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Author Topic: A bajillion Possessions  (Read 8316 times)

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sudgy

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A bajillion Possessions
« on: May 20, 2015, 11:32:39 pm »
0

So, if you play a Possession and on that turn you play another Possession, you take the extra turn they control then they take their normal turn, according to the wiki.  What if you played two Possessions, then on their first Possession turn you played a Possession?  I would think they would do their their second turn then you would do your extra turn, but I may be wrong.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

sudgy

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2015, 11:40:52 pm »
0

Other random question I just thought of, that I'm almost certain of the answer to but it's not in the rulebook, so I'll ask.  If I play, say, Ironworks, and gain a card but it goes to the other person because of Possession, I won't get the bonus, right?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Jimmmmm

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2015, 11:45:32 pm »
+5

I'm pretty sure the rules state that if Possession is played a bajillion times the game is immediately over, everybody loses, and no one in the game will play Dominion again for at least 6 months.

I'm not sure about the first question, but the answer to the second question somehow involves a blue dog, but is ultimately, the person who played Ironworks (the possessed) did not gain anything and so gets no bonuses.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2015, 11:49:58 pm »
0

Players are Alice and Bob.
1. Alice's turn.  She plays 2 Possessions.
There are two effects to be resolved now, but both are the same so it doesn't matter which is resolved first.

2. Bob's turn, possessed by Alice.  Bob plays Possession.
There are once again two effects to be resolved, and this time they are different.  How do you decide between them?

I think the official answer is that you break by turn order.  It's still Bob's turn so Bob is first in turn order.  You therefore do Bob's turn first, which is possessed by Alice.  I am not sure if this is actually the answer though.  Stacked Possession (and Outpost) interactions always confused me.

Another possible answer is that both effects are supposed to be resolved "after this turn", which is the same.  When you have multiple effects that trigger at the same time, the current player chooses what to go first.  The current player is Bob and Bob is still possessed by Alice, so Alice decides.

PPE: Jimmm is right about Ironworks.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 11:52:19 pm by eHalcyon »
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AJD

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2015, 11:57:31 pm »
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I believe the answer is, when you play Possession, it inserts a Possession turn immediately between the current turn and whatever turn is supposed to come after it.
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sudgy

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2015, 12:05:01 am »
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I believe the answer is, when you play Possession, it inserts a Possession turn immediately between the current turn and whatever turn is supposed to come after it.

I've always imagined a "extra turn queue" of sorts, where all cards trying to make extra turns are in the queue and are all trying to do it at once (then you choose).  When you've played multiple Possessions and play an Outpost in their first turn, you decide which of the Possession or Outpost turn happen next.  At least I seem to remember hearing that somewhere.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

swedenman

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2015, 01:20:02 am »
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I believe the answer is, when you play Possession, it inserts a Possession turn immediately between the current turn and whatever turn is supposed to come after it.

I've always imagined a "extra turn queue" of sorts, where all cards trying to make extra turns are in the queue and are all trying to do it at once (then you choose).  When you've played multiple Possessions and play an Outpost in their first turn, you decide which of the Possession or Outpost turn happen next.  At least I seem to remember hearing that somewhere.

If there are multiple extra turns to be played "after this turn" then you get to choose the order, I believe, unless an Outpost and Possession were played on the same turn, in which case Outpost happens first. I'm pretty sure that's right.
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AJD

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2015, 01:44:33 am »
0

If there are multiple extra turns to be played "after this turn" then you get to choose the order, I believe, unless an Outpost and Possession were played on the same turn, in which case Outpost happens first. I'm pretty sure that's right.

Sure, but this doesn't answer the question asked. The question is...

Turn A: I play Possession-1 and Possession-2.
Extra Turn 1: I make you play Possession-3.

Which happens first, Extra Turn 2 or Extra Turn 3?
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dane-m

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2015, 02:57:59 am »
0

If there are multiple extra turns to be played "after this turn" then you get to choose the order, I believe, unless an Outpost and Possession were played on the same turn, in which case Outpost happens first. I'm pretty sure that's right.

Sure, but this doesn't answer the question asked. The question is...

Turn A: I play Possession-1 and Possession-2.
Extra Turn 1: I make you play Possession-3.

