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Author Topic: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion  (Read 12435 times)

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Dubdubdubdub

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Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« on: January 03, 2012, 04:46:08 am »
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Hey everybody, after quite a bit of remodeling and scrapping, I've collected a number of home-made cards for you to enjoy and to review. I hope we can get some interesting ideas from my card suggestions.

The theme is early industrialization. Winds of change are blowing, but many ofter the older Nobles still ignore the new capital that is coming up. Technically, the theme is a mixture of Intrigue, Seaside and a bit of Cornucopia, but none of that was intended. It has cards that care about your hand or the supply, there are a lot of choices and when-you-do's, there are a couple of duration cards... and more! The set isn't finished yet, but I suddenly realized that's no reason not to post it yet. There are 17 cards so far. I think the theme needs some fleshing out, perhaps in the cards that are still to come?

So, feel free to fire at will! I have playtested some of these, but my friends don't really seem to like that as much as I do.


Laborer: my attempt at designing a chainable terminal action. The basis for this card was made by a friend of mine. The image is probably the most industrial in the set.


Renovate: every Dominion expansion needs a Remake-knockoff. Renovate often functions as a Chapel, though.


Park FAQ: as long as there is still a Park in the supply, this is an action card. There are always 10 Parks to set up. The card is not a dual-type.


Theatre: I like Wishing Well, but this will probably feel quite different. There are 17 cards in the supply, and only 1 of them is right. When your top card is a Gold and want it in your hand, what do you say?


Jeweler


Treasure Island Fun Fact: this card was called Sewer for a long while, but it didn't quite add up. Then I started using the Island mat, and it clicked (though it still doesn't really make sense). FAQ: if you put a treasure card on your Island mat with the Island card, it can still be played and trashed by Treasure Island.


Furnace: The first draft for this was designed so that you could keep it in play indefinitely and play it at the start of each turn. You could only reveal 2 cards, though. It was fun and worked well, but there was hardly ever a reason to buy more (or less) than one. That didn't feel right. Oh, and it was called Communism. Not sure why.


Pay Day


Land Run


Inflation: designed by a friend of mine. Simple as it is, it works really well. I'm still afraid it's a lot weaker than Militia, though. Then again: Inflation is spammable, Militia is not (while Cutpurse is semi-spammable).


Earl: possibly my favorite card for now, but I haven't tested it yet. Can you find anything wrong with it? Basically, it says +1 VP token for each victory card in your hand when you gain a victory card. A hand with 4 Earls and a Silver nets 16 VP when you buy an Estate, but I think that is easier said than done.


Sellsword: I have a feeling this has been done before, or something very similar to it. Still, anything wrong with sniper Militia?


Magnate: I guess a Mountebank comparison is inevitable. How does Magnate hold up? It's quite a bit harder to KC, that's for sure.


Stock Market: used to be called Fish Market, because of the Seaside theme, but that just didn't make sense. Initial design by a friend of mine. EDIT: Play Stock Market again at the start of your next turn.


Secret Passage: I like hand control. Hence: Secret Passage, Earl, Jeweler, Pay Day, Laborer.


Writ of Passage: I didn't notice up until now that there are two 'Passages'. Does anyone have a good suggestion? Something a bit more industrial, perhaps?


Diked Marsh: last but not least, a bit of my Dutch heritage.


What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 05:19:09 am by Dubdubdubdub »
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DStu

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2012, 05:16:03 am »
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Just some random thoughts:
Renovate: every Dominion expansion needs a Remake-knockoff. Renovate often functions as a Chapel, though.
Donald says that Chapel for 3 cards was so slow we wouldn't imagine. I'm not sure if the "gain a card equal or cheaper" makes up for it, though of course you could use it mini-Herbalist-style if you have to much money. But that is quite situational, and only a Herbalist...

Quote
Park FAQ: as long as there is still a Park in the supply, this is an action card. There are always 10 Parks to set up. The card is not a dual-type.
Wouldn't it be cleaner to have it Action/Victory all the time and worth 0/2 depending on the game state?

