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[Co0kieL0rd]

People seem to have stopped replying in the thread about my expansion set "Roots and Renewal" That's why I post my new ideas as new topics instead. I will stop it, if my set gets replies again.

Here's a card that's very simple, contrary to my usual designs, but has a unique property; under normal circumstances, there's at most 1 copy of it in the Supply at a time. This implies that you can only buy one copy of it per turn and, more importantly, when you bought a copy, that pile is empty at the end of your turn! So Refugees offers strong pile control by merely existing in the kingdom. Is it balanced? Heck if I knew

Refugees, $4, Action
+2 Cards. Choose one: +$1, or trash a card from your hand.Setup: Put this onto the Refugees mat. At the start of each player’s turn, if the Refugees pile is empty, put a card from the Refugees mat into the Supply.

[LastFootnote]

Interesting. I'm not sure it's a mechanic that will be fun, but it's certainly novel.

[Co0kieL0rd]

Interesting. I'm not sure it's a mechanic that will be fun, but it's certainly novel.

Thanks for your reply, although I was hoping for more before I post more. Anyway, the mechanic might indeed turn out to not be fun. I didn't get to playtest it with people, yet. However, I want to make the card more interesting by

• raising its cost so it's considerably harder to end the game on 3 piles when you are in the lead.
• increasing its power to match the high cost and to make it very compelling to buy and play.
• making you return it to the Supply when you play it. This is to counterbalance its on-play power with the fact that, after playing one copy, from now on there are two copies of it in the Supply, making the 3-pile-ending even harder to achieve.

These objectives led me to this idea (the bottom part is identical to the initial version):

Cardinal, $6, Action
Return this to the Supply. Trash any number of cards from your hand. Gain a Silver per card you trashed, putting them into your hand.[/hr]Setup: Put this onto the Cardinal mat. At the start of each player’s turn, if the Cardinal pile is empty, put a card from the Cardinal mat into the Supply.

Of course, I realise this pretty much guarantees you a Province in a normal starting hand. If it's too strong, even for a one-shot, I might raise its cost to $7 or limit the trashing to up to 3 cards.

And finally, if I change Refugees, I will salvage its top part (which is quite neat imo) and probably put it on Builder.

[ChocophileBenj]

Yeah, the 3-pile ending can come sooo fast this way. I was thinking to City too but it's not relevant unless you can gain one early in your turn and then it buffs cities considerably !

However, for LastFootnote's version, I thought to the "gaining one copy at a time" would be a restriction for a card you likely would like to get several copies of, and AFAIK neither Chapel nor Trading post are. Say a variation of something that DXV proposed once (if I recall correctly) :
$4 : +2 cards, +1 action, discard a card. --- (same setup as Cardinal)

EDIT - didn't read "gain silver into your hand".

[iguanaiguana]

The pile could also start with five copies and then draw from the mat one at a time until the rest are gone. I would think you want to make the card something cheap and desirable in multiples like ironmonger or caravan. I don't like the look of cardinal. It plays like a delayed event and a stronger version of trade at that. 

[Co0kieL0rd]

The pile could also start with five copies and then draw from the mat one at a time until the rest are gone. I would think you want to make the card something cheap and desirable in multiples like ironmonger or caravan. I don't like the look of cardinal. It plays like a delayed event and a stronger version of trade at that.

But that would be completely contradicting two of the aims I had for this concept: (1) there's only one copy of it in the Supply so you cannot get more than one per turn, and (2) if it's cheap, the 3-pile-win is just too easily accessible. Then the card might as well say "In games using this, the game ends on 1 pile less than normal."

[eHalcyon]

And finally, if I change Refugees, I will salvage its top part (which is quite neat imo) and probably put it on Builder.

I think the bottom part is neat.  The top part actually isn't that interesting.  Not sure if you noticed, but it's essentially a buffed Masquerade.

[Co0kieL0rd]

And finally, if I change Refugees, I will salvage its top part (which is quite neat imo) and probably put it on Builder.

I think the bottom part is neat.  The top part actually isn't that interesting.  Not sure if you noticed, but it's essentially a buffed Masquerade.

Of course I noticed I think it's just about as useful and interesting as Steward. I wouldn't use it on its own but its simplicity and shortness makes it very suitable for a card that already has a lot of bottom text, such as Builder.

[eHalcyon]

And finally, if I change Refugees, I will salvage its top part (which is quite neat imo) and probably put it on Builder.

I think the bottom part is neat.  The top part actually isn't that interesting.  Not sure if you noticed, but it's essentially a buffed Masquerade.

Of course I noticed I think it's just about as useful and interesting as Steward. I wouldn't use it on its own but its simplicity and shortness makes it very suitable for a card that already has a lot of bottom text, such as Builder.

OK then!  Be careful of power.  Masquerade would still be strong at $4, and that buff is not trivial.

[Deadlock39]

I don't think an (essentially) 2-pile ending is necessarily too quick. Some boards still wouldn't pile out.  Some boards it would be a real threat, and you would have to watch for it sooner than normal, but is that such a bad thing for a card to do?  Is it that much different from what Stonemason does?  Whether it works and is fun or not, is a matter of designing and playtesting, but I don't think making pile endings more accessible is something that is an unacceptable feature of a card.

[Co0kieL0rd]

OK then!  Be careful of power.  Masquerade would still be strong at $4, and that buff is not trivial.

I am thinking of "+2 Cards. choose one: +$1, or trash a card from your hand." as 1,5 times Steward with less flexibility, which led me to believe it can cost $4 and still have a reaction part that is quite situational. But you're probably a better player than I am so I will be wary of its power.

