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Author Topic: Venture vs. Witch always wins?  (Read 3749 times)

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brian.marcy

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Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« on: May 13, 2015, 01:52:19 pm »
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I was hoping for some insight on how possible it is to stop a venture BM play with curses.  Would 2x witches have changed anything?  I was using watchtower to top deck golds but, I could have been buying more witches to flood the curses...?


Code: [Select]
Courtyard, Watchtower, Cutpurse, Ironworks, Smithy, Counting House, Venture, Witch, Bank, Expand
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20150513/log.5166594fe4b066caa2e8aa00.1431538427220.txt
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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2015, 02:35:46 pm »
+9

You can't stop your opponent here. The only thing you can do is outrace him.

about the individual cards:
  • Witch is certainly the strongest card in this setting. Getting two looks like a very good plan, getting none pretty bad.
  • Venture is ok if you hit $5 and don't want any more witches but I'd never buy one over a gold.
  • Watchtowers effects help you, but not enough to justify being in your deck. Same goes for Cutpurse
  • Bank I'd never buy here. There are so few hands where it's better then gold, and quite some where it's worse
  • Courtyard is a card you both ignored but actually can be pretty sweet. You get to draw some and then put back that terminal you can't play or money you don't need. If you happen to have a venture in hand you can even put back a bad card at no cost.

about building a deck:
You got too many terminals early, and not enough late. If you add 3 terminals quickly there is a serious risk they collide, and that's only worth it if what they add is also really impressive. Both cutpurses and watchtowers effects are not impressive enough. Later on you can probably have 4 or 5, especially if some of them are courtyards.

-> open silver/courtyard. Get 2 witches asap. Buy lots of silver and gold, or venture if you hit $5. Add another courtyard later. Don't touch any of the other terminals.
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Dingan

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2015, 02:38:27 pm »
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I'd open Silver/Courtyard, get 1 or 2 Witches, probably 1, then rush for Ventures (on 5, 6, or 7) and Provinces (>7).  Idk if a Bank or 2 would be good also.  I'm really not sure about this though.  It's always hard for me to justify letting my opponent give me all the curses if I don't have a way to get rid of them.  Although Venture could be the exception.  So to answer your question, I have no idea.  But that's what I'd do.
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Dingan

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2015, 02:43:32 pm »
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You can't stop your opponent here. The only thing you can do is outrace him.

about the individual cards:
  • Witch is certainly the strongest card in this setting. Getting two looks like a very good plan, getting none pretty bad.
  • Venture is ok if you hit $5 and don't want any more witches but I'd never buy one over a gold.
  • Watchtowers effects help you, but not enough to justify being in your deck. Same goes for Cutpurse
  • Bank I'd never buy here. There are so few hands where it's better then gold, and quite some where it's worse
  • Courtyard is a card you both ignored but actually can be pretty sweet. You get to draw some and then put back that terminal you can't play or money you don't need. If you happen to have a venture in hand you can even put back a bad card at no cost.

about building a deck:
You got too many terminals early, and not enough late. If you add 3 terminals quickly there is a serious risk they collide, and that's only worth it if what they add is also really impressive. Both cutpurses and watchtowers effects are not impressive enough. Later on you can probably have 4 or 5, especially if some of them are courtyards.

-> open silver/courtyard. Get 2 witches asap. Buy lots of silver and gold, or venture if you hit $5. Add another courtyard later. Don't touch any of the other terminals.

I was ninja'd here so didn't see this until after I wrote my response.  I generally agree except I don't see why Bank is that bad here.  With good draw (Courtyard, Witch) and your opponent not cursing you, it seems like Bank would pretty much spike a Province every time you see it.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2015, 03:23:21 pm »
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I feel like there is a lot of hate for Bank. I think it generally doesn't make much of a difference in a deck like the one you are building here. I would probably pick them up on $7.

(Assuming you built the deck Stef described)
I think the situations of note are:
drawn with no treasure - Gold Wins - Get Silver/Estate instead of Nothing
drawn with 1 Copper - Neutral - you get Silver either way.
drawn with 1 Silver - Gold Wins - you get Venture/Duchy instead of Silver
drawn with 1 Gold - Gold Wins - you get Gold instead of Venture (Only a win before you want Duchies)
drawn with 2 Copper 1 Silver - Bank Wins - You get Province instead of Gold/Duchy
drawn with 4 Copper - Bank Wins - You get Province instead of Gold/Duchy

My guess would be that situations that are better with Bank make more of a difference than the ones that arent, but it could be that the Curses here make drawing only 1 or 2 treasures more likely than Bank getting you to Province when Gold wouldn't.

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2015, 03:35:43 pm »
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I feel like there is a lot of hate for Bank. I think it generally doesn't make much of a difference in a deck like the one you are building here. I would probably pick them up on $7.