Quote
Theatre: I like Wishing Well, but this will probably feel quite different. There are 17 cards in the supply, and only 1 of them is right. When your top card is a Gold and want it in your hand, what do you say?
Defintitely not "Gold". Not sure if it's good like it is, but the mechanic is interesting...

Quote
Jeweler
probably works.
Quote
Land Run
I'm not sure that gaining an Estate is enough punishment for having a superlab at $4. Especially as trashing them should be quite easy with superlabs.

Quote
Stock Market: used to be called Fish Market, because of the Seaside theme, but that just didn't make sense. Initial design by a friend of mine.
Compared to Mandarin it seems a lot stronger, but on the other hand that's just Mandarin...
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DrHades

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2012, 06:03:01 am »
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Laborer - Very interesting idea! I like it...but I am not sure if it is not too strong...

Renovate - The "put it on top of your deck" part shouldn't be there. It is very strong as it is - it can turn your Estates into something usefull almost like a Remake, it can trash almost as fast as Chapel, it can turn your $5 Actions into Duchies, speed up the game by trashing Province, etc. Combos you should be aware of:

1. Renovate, Province, Province, Province - If your opponent is building up an engine - ouch!
2. Renovate + Fool's Gold - this sounds almost as good as Mint+FG

Park - I think this can only work with come crazy combo. Shall I buy 10 City? Sometimes yes, cause then I have 10 Labs+. Shall I buy 10 Parks? God no! That would make my deck totally unplayable! Ok, so I bought a few as Villages, my opponents too...if there are less than 4 players, this is a Village (or a really stupid trap). If there are 4, it is still probably Village that can change the game completly at one point...but I don't find it interesting enough.

Theatre - Waaaaay too random to my taste.

Jeweler - Too strong I'm afraid...

Treasure Island - I don't like the idea it shares the mat with Island, it should has it own mat. It is an interesting way to get rid of Coppers - I think it should have the same price as the rest of "coppertrashers" (Moneylender, Spice Merchant). But I don't know if it is not too strong/weak, sounds interesting.

Furnace - I like it! Can you show 0 cards? Then you don't discard anything?

Pay Day - Good idea, wrong price. This is a $5 card, just compare it to Merchant Ship and you'll see!

Land Run - This seems too strong for $4, but probably too weak for $5. How about a "You may discard 2 Estates, if you don't" clause?

Inflation - I like this one a lot! :) How about changing it to this: "Gain a Silver in your hand. Each other player gains a Copper."

Earl - Too complicated.

Sellsword - Sounds fun! :)

Magnate - You forget about one thing: When Mountebank is out, most of the people will play it. Let's assume most of the people will play Magnate when he is out. Then everybody will have a lot's of Coppers and will be almost always able to trash some Coppers and give some Coppers sounds like Ambassador to me :) But I am afraid that this card might be broken or just no fun...

Stock Market - This means I will play it at the start of my turn again? So I will lost my only action (if I don't have FV)?

Secret Passage - I think this should have the sam price as Nobles. Looks very good and fun though!

Writ of Passage - Again, I don't like you are using mat of a different card, it should have it's own mat. Sounds interesting.

Diked March - I think nobody would buy this before the game is ending and everyone will do when the game is ending, so it is not interesting enough for me.
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2012, 06:40:59 am »
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Thanks for the input!

Quote
Land Run
I'm not sure that gaining an Estate is enough punishment for having a superlab at $4. Especially as trashing them should be quite easy with superlabs.

Quote
Stock Market: used to be called Fish Market, because of the Seaside theme, but that just didn't make sense. Initial design by a friend of mine.
Compared to Mandarin it seems a lot stronger, but on the other hand that's just Mandarin...

I think both or you are right about Land run. Is it too weak for $5?
I didn't compare Stock Market to Mandarin yet. You are right, it does seem a lot stronger. Maybe the +$3 should be +$2? In that case, it's a Merchant Ship with forced discard you can play any turn, with a Buy you can time whenever you want.
To answer DrHades' question: no, it doesn't cost you your action next turn. It's like Golem, which tells you to play both action cards.


Laborer - Very interesting idea! I like it...but I am not sure if it is not too strong...