I don't think an (essentially) 2-pile ending is necessarily too quick. Some boards still wouldn't pile out.  Some boards it would be a real threat, and you would have to watch for it sooner than normal, but is that such a bad thing for a card to do?  Is it that much different from what Stonemason does?  Whether it works and is fun or not, is a matter of designing and playtesting, but I don't think making pile endings more accessible is something that is an unacceptable feature of a card.

So would you say, the original Refugees above is fine? I haven't tested it, I just assumed it makes games end too quickly. Maybe I should not give up on my initial ideas so quickly.

[eHalcyon]

OK then!  Be careful of power.  Masquerade would still be strong at $4, and that buff is not trivial.

I am thinking of "+2 Cards. choose one: +$1, or trash a card from your hand." as 1,5 times Steward with less flexibility, which led me to believe it can cost $4 and still have a reaction part that is quite situational. But you're probably a better player than I am so I will be wary of its power.

Steward is a really strong card too, but the better comparison is still Masquerade.  For this comparison, the passing component of Masquerade isn't important.  In the early game, the passing is generally neutral.  The big thing is that Masquerade's draw and trash enables you to build your deck even while thinning it.  Note that Masquerade is arguably the best $3 card, and I'd expect it to rank well against $4 cards as well.  Also keep in mind that $3 and $4 cards aren't that different in terms of balance (a good part of the difference is whether you want to allow people to double-open with the card).

This effect is Masquerade (minus passing) where you get $1 if you decide not to trash, further boosting its buying power.  That's really good!  $4 is a fine place to start testing that effect even without a bonus reaction.

[Deadlock39]

I don't think an (essentially) 2-pile ending is necessarily too quick. Some boards still wouldn't pile out.  Some boards it would be a real threat, and you would have to watch for it sooner than normal, but is that such a bad thing for a card to do?  Is it that much different from what Stonemason does?  Whether it works and is fun or not, is a matter of designing and playtesting, but I don't think making pile endings more accessible is something that is an unacceptable feature of a card.

So would you say, the original Refugees above is fine? I haven't tested it, I just assumed it makes games end too quickly. Maybe I should not give up on my initial ideas so quickly.

I really hadn't evaluated the card, but just saw you rejecting the idea for a reason I didn't think was a big deal.  Looking at the original card, I see the obvious comparison with Masquerade (that has been pointed out).  My main reaction would be that the one per turn mechanic would be more interesting if it was on a card where that limits you. Masquerade isn't a card that is picked up in multiples very often, so maybe this isn't the best card for it.  Then again, without the required pass, loading up on a ton is probably more reasonable.  I don't see anything that makes me think it needs tweaked before playtesting.

[Asper]

I think the obvious interaction would be to have this support a rush. Quickly gain a few points, empty two piles, buy one of these, Ta-Dah. That would be a bit like what my "Meadow" tried to do back when it trashed Provinces in the supply (it still kind of does that), and obviously some people would totally hate it. Still i like the idea of a card that helps ending the game early being a VP card. Maybe it could be a VP worth less if you ended on piles? I mean, it's always game over if you buy these when two piles are empty. I feel that should mean something...

Either way, i like the general idea. i too have no idea whether it's fun, but in any case it's fresh.

Edit: Also i think it would help "Roots and Renewal" most if you posted your new card ideas there. Makes it pop up in "new replies" lists and stuff.

[Co0kieL0rd]

I think the obvious interaction would be to have this support a rush. Quickly gain a few points, empty two piles, buy one of these, Ta-Dah. That would be a bit like what my "Meadow" tried to do back when it trashed Provinces in the supply (it still kind of does that), and obviously some people would totally hate it. Still i like the idea of a card that helps ending the game early being a VP card. Maybe it could be a VP worth less if you ended on piles? I mean, it's always game over if you buy these when two piles are empty. I feel that should mean something...

I don't like VP penalties and I think it should rather not be a VP card as you would already need to have a points lead before you buy it to end the game. That's why my next idea was to increase its cost so the 3-pile-ending isn't that easy. But that would make rushes harder and maybe you're right and this is supposed to be a rush card. I'm really not sure about its power level, though. How strong should it be? "+2 Cards. Choose one: +$1, or trash a card from your hand." is pretty strong for $4.

Edit: Also i think it would help "Roots and Renewal" most if you posted your new card ideas there. Makes it pop up in "new replies" lists and stuff.

Well, my last two or three posts there were rather big and no one replied so I felt like, maybe the R&R thread has overgrown? The general interest in fan cards has decreased and those people sticking to might be overstrained with how "bloated" my set already is? Anyway, Refugees is definitely meant for Roots and Renewal, as it is another card that manipulates the Supply and thus fits the theme.

[Asper]

Well, my last two or three posts there were rather big and no one replied so I felt like, maybe the R&R thread has overgrown? The general interest in fan cards has decreased and those people sticking to might be overstrained with how "bloated" my set already is? Anyway, Refugees is definitely meant for Roots and Renewal, as it is another card that manipulates the Supply and thus fits the theme.

I think the problem lies with the big posts, not posting in a big thread. But maybe i'm wrong. It's just a bit overwhelming when you post many cards at once. You always feel you should say something about every card (even if you (Cookie Lord) would be happy for replies about a single one), and boy, that takes time... And then there might be card where you don't have an opinion, or don't know what to say, but you want to say something and be helpful with it, so it's time and time and time. Just one card, that's nice, maybe i don't have anything to say, but somebody else might, and when you post another idea i might be the one to have an idea. Having them trickle in is far less overwhelming, to me at least.

But of course you are right, it's probably not relevant for the set. I was more talking about the thread itself: If you post in the thread, it will be pushed to the top and if you don't, well, of course people will forget. Still, totally up to you. I don't mind single threads at all, at least they make it easier to stay on topic.