(Assuming you built the deck Stef described)
I think the situations of note are:
drawn with no treasure - Gold Wins - Get Silver/Estate instead of Nothing
drawn with 1 Copper - Neutral - you get Silver either way.
drawn with 1 Silver - Gold Wins - you get Venture/Duchy instead of Silver
drawn with 1 Gold - Gold Wins - you get Gold instead of Venture (Only a win before you want Duchies)
drawn with 2 Copper 1 Silver - Bank Wins - You get Province instead of Gold/Duchy
drawn with 4 Copper - Bank Wins - You get Province instead of Gold/Duchy

My guess would be that situations that are better with Bank make more of a difference than the ones that arent, but it could be that the Curses here make drawing only 1 or 2 treasures more likely than Bank getting you to Province when Gold wouldn't.

Venture makes it better, too. It also depends on how late it is; Bank is better for the purpose of buying Provinces, Gold is better for the purpose of buying Duchies, so I would probably buy Banks before I start greening and Golds when it looks like I'm going to start buying Duchies soon.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2015, 03:50:24 pm »
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I am not really very familiar with simulation, but I threw this into Dominate:
Code: [Select]
{
  name: 'CourtWitchBank'
  author: 'Deadlock39'
  requires: ["Witch", "Courtyard", "Venture", "Bank"]
  gainPriority: (state, my) -> [
    "Province" if my.getTotalMoney() > 15
    "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 5
    "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
    "Bank"
    "Gold"
    "Witch" if my.countInDeck("Witch") < 2
    "Venture"
    "Courtyard" if my.countInDeck("Witch") == 2
    "Courtyard" if my.countInDeck("Courtyard") < 1
    "Silver"
  ]
}

It beats itself with the "Bank" gain option removed ~53/47.

I might have done something terribly wrong. I just used the Greening rules from DoubleJack, which could be bad.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 03:54:12 pm by Deadlock39 »
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SCSN

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2015, 04:10:41 pm »
+1

I don't think I've ever bought Gold over Bank and I doubt I'll ever do so for reasons other than naming (Fairgrounds) or cost (e.g. remodelling it with Governor into Province).

The decks where Gold is likely to be on average better than Bank are the decks where you don't want to be buying treasures anyway.
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TheOthin

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2015, 05:33:16 pm »
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Courtyard and Witch can only get you to 6 cards here, so it's not as great as it could be. But still, for Bank to be worse than Gold, you need at most one non-Bank Treasure in hand. That doesn't seem too likely. With only two Treasures, you won't be buying a Province at all, although Silver/Bank fails to buy Duchy while Silver/Gold can reach it. Also Silver/Bank/Bank misses Province while swapping out one or both Banks for a Gold will make it there. But you'll still have all your starting Coppers, and having any of them in the mix will put things in Bank's favor if you're getting anywhere at all.
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brian.marcy

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2015, 07:46:43 pm »
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Wow, thanks for all the replies everyone!

  • Watchtowers effects help you, but not enough to justify being in your deck. Same goes for Cutpurse
  • Bank I'd never buy here. There are so few hands where it's better then gold, and quite some where it's worse
  • Courtyard is a card you both ignored but actually can be pretty sweet.
I got a watchtower thinking he might go witch, too.  It wasn't until his buy turn 5 that would indicate he's skipping it.  I guess I could have opened silver and react to what he gets?  I bought the bank because he was, which, in hind sight, is a silly reason.  I got the cutpurse as a means to get to $5 and keep him from getting $5; is this not reasonable justification?  I used to always skip cutpurse until I saw MQ get it in his vids...  As for courtyard, I always seemed to have more than $2 but, I guess it could have been purchased on a $3 or $4.  I'm sure this deck is another case of small misplays early cause big effects later.

You got too many terminals early, and not enough late. If you add 3 terminals quickly there is a serious risk they collide...
Yes, I agree.  I wasn't worried about the collision since WT has its reaction effect.  I don't think I ever used it for draw.  Did I just get very lucky using its top decking?  It seemed to work out well is this atypical...?
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DG

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2015, 09:06:44 pm »
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I got a watchtower thinking he might go witch, too.  It wasn't until his buy turn 5 that would indicate he's skipping it.  I guess I could have opened silver and react to what he gets?

This is adversarial play so it is one of the trickier parts of the game. Here you could have opened watchtower/silver, no cutpurse, and then bought witches. That might have been fine for a 3 or 4 player game.

Yes, I agree.  I wasn't worried about the collision since WT has its reaction effect.  I don't think I ever used it for draw.  Did I just get very lucky using its top decking?  It seemed to work out well is this atypical...?

You have to compare the watchtower firstly to silver. Every time you have a watchtower in hand that you don't play, the silver could have been played for two coins instead. In a big money style game it can really add up.
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brian.marcy

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2015, 09:38:32 pm »
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You have to compare the watchtower firstly to silver. Every time you have a watchtower in hand that you don't play, the silver could have been played for two coins instead. In a big money style game it can really add up.

Thanks for this reminder; don't look at how things worked out beneficially, look for if they could have been more beneficial.  Yeah, each time I bought and top decked a gold, it could have been a province...
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flies

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2015, 09:53:19 pm »
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I got the cutpurse as a means to get to $5 and keep him from getting $5; is this not reasonable justification?  I used to always skip cutpurse until I saw MQ get it in his vids...  As for courtyard, I always seemed to have more than $2 but, I guess it could have been purchased on a $3 or $4.  I'm sure this deck is another case of small misplays early cause big effects later.
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Cutpurse is good at stopping the opponent from hitting $5 early on;  I haven't done the math, but I'm pretty sure it's better than militia for this.  The problem here is that witch is the most important card for your deck (early on), so cutpurse quickly becomes a burden.  Courtyard is less of a problem collision-wise and is far superior to cutpurse for hitting $8 later on (at which point cutpurse hurts also hurts less). 