Renovate - The "put it on top of your deck" part shouldn't be there. It is very strong as it is - it can turn your Estates into something usefull almost like a Remake, it can trash almost as fast as Chapel, it can turn your $5 Actions into Duchies, speed up the game by trashing Province, etc. Combos you should be aware of:

1. Renovate, Province, Province, Province - If your opponent is building up an engine - ouch!
2. Renovate + Fool's Gold - this sounds almost as good as Mint+FG

Park - I think this can only work with come crazy combo. Shall I buy 10 City? Sometimes yes, cause then I have 10 Labs+. Shall I buy 10 Parks? God no! That would make my deck totally unplayable! Ok, so I bought a few as Villages, my opponents too...if there are less than 4 players, this is a Village (or a really stupid trap). If there are 4, it is still probably Village that can change the game completly at one point...but I don't find it interesting enough.

Theatre - Waaaaay too random to my taste.

Jeweler - Too strong I'm afraid...

Treasure Island - I don't like the idea it shares the mat with Island, it should has it own mat. It is an interesting way to get rid of Coppers - I think it should have the same price as the rest of "coppertrashers" (Moneylender, Spice Merchant). But I don't know if it is not too strong/weak, sounds interesting.

Furnace - I like it! Can you show 0 cards? Then you don't discard anything?

Pay Day - Good idea, wrong price. This is a $5 card, just compare it to Merchant Ship and you'll see!

Land Run - This seems too strong for $4, but probably too weak for $5. How about a "You may discard 2 Estates, if you don't" clause?

Inflation - I like this one a lot! :) How about changing it to this: "Gain a Silver in your hand. Each other player gains a Copper."

Earl - Too complicated.

Sellsword - Sounds fun! :)

Magnate - You forget about one thing: When Mountebank is out, most of the people will play it. Let's assume most of the people will play Magnate when he is out. Then everybody will have a lot's of Coppers and will be almost always able to trash some Coppers and give some Coppers sounds like Ambassador to me :) But I am afraid that this card might be broken or just no fun...

Stock Market - This means I will play it at the start of my turn again? So I will lost my only action (if I don't have FV)?

Secret Passage - I think this should have the sam price as Nobles. Looks very good and fun though!

Writ of Passage - Again, I don't like you are using mat of a different card, it should have it's own mat. Sounds interesting.

Diked March - I think nobody would buy this before the game is ending and everyone will do when the game is ending, so it is not interesting enough for me.

Renovate may not be quite so strong: it has the 'not a victory card'-clause.

Park is hard and definately swingy. I really like the mechanic, though. Is there some fix we can think of? I can't wait to ambassador my only Park in the endgame to bereave my opponent of 14 VP :)

Treasure Island and Writ of Passage used to have their own mats. I changed my mind because I dislike al those mats. Seaside shouldn't have needed that many mats, and Prosperity's Trade Route mat isn't necessary either. I agree that Treasure Island may need to be $4, though.

Furnace: sure you can show 0. Why would you want to?

Pay Day: Good point about Merchant Ship, but don't forget the 'Every other player draws a card'.

Magnate: Good point that many treasures will be out to trash - but I don't really mind. That makes him an upgraded Ambassador and I love Ambassador. I hope to test it soon!

Secret Passage is priced a bit lower than Nobles for 2 reasons: obviously it's worthless when you draw just 1. Besides, you will never be able to play your last Secret Passage.

Diked Marsh: You may be right, but I was actually thinking of a DM-rush, like IGG. That's why it has the +buy, so you can deplete at least a second stack while the DM's are still useful. Is that feasable? Does it need a coin bonus for that? The main difference with IGG is, that IGG gives your opponent crap hands, while DM gives you crap hands.
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DStu

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2012, 06:50:24 am »
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I'm not sure that gaining an Estate is enough punishment for having a superlab at $4. Especially as trashing them should be quite easy with superlabs.
I would have guessed it's still to strong. Without trashing, you have +1Action +3 Card -1 card per time played before, because the Estate/Copper is in your deck. So that's about a Lab. But with trashing you can get rid of it, the first time you play it you don't have any punishment at all. And trashing gets really easy with large hand-sizes, especially if you have some trash-for-benefit liek Remodel/Forge.
Without trashing I tend to think that $5 is the right price, but trashing is not such an weird edge-case that it can be ignored.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2012, 07:19:11 am »
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I actually really like Treasure Island but I don't think it can cost less than $5 simply because a Treasure Island/Silver opening would be huge. Get all my Coppers out of my deck almost immediately and still be able to play them at a time that suits me to get me up to the next price level? Yes please. Every day of the week.
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DrHades

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2012, 07:36:13 am »
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Renovate may not be quite so strong: it has the 'not a victory card'-clause.