Which happens first, Extra Turn 2 or Extra Turn 3?
I believe eHalcyon is right, i.e. player order dictates the sequence of extra turns so Player A possesses player B's Extra Turn 2 before Player B possesses player C's Extra Turn 3.  Once all the chain of Possession turns have taken place, Player B's normal turn occurs.

I think I'm also right in saying that if an Outpost is played on any of the Possession turns, then that player's Outpost turn happens before any of the subsequent players' Possession turns, i.e. player order again dictates the sequence of extra turns.  I think there is only a choice to be made when a possessed player plays an Outpost, thereby setting up an Outpost extra turn, and there is still a Possession turn pending on that player.  I don't, however, know which of the possessor and the possessed makes that choice because it's not clear to me precisely when the choice is made.
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swedenman

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2015, 03:47:34 am »
0

If there are multiple extra turns to be played "after this turn" then you get to choose the order, I believe, unless an Outpost and Possession were played on the same turn, in which case Outpost happens first. I'm pretty sure that's right.

Sure, but this doesn't answer the question asked. The question is...

Turn A: I play Possession-1 and Possession-2.
Extra Turn 1: I make you play Possession-3.

Which happens first, Extra Turn 2 or Extra Turn 3?

No, my post did answer that. 2 turns are lined up, so you get to pick which happens first.
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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2015, 09:01:17 am »
0

1. Play Pos1, Pos2
2a. Pos1, Play Pos3
2b. Pos3, Play Pos4
2c. Pos4
3a. Pos2, Play Pos5
3b. Pos5

If Possession sets up "immediately after" played then it will interrupt the Possession in queue.

Otherwise, they get resolved in play order.
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chipperMDW

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2015, 10:22:02 am »
+2

If there are multiple extra turns to be played "after this turn" then you get to choose the order, I believe, unless an Outpost and Possession were played on the same turn, in which case Outpost happens first. I'm pretty sure that's right.

Sure, but this doesn't answer the question asked. The question is...

Turn A: I play Possession-1 and Possession-2.
Extra Turn 1: I make you play Possession-3.

Which happens first, Extra Turn 2 or Extra Turn 3?
I believe:

Turn A: It's your turn.  You play Possession twice.  This sets up two future effects that try to give the other guy an extra (possessed) turn.  At the end of this turn (or between turns), the game decides what the next turn will look like.  There are two future effects trying to give the other guy a turn, so he gets to pick which one happens "first."  It doesn't really matter which he picks because they're both doing the same thing.  (The one that doesn't happen first doesn't get checked again before next turn.)

Extra turn:  It's the other guy's turn, but you're driving.  You make him play Possession.  That sets up a future effect that tries to give you an extra (possessed) turn.  At the end of this turn, the game decides what the next turn will look like.  There are two future effects; one is trying to give the other guy an extra turn, and one is trying to give you an extra turn.  The other guy is the current player, so the turn that happens to him happens "first."  (If there were multiple effects trying to give him an extra turn, you'd be controlling him as "he" made the decision of which one happened first.)

Extra turn:  It's the other guy's turn again, and you're driving again.  You don't make him play any Possessions.  At the end of this turn, the game decides what the next turn will look like.  There's one future effect trying to give you an extra turn.  It happens.

Extra turn:  It's your turn, but the other guy's driving.  He doesn't make you play any more Possessions.  At the end of this turn, the game decides what the next turn will look like.  There are no future effects trying to give people extra turns, so the game does back to alternating between players.  The last regular turn (Turn A) was yours, so the other guy will be taking his regular turn.

Turn B: The other guy finally gets a normal turn.  Luckily, he's drawn three Possessions and two King's Courts.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 11:31:31 am by chipperMDW »
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dane-m

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2015, 12:39:01 pm »
+1

If there are multiple extra turns to be played "after this turn" then you get to choose the order, I believe, unless an Outpost and Possession were played on the same turn, in which case Outpost happens first. I'm pretty sure that's right.

Sure, but this doesn't answer the question asked. The question is...

Turn A: I play Possession-1 and Possession-2.
Extra Turn 1: I make you play Possession-3.

Which happens first, Extra Turn 2 or Extra Turn 3?
I believe:

Turn A: It's your turn.  You play Possession twice.  This sets up two future effects that try to give the other guy an extra (possessed) turn.  At the end of this turn (or between turns), the game decides what the next turn will look like.  There are two future effects trying to give the other guy a turn, so he gets to pick which one happens "first."  It doesn't really matter which he picks because they're both doing the same thing.  (The one that doesn't happen first doesn't get checked again before next turn.)