Learning to evaluate a card in relation to the rest of the kingdom is one of the keys to improving your play. Knowing how strong each card is in general is just the first step.  Cutpurse can be a strong opener, but courtyard is a better opener here because it plays better with witch early and it is stronger late.

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GeoLib

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2015, 11:11:44 pm »
+5

As for courtyard, I always seemed to have more than $2 but, I guess it could have been purchased on a $3 or $4.

Don't assume that because courtyard is $2, it isn't worth picking up for $4. It quite frequently is. This is true in general though. Don't equate cost with power.
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luser

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2015, 04:39:04 pm »
+2

As for courtyard, I always seemed to have more than $2 but, I guess it could have been purchased on a $3 or $4.

Don't assume that because courtyard is $2, it isn't worth picking up for $4. It quite frequently is. This is true in general though. Don't equate cost with power.

Like when stef bough herbalist for 13
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Venescas

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2015, 04:15:46 am »
+1

As for courtyard, I always seemed to have more than $2 but, I guess it could have been purchased on a $3 or $4.

Don't assume that because courtyard is $2, it isn't worth picking up for $4. It quite frequently is. This is true in general though. Don't equate cost with power.

Like when stef bough herbalist for 13

Or how Wandering Winder bought a Copper for $9
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2015, 01:10:22 pm »
+1

-> open silver/courtyard. Get 2 witches asap. Buy lots of silver and gold, or venture if you hit $5. Add another courtyard later. Don't touch any of the other terminals.

I think Watchtower is better than Courtyard here. They net the same amount of cards, but smoothing turns is not as important as blocking Curses here, especially with Venture bridging the gap between Silver and Gold.

But the important point is that you only want one terminal in your opening, since you're going to be adding a couple Witches pretty quickly. So you have to look at all the options and pick the one best card. Sure Cutpurse can often be good, but it is going to quickly turn useless.
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luser

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2015, 05:39:08 pm »
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-> open silver/courtyard. Get 2 witches asap. Buy lots of silver and gold, or venture if you hit $5. Add another courtyard later. Don't touch any of the other terminals.

I think Watchtower is better than Courtyard here. They net the same amount of cards, but smoothing turns is not as important as blocking Curses here, especially with Venture bridging the gap between Silver and Gold.

But the important point is that you only want one terminal in your opening, since you're going to be adding a couple Witches pretty quickly. So you have to look at all the options and pick the one best card. Sure Cutpurse can often be good, but it is going to quickly turn useless.

It doesn't look so. I agree with stef that opening courtyard/silver is optimal, it has best chance of hitting 5 on second shuffle and that its better than watchtower as you could put back witches drawn dead. Watchtower on mirror is weak, as both players deal 5 curses it could stop ~2 curses on average, while courtyard would allow you get more ventures/golds. I would make exception if opponent has 5/2 opening where watchtower is better.

Here opening cutpurse is worse than opening courtyard that is why you shouldn't buy it. without cy cutpurse/silver looks as best opening.

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liopoil

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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2015, 11:36:00 pm »
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No way is courtyard better than Watchtower here. Sure, it's close, but it's pretty clear. Topdecking/blocking > smoothing. Watchtower/Silver is only very marginally less likely to hit 5, if at all.
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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2015, 03:16:11 pm »
+1

Watchtower Silver will always get you a Witch into the next shuffle, unless the last two cards in your deck are Watchtower and money AND you get an unlucky 4/4 instead of 5/3. It's slightly better than double Silver for hitting 5, because you only care about one of your buys (Watchtower) missing the shuffle.

Courtyard Silver is just as likely to get you a Witch in your next two turns, but less likely to get one into your next shuffle: if the Courtyard is in your second hand, you're causing another (small) shuffle, delaying the Witch by a turn on average.

I'm not making a statement about what's the best opening on this board, just clearing up the debate about what gets you a Witch more often.
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Re: Venture vs. Witch always wins?
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2015, 06:11:57 pm »
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It doesn't look so. I agree with stef that opening courtyard/silver is optimal, it has best chance of hitting 5 on second shuffle and that its better than watchtower as you could put back witches drawn dead. Watchtower on mirror is weak, as both players deal 5 curses it could stop ~2 curses on average, while courtyard would allow you get more ventures/golds. I would make exception if opponent has 5/2 opening where watchtower is better.

Here opening cutpurse is worse than opening courtyard that is why you shouldn't buy it. without cy cutpurse/silver looks as best opening.

This just sounds to me like you don't like Watchtower, without a good reason. Courtyard is better at hitting 6, but not better at hitting 5, and hitting 6 is not as important here. Blocking 2 curses is a phenomenal benefit. And there is no way Cutpurse is better than Watchtower. Watchtower can even counter the Cutpurse attack...
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