Park is hard and definately swingy. I really like the mechanic, though. Is there some fix we can think of? I can't wait to ambassador my only Park in the endgame to bereave my opponent of 14 VP :)

Treasure Island and Writ of Passage used to have their own mats. I changed my mind because I dislike al those mats. Seaside shouldn't have needed that many mats, and Prosperity's Trade Route mat isn't necessary either. I agree that Treasure Island may need to be $4, though.

Furnace: sure you can show 0. Why would you want to?

Pay Day: Good point about Merchant Ship, but don't forget the 'Every other player draws a card'.

Magnate: Good point that many treasures will be out to trash - but I don't really mind. That makes him an upgraded Ambassador and I love Ambassador. I hope to test it soon!

Secret Passage is priced a bit lower than Nobles for 2 reasons: obviously it's worthless when you draw just 1. Besides, you will never be able to play your last Secret Passage.

Diked Marsh: You may be right, but I was actually thinking of a DM-rush, like IGG. That's why it has the +buy, so you can deplete at least a second stack while the DM's are still useful. Is that feasable? Does it need a coin bonus for that? The main difference with IGG is, that IGG gives your opponent crap hands, while DM gives you crap hands.

Renovate - Oh, I missed that one...then it is waaaaay too weak. I like it without putting on the deck and without the victory cards clause. It is a slower Chapel, but it also is usefell in the endgame, it seems good like that.

Park - Ambassador will only think if you have 2 Parks (and both in hand). And I think that every "park idiot" who would try to buy 10 of them would have to lose to a skilled player. And even with some kind of "Bridge and lots of buy endgame 10 Parks purchase" - it is worth as a Tunnel that costs the same...maybe 3VP would change it to playable, or "1VP for every 2 Parks", but I don't like the idea in general

Treasure Island - I don't use the mats at all. I just put the cards somewhere. But I don't think that cards should make a combo because they share a mat...

Furnace - Cause it's duration ;)

Pay Day - Compare Margrave and Council Room - the "everybody draws a card" isn't all that bad! It is a price you pay for the fact that Pay Day gives you Silver over just +$2 (which is most of the times better) and that it WILL give you Golds pretty soon...omg, only it's duration is strictly better than Explorer and the card costs only $3!  ;D Technical: Better wording IMO is "You may reveal a Silver card from your hand. If you do,... Otherwise,... (see Baron)

Secret Passage - Okay, maybe you're right...but this needs some serious testing...

Diked March - I hate IGG  :) As a rush, yeah, it might work, but probably would lose...but it is an ultimate buy at the start of the endgame...also probably combo with Island...

I actually really like Treasure Island but I don't think it can cost less than $5 simply because a Treasure Island/Silver opening would be huge. Get all my Coppers out of my deck almost immediately and still be able to play them at a time that suits me to get me up to the next price level? Yes please. Every day of the week.

Wait whaaaaaa??? I don't have to play them all the next time I play Treasure Island? Oh my god...then this seems to me as a "supermint" and ultimate reaction to Ambassador, Mountebank and Magnate...and maybe too strong even for $5.
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DStu

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2012, 07:48:07 am »
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Thinking a bit more about Theatre, because I like the idea of having to somehow game your opponents to get what you want.

You play a terminal action to get +$3 +card in at most on average* 50%. I think that's too much for being some kind of lucky. Maybe this really works better when it's on a Cantrip, like WW. You don't risk too much buying it, you can play it more often to average out some of the luck if you think you have a strategy how to be better in the metagame than your opponent. There +$3 maybe is too much, maybe just +card or +$1+card would be enough then.

