead card.

Stonemason's on-play ability is extremely useful. I agree that it would be a pretty weak card if that were all there was to it, but it's not. I just think it's misleading to rank only the overpay cards based on their on-play effects alone when we take on-gain and on-buy effects into account for everything else. I agree that they present a bit of a conundrum for ranking purposes since you pay so many different amounts for the same card, but at the end of the day it's still essentially an on-buy effect, and as such should be factored into the rankings. I see your issue with ranking it with the $2's, but I don't think it makes any more sense to rank it with other costs, and card rankings will ultimately be flawed no matter what system we use. I just think completely ignoring a component of the card, especially a major component that is usually the card's main purpose, is a bad system.
I think that ranking cards by cost has become less and less significant.
I'd love to see the result of a collective tierization of the cards from the f.ds for. This would be regardless of cost, and mostly based on how deeply their presence affects your strategy.
Tiers could be something like:
F: you could remove this from the kingdom, I'd play exactly the same 99% of the time (eg: Scout)
C: Weakish card, can be useful and even shine, but rarely. (eg: Pirate Ship)
B: Decent card, can be useful and even shine in the right conditions (eg: Village)
A: Strong card, defines a Kingdom and good players will have to consider seriously whether they really want to pass on this. (eg: Witch)
Ü: Almost always a must but, need an excellent reason to pass on this (eg: Rebuild)

This would also have to take into account how some cards (like Thief and Possession) shape the players' strategies even without ever being bought.

(just a random thought, since OP got answered already and the reign of Off Topic has thus begun)

This would be interesting, but ultimately even that would be problematic. It's just difficult to define what makes one card better than another when you almost always need a variety of kingdom cards to win, as they complement each other. For instance, I hesitate to say Village is a top-tier card because it doesn't do much on its own, but it is very often extremely important and as such it feels wrong to rank it below top-tier. It's just a difficult thing to quantify, and any criteria we establish will have problems.

That being said, I like card rankings, so we should still do them.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 08:19:48 pm by swedenman »
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2015, 03:37:05 pm »
0

Stonemason is not really Tier 1 if you're actually paying $2 for it though. It almost should be compared more to $6+ cards

Stonemason is a $2 card. For $2, you get the Stonemason card along with a sweet deal on other Action cards. That sweet deal is part of the Stonemason card. The extra money you're paying isn't for Stonemason, it's just money spent in conjunction with what is essentially an on-buy effect to gain cards more easily than you otherwise could. True, it doesn't directly compete with $2 cards, but it doesn't really directly compete with anything given its unique gaining ability, so we might as well rank it with the $2's.

You're not telling me anything I don't know--my point was that for its on-play ability alone I consider it far from Tier 1.

So why are you only considering its on-play ability? Every other card is ranked based on its on-gain, on-buy, on-trash, etc. abilities. Inn would be a lot worse if not for its on-gain ability; Farmland would be strictly worse than a Duchy if not for its on-buy effect. These cards are priced to include those effects, you should consider them in the rankings.

Because you pay $5 for Inn together with its on-gain ability. You pay $6 for Farmland, and perhaps more relevantly for Border Village, with its on-gain ability. You most often pay $7 for Stonemason with its on-gain ability.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but I think it's an interesting question. If you're going to rank it against the other $2s, you maybe should only be considering the part that you can actually get for $2, which is not an elite ability.

Someone better than I am can maybe argue that I'm underestimating Stonemason's on-play effect, which is possible, but for me it often becomes a dead card.

Stonemason's on-play ability is extremely useful. I agree that it would be a pretty weak card if that were all there was to it, but it's not. I just think it's misleading to rank only the overpay cards based on their on-play effects alone when we take on-gain and on-buy effects into account for everything else. I agree that they present a bit of a conundrum for ranking purposes since you pay so many different amounts for the same card, but at the end of the day it's still essentially an on-buy effect, and as such should be factored into the rankings. I see your issue with ranking it with the $2's, but I don't think it makes any more sense to rank it with other costs, and card rankings will ultimately be flawed no matter what system we use. I just think completely ignoring a component of the card, especially a major component that is usually the card's main purpose, is a bad system.
I think that ranking cards by cost has become less and less significant.
I'd love to see the result of a collective tierization of the cards from the f.ds for. This would be regardless of cost, and mostly based on how deeply their presence affects your strategy.
Tiers could be something like:
F: you could remove this from the kingdom, I'd play exactly the same 99% of the time (eg: Scout)
C: Weakish card, can be useful and even shine, but rarely. (eg: Pirate Ship)
B: Decent card, can be useful and even shine in the right conditions (eg: Village)
A: Strong card, defines a Kingdom and good players will have to consider seriously whether they really want to pass on this. (eg: Witch)
Ü: Almost always a must but, need an excellent reason to pass on this (eg: Rebuild)

This would also have to take into account how some cards (like Thief and Possession) shape the players' strategies even without ever being bought.

(just a random thought, since OP got answered already and the reign of Off Topic has thus begun)

This would be interesting, but ultimately even that would be problematic. It's just difficult to define what makes one card better than another when you almost always need a variety of kingdom cards to win, as they complement each other. For instance, I hesitate to say Village is a top-tier card because it doesn't do much on its own, but it is very often extremely important and as such it feels wrong to rank it below top-tier. It's just a difficult thing to quantify, and any criteria we establish will have problems.

That being said, I like card rankings, so we should still do them.
I hardly think I'm a serious enough player to do card rankings, but I'm glad that those are being considered again.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2015, 09:20:41 pm »
+1

In tier lists, isn't the rank better than A usually S?
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Seprix

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2015, 01:21:23 am »
+2

A
Chapel
Stonemason
Peasant
Page
Courtyard

B
Hamlet
Lighthouse
Ratcatcher
Candlestick Maker
Fool's Gold

C
Crossroads
Squire
Raze
Native Village
Pawn
Coin of the Realm

D
Cellar
Vagrant
Moat
Embargo
Poor House

E
Haven
Beggar
Herbalist
Pearl Diver

F
Secret Chamber
Duchess
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Roadrunner7671

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Re: Best $1-$2 costing card?
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2015, 03:18:08 pm »
0

A
Chapel
Stonemason
Peasant
Page
Courtyard

B
Hamlet
Lighthouse
Ratcatcher
Candlestick Maker
Fool's Gold

C
Crossroads
Squire
Raze
Native Village
Pawn
Coin of the Realm

D
Cellar
Vagrant
Moat
Embargo
Poor House

E
Haven
Beggar
Herbalist
Pearl Diver

F
Secret Chamber
Duchess
Thanks so much!
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