Extra turn:  It's the other guy's turn, but you're driving.  You make him play Possession.  That sets up a future effect that tries to give you an extra (possessed) turn.  At the end of this turn, the game decides what the next turn will look like.  There are two future effects; one is trying to give the other guy an extra turn, and one is trying to give you an extra turn.  The other guy is the current player, so the turn that happens to him happens "first."  (If there were multiple effects trying to give him an extra turn, you'd be controlling him as "he" made the decision of which one happened first.)

Extra turn:  It's the other guy's turn again, and you're driving again.  You don't make him play any Possessions.  At the end of this turn, the game decides what the next turn will look like.  There's one future effect trying to give you an extra turn.  It happens.

Extra turn:  It's your turn, but the other guy's driving.  He doesn't make you play any more Possessions.  At the end of this turn, the game decides what the next turn will look like.  There are no future effects trying to give people extra turns, so the game does back to alternating between players.  The last regular turn (Turn A) was yours, so the other guy will be taking his regular turn.

Turn B: The other guy finally gets a normal turn.  Luckily, he's drawn three Possessions and two King's Courts.
That seems to agree with what I thought, other than that I didn't know who got to choose the ordering of those turns that weren't predetermined by the game rules.  You are right in your belief that it's the possessor that makes the decisions.  I've just taken a look at The Complete and All-Encompassing Dominion FAQ and it says "If Outpost or Possession is played on a Possession turn, and another turn is in queue to happen (from a card played before this turn), follow 19.4 Timing of several concurrent abilities. As stated there, in between turns the player who last had a turn is considered to be the current player, but if that player was Possessed on that turn, the Possessor still makes decisions for that player between turns (such as whether to play an Outpost turn or Possession turn first)." and references a ruling (http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6917692#6917692) by Donald.
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sudgy

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2015, 01:30:18 pm »
0

This all doesn't say concretely what happens, although I still think it's the earlier Possession turn that happens first before new Possession turn.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

eHalcyon

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2015, 02:51:04 pm »
0

This all doesn't say concretely what happens, although I still think it's the earlier Possession turn that happens first before new Possession turn.

I gave a concrete answer... I guess it was a bit non-committal though.

dane-m's source link is not useful for the original question; it just deals with two effects occurring for the same turn (Outpost vs Possession).  I'm pretty sure you go in turn order when deciding between multiple Possessions of different players.
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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2015, 07:50:44 pm »
+6

Players are Alice and Bob.
1. Alice's turn.  She plays 2 Possessions.
There are two effects to be resolved now, but both are the same so it doesn't matter which is resolved first.

2. Bob's turn, possessed by Alice.  Bob plays Possession.
There are once again two effects to be resolved, and this time they are different.  How do you decide between them?

I think the official answer is that you break by turn order.  It's still Bob's turn so Bob is first in turn order.  You therefore do Bob's turn first, which is possessed by Alice.  I am not sure if this is actually the answer though.  Stacked Possession (and Outpost) interactions always confused me.

Another possible answer is that both effects are supposed to be resolved "after this turn", which is the same.  When you have multiple effects that trigger at the same time, the current player chooses what to go first.  The current player is Bob and Bob is still possessed by Alice, so Alice decides.

PPE: Jimmm is right about Ironworks.

Somewhere in a different city, Charlie is exploiting weaknesses in card encryption to possess both Alice's and Bob's turns.
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Jeebus

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2015, 04:06:05 pm »
+1

dane-m's source link is not useful for the original question; it just deals with two effects occurring for the same turn (Outpost vs Possession).  I'm pretty sure you go in turn order when deciding between multiple Possessions of different players.

The FAQ quoted is supposed to give the answer to all these questions. These questions are way old, going back to the release of Alchemy. Take a closer look at 19.4.

"When an ability or several abilities affect different players at the same time, the abilities are resolved in turn order starting with the current player. Between turns, the player who last had a turn is considered to be the current player. When several abilities affect a player at the same time, he chooses the order of the abilities."

This answers the question. There's also a link there to a post from Donald about the exact question of this thread.

eHalcyon

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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2015, 04:23:04 pm »
0

dane-m's source link is not useful for the original question; it just deals with two effects occurring for the same turn (Outpost vs Possession).  I'm pretty sure you go in turn order when deciding between multiple Possessions of different players.