* if your opponent tosses a coin to predict if you lie or not he will be right in 50% of the cases. Maybe he can get some information out of your behaviour (including what you name) and increase this number. Maybe you can also use his attempts to gain the important cards, but only if he does not just toss the coin. So I think a lower bound for 50% successprobability for an opponent playing optimal is reasonable.
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DStu

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2012, 08:00:28 am »
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Wait whaaaaaa??? I don't have to play them all the next time I play Treasure Island? Oh my god...then this seems to me as a "supermint" and ultimate reaction to Ambassador, Mountebank and Magnate...and maybe too strong even for $5.

Wait waaaaa?? You can play the treasure and afterwards move them to the mat? I didn't read it properly and thought that you would remove the treasures from you're next turn (after drawing the new hand) to the mat in your clean-up phase.

'Trashing' cards that already gave you a benefit this round is pretty strong, there are not many cards that do it. Especially if the trashed cards give you another benefit at some time to your will after you 'trashed' them. And then there are the +2cards still. So probably
Silver/TI->Gold ('trash' 4-5Copper) is quite likely to happen in the first  two rounds. The next turn you play TI, you can play the 4-5Copper again, buy another Gold, get some new Coppers to the mat and here you go.
The problem with early Mint in the beginning is that it gets you to a situation where the Coppers are gone, but the Estates are left and you don't have the buying power yet to get to Gold. But with this, you just use your Coppers to buy Gold while setting them aside, use them a second time without them being in your deck to get another Gold, and get rid of them in the moment you don't need them anymore.
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2012, 08:38:47 am »
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Renovate - Oh, I missed that one...then it is waaaaay too weak. I like it without putting on the deck and without the victory cards clause. It is a slower Chapel, but it also is usefell in the endgame, it seems good like that.

Park - Ambassador will only think if you have 2 Parks (and both in hand). And I think that every "park idiot" who would try to buy 10 of them would have to lose to a skilled player. And even with some kind of "Bridge and lots of buy endgame 10 Parks purchase" - it is worth as a Tunnel that costs the same...maybe 3VP would change it to playable, or "1VP for every 2 Parks", but I don't like the idea in general

Treasure Island - I don't use the mats at all. I just put the cards somewhere. But I don't think that cards should make a combo because they share a mat...

Furnace - Cause it's duration ;)

Pay Day - Compare Margrave and Council Room - the "everybody draws a card" isn't all that bad! It is a price you pay for the fact that Pay Day gives you Silver over just +$2 (which is most of the times better) and that it WILL give you Golds pretty soon...omg, only it's duration is strictly better than Explorer and the card costs only $3!  ;D Technical: Better wording IMO is "You may reveal a Silver card from your hand. If you do,... Otherwise,... (see Baron)

Secret Passage - Okay, maybe you're right...but this needs some serious testing...

Diked March - I hate IGG  :) As a rush, yeah, it might work, but probably would lose...but it is an ultimate buy at the start of the endgame...also probably combo with Island...

I actually really like Treasure Island but I don't think it can cost less than $5 simply because a Treasure Island/Silver opening would be huge. Get all my Coppers out of my deck almost immediately and still be able to play them at a time that suits me to get me up to the next price level? Yes please. Every day of the week.

Wait whaaaaaa??? I don't have to play them all the next time I play Treasure Island? Oh my god...then this seems to me as a "supermint" and ultimate reaction to Ambassador, Mountebank and Magnate...and maybe too strong even for $5.

I think Renovate really needs the VP-clause. Trashing 3 provinces to end the game prematurely is just a bit much, I'm afraid. I tested it like that once and to be honest that wasn't so bad. But it could be. I put in the top-deck ability as a little extra. I don't really think the card is that weak, with al those 'mays' on it. Maybe the top-decking should be optional, too? Combo with a couple of Highways and turn all your Estates into top-decked Highways..?

I'm afraid you are right about the 'Park-idiot'. I'd still like a card that turns into VP when the supply dries up, but Village may not be the right one: it's too easy to deplete. Some kind of terminal silver, perhaps?

Good point about Furnace :) Pay Day goes up to $4 - the first of at least 3 cards that need a price increase, it seems. And Diked Marsh/Island sounds wonderful!

Thinking a bit more about Theatre, because I like the idea of having to somehow game your opponents to get what you want.

You play a terminal action to get +$3 +card in at most on average* 50%. I think that's too much for being some kind of lucky. Maybe this really works better when it's on a Cantrip, like WW. You don't risk too much buying it, you can play it more often to average out some of the luck if you think you have a strategy how to be better in the metagame than your opponent. There +$3 maybe is too much, maybe just +card or +$1+card would be enough then.

* if your opponent tosses a coin to predict if you lie or not he will be right in 50% of the cases. Maybe he can get some information out of your behaviour (including what you name) and increase this number. Maybe you can also use his attempts to gain the important cards, but only if he does not just toss the coin. So I think a lower bound for 50% successprobability for an opponent playing optimal is reasonable.

So let's say it's a cantrip. When the guess is incorrect, I also get the second card, +$1? Sounds good to me. I'm not satisfied with Theatre as-is, anyway.

Wait whaaaaaa??? I don't have to play them all the next time I play Treasure Island? Oh my god...then this seems to me as a "supermint" and ultimate reaction to Ambassador, Mountebank and Magnate...and maybe too strong even for $5.

Wait waaaaa?? You can play the treasure and afterwards move them to the mat? I didn't read it properly and thought that you would remove the treasures from you're next turn (after drawing the new hand) to the mat in your clean-up phase.

'Trashing' cards that already gave you a benefit this round is pretty strong, there are not many cards that do it. Especially if the trashed cards give you another benefit at some time to your will after you 'trashed' them. And then there are the +2cards still. So probably
Silver/TI->Gold ('trash' 4-5Copper) is quite likely to happen in the first  two rounds. The next turn you play TI, you can play the 4-5Copper again, buy another Gold, get some new Coppers to the mat and here you go.
The problem with early Mint in the beginning is that it gets you to a situation where the Coppers are gone, but the Estates are left and you don't have the buying power yet to get to Gold. But with this, you just use your Coppers to buy Gold while setting them aside, use them a second time without them being in your deck to get another Gold, and get rid of them in the moment you don't need them anymore.

Wait waaaaa?? Ok, putting the price up to $5 is the least I can do. TI/Silver is definitely overpowered. I also want to limit it at some point: I'm thinking "Play, then trash up to 3 Treasure cards from your Treasure Island mat." Yes, I said it. Treasure Island mat. 3 sounds like a good limit: it is possible to buy Province or Colony with 3 treasure cards, but that would cost you your best treasure cards. And when you TI'd 5 coppers in turn 1, you have to start using them at some point.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2012, 10:25:22 am »
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Park: I love the idea of a card that changes its type! Something you might want for the FAQ though... if you gain the last Park with an Ironworks, what happens? I'm guessing that you will get +1 card, because first you gain it, then you check to see what type it is, and at that point it is a Victory card... even though it was an Action at the moment you chose to gain it....
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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2012, 10:36:45 am »
+4

Park: I love the idea of a card that changes its type! Something you might want for the FAQ though... if you gain the last Park with an Ironworks, what happens?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2012, 10:45:50 am »
+1

I can't wait to ambassador my only Park in the endgame to bereave my opponent of 14 VP :)
I'm pretty sure you can only do that if your opponent happens to have a Lighthouse in play from his last turn... otherwise he will immediately gain the Park you put back, keeping the pile empty (and giving him 2 more points!)
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GendoIkari

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2012, 10:46:15 am »
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Park: I love the idea of a card that changes its type! Something you might want for the FAQ though... if you gain the last Park with an Ironworks, what happens?
A blue dog wags his tail.

 ;D ;D
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2012, 10:54:18 am »
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I can't wait to ambassador my only Park in the endgame to bereave my opponent of 14 VP :)
I'm pretty sure you can only do that if your opponent happens to have a Lighthouse in play from his last turn... otherwise he will immediately gain the Park you put back, keeping the pile empty (and giving him 2 more points!)