The FAQ quoted is supposed to give the answer to all these questions. These questions are way old, going back to the release of Alchemy. Take a closer look at 19.4.

"When an ability or several abilities affect different players at the same time, the abilities are resolved in turn order starting with the current player. Between turns, the player who last had a turn is considered to be the current player. When several abilities affect a player at the same time, he chooses the order of the abilities."

This answers the question. There's also a link there to a post from Donald about the exact question of this thread.

Ah, cool.  So my initial guess was correct.  I probably read that thread at some point.
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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2015, 02:41:02 am »
0

Adolf: Plays two Possessions.

Eva (poss. turn): Is told to play a Possession.

The second turn Possessing Eva and the turn Possessing Adolf try to happen at the same time.  Adolf was in control of Eva, but that turn ended, and the next turn has not begun yet, so Eva makes the choice of which to play first. never mind, Donald X ruled differently: Adolf is still in control of Eva until an extra turn actually starts.  So Adolf chooses which happens.

After both happen, Eva takes her normal turn (provided no more Possessions are played).

Other cases:

* Adolf plays 2 Possesions, tells Eva to play an Outpost on the first Possessed turn.  Eva draws 3 cards during clean-up.  Outpost and Possession jockey to go first.  If Outpost is chosen first, Eva gets back control for the Outpost turn, then draws 5 for the Possession turn.  If Possession is chosen first, Adolf controls Eva's 3-card hand, and the Outpost turn never happens.

* Adolf plays 2 Possessions, tells Eva to play an Outpost on the second Possessed turn.  Eva draws 3 card during clean-up, fails to take an Outpost turn, then takes a normal turn with only 3 cards.  Now it's Adolf's turn again.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 02:49:32 am by werothegreat »
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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2015, 09:49:32 am »
0

The second turn Possessing Eva and the turn Possessing Adolf try to happen at the same time.  Adolf was in control of Eva, but that turn ended, and the next turn has not begun yet, so Eva makes the choice of which to play first. never mind, Donald X ruled differently: Adolf is still in control of Eva until an extra turn actually starts.  So Adolf chooses which happens.

No, when abilities affect several players, nobody gets to choose. They are resolved in turn order. Eva was the last player, so her turn (possessed by Adolf) goes first.
Your other examples seem correct.

* Adolf plays 2 Possesions, tells Eva to play an Outpost on the first Possessed turn.  Eva draws 3 cards during clean-up.  Outpost and Possession jockey to go first.  If Outpost is chosen first, Eva gets back control for the Outpost turn, then draws 5 for the Possession turn.  If Possession is chosen first, Adolf controls Eva's 3-card hand, and the Outpost turn never happens.

And Adolf chooses here.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 09:51:49 am by Jeebus »
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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2015, 05:16:47 pm »
+3

I would prefer not having to read those names here. I don't know why you do it, maybe you think it's funny, but I am vaguely offended by it.
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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2015, 06:08:50 pm »
+4

I would prefer not having to read those names here. I don't know why you do it, maybe you think it's funny, but I am vaguely offended by it.
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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2015, 10:59:58 pm »
+1

I would prefer not having to read those names here. I don't know why you do it, maybe you think it's funny, but I am vaguely offended by it.

I just find it more interesting than "Alice and Bob".  And "Adolf" and "Eva" are still used as first names.  At least I didn't say "Hitler and Braun".
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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2015, 07:50:19 pm »
+1

I would prefer not having to read those names here. I don't know why you do it, maybe you think it's funny, but I am vaguely offended by it.

I just find it more interesting than "Alice and Bob".  And "Adolf" and "Eva" are still used as first names.  At least I didn't say "Hitler and Braun".

But Alice and Bob are used because it's easy to remember player order when the names start with A and B.
So you could have at least used Adolf and Benito.
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Re: A bajillion Possessions
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2015, 07:52:22 pm »
+3

I would prefer not having to read those names here. I don't know why you do it, maybe you think it's funny, but I am vaguely offended by it.

I just find it more interesting than "Alice and Bob".  And "Adolf" and "Eva" are still used as first names.  At least I didn't say "Hitler and Braun".

But Alice and Bob are used because it's easy to remember player order when the names start with A and B.
So you could have at least used Adolf and Benito.

Or Adolf and Bdolf.
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