Right. My mistake.
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rinkworks

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2012, 11:25:38 am »
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Observation about Land Run:  Whoever is unlucky enough to gain the last Estate with it must also immediately gain a Copper.  That might be interesting, but if you care to fix it, this should work:  "If there are no Estates left in the supply, gain a Copper.  Otherwise, gain an Estate."
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chogg

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2012, 01:34:50 pm »
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Play a few Council Rooms, then a few Sellswords (assuming you've enough actions).  Could brutalize everyone's hand.
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Hks

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2012, 02:34:54 pm »
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Yeah, Sellswords seem to be very strong. And hard to counter, too. Maybe it's better at $6?
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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2012, 02:37:28 pm »
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Yeah, Sellswords seem to be very strong. And hard to counter, too. Maybe it's better at $6?
Eh, it looks strong, possibly stronger than Ghost Ship. But stronger than witch? Is targeted discard really more hurtful than curse-giving, especially given that it's limited to an action? I doubt it.

GendoIkari

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2012, 02:45:27 pm »
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Yeah, Sellswords seem to be very strong. And hard to counter, too. Maybe it's better at $6?
Eh, it looks strong, possibly stronger than Ghost Ship. But stronger than witch? Is targeted discard really more hurtful than curse-giving, especially given that it's limited to an action? I doubt it.

Yeah, I think more often than not, targeted discard isn't going to be worse than a curse. But it also has the potential to hurt a LOT. Just imagine if someone were holding KC + KC + level 3 City, in a deck with either Highway or Bridge. Convoluted, I know. But you have just turned a buy-all-Colonies-at-once turn into a do-nothing-at-all turn.
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chogg

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2012, 04:00:37 pm »
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KC-KC-Council Room-Sellsword.  You now have 13 cards in your hand, one more (KC'ed) action, 4 buys, and you can cripple all opponents' action-based hands.  Moreover, the extra card from Council Room now hurts rather than helps your opponents.  Not sure if that's too powerful; something to consider.
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2012, 04:49:21 pm »
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Observation about Land Run:  Whoever is unlucky enough to gain the last Estate with it must also immediately gain a Copper.  That might be interesting, but if you care to fix it, this should work:  "If there are no Estates left in the supply, gain a Copper.  Otherwise, gain an Estate."
Thanks, Rinkworks, that is better. Will update soon.

About the Sellsword-comments: I'm not sure if it's overpowered, but it does greatly discourage action-heavy decks. The more I think about it, the more boring I think it is. May have to scrap it altogether.

Any other comments? About Earl or Laborer, perhaps? Or some terminal silver Park? I might think up some other cards that explore the design space in cards that care about the supply.
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dondon151

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2012, 05:17:20 pm »
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I think there is some good design space for cards that can target specific cards in an opponent's hand. The only cards that I can think of at the moment that can break an opponent's in-hand combo are Minion and Possession, and I think it's fine to have another way to counter specific combos that are otherwise untouched by conventional discard attacks like Militia or Margrave.

My idea to weaken the card would be to change the wording to:
"Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and sets aside a card that you choose. At the beginning of his next turn, each other player draws cards equal to the number of cards set aside this way, then discards the set aside cards."

Wording is verbose and probably could be improved, but it weakens the card in instances where it could be abused with Council Room and Governor, and it makes it slightly less swingy in general.
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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 06:00:30 pm »
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Pay Day:
I think it is too strong. sure, on the first turn it is played, you only get $2 and everyone else draws a card, but then on the next turn you can get a gold? Maybe if, like Governor, if you got a gold, then everyone else got a silver? Or +1 or 2 cards? And if you got a silver, everyone else would get a copper, making getting a silver clog op the opponents hands, and getting a gold gives them a silver, but, again, it gives you a gold. 
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GendoIkari

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Re: Chimneys and Change - Unfinished fan expansion
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2012, 04:35:45 pm »
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Yeah, Sellswords seem to be very strong. And hard to counter, too. Maybe it's better at $6?
Eh, it looks strong, possibly stronger than Ghost Ship. But stronger than witch? Is targeted discard really more hurtful than curse-giving, especially given that it's limited to an action? I doubt it.

Resurrecting an old topic because of Dark Ages... so we now have a targeted discard for $5. My guess is that Sellswords is more powerful than Pillage. Pillage gives 2 Spoils, can target non-actions, and is a one-shot. Sellswords gives +2 cards.
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