Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[pedroluchini]

If I buy Inheritance to turn my Estates into Grand Markets, does that mean I can't buy Estates from the Supply if I have Copper in play?

[Jimmmmm]

If I buy Inheritance to turn my Estates into Grand Markets, does that mean I can't buy Estates from the Supply if I have Copper in play?

Hmm... I would suggest that you actually can buy them, since at the point you choose to buy them, they're not yours yet.

[pedroluchini]

Hmm... I would suggest that you actually can buy them, since at the point you choose to buy them, they're not yours yet.

That's what I would think too, but then Inherited Estates do activate when-buy abilities. Where does that leave us?

[Awaclus]

Hmm... I would suggest that you actually can buy them, since at the point you choose to buy them, they're not yours yet.

That's what I would think too, but then Inherited Estates do activate when-buy abilities. Where does that leave us?

When-buy abilities happen directly after you have bought the card, and at that point, it is already yours.

[AJD]

Hmm... I would suggest that you actually can buy them, since at the point you choose to buy them, they're not yours yet.

That's what I would think too, but then Inherited Estates do activate when-buy abilities. Where does that leave us?

When-buy abilities happen directly after you have bought the card, and at that point, it is already yours.

True, but when-trash abilities happen directly after you trash the card, by which point it's no longer yours, but they still work for Inherited Estates.

I've got no idea which way Donald's going to rule on this question.

[Rubby]

Grand Market doesn't have a when-buy ability, so I don't think there's an issue.

"You can’t buy this if you have any Copper in play" can probably be considered not to be an "ability" at all; it's just a restriction on when you can buy it, so your Estates don't gain it just like they don't gain the cost. And even if you do consider it an ability (which would only matter if there were something that let players buy cards directly from each other), that ability would not be gained until you've already bought it.

[chipperMDW]

There's already been a ruling on this: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/18839840#18839840

Yes it isn't yours until bought, and so you can buy one with Copper in play.

When you're making the choice to buy a card, any Estate in the supply is not "yours" yet, so it's just an Estate and isn't Inheriting Grand Market's restriction.  As soon as you make the choice to buy an Estate, it becomes "yours" immediately (before you even gain it), so there's an Estate in the supply that's yours and has any Inherited when-buy abilities (which then trigger).

True, but when-trash abilities happen directly after you trash the card, by which point it's no longer yours, but they still work for Inherited Estates.

The when-trash abilities are carried out after the card moves, but they're triggered before the card moves, at a time when it would still have such abilities.

[Jimmmmm]

Hmm... I would suggest that you actually can buy them, since at the point you choose to buy them, they're not yours yet.

That's what I would think too, but then Inherited Estates do activate when-buy abilities. Where does that leave us?

When-buy abilities happen directly after you have bought the card, and at that point, it is already yours.

True, but when-trash abilities happen directly after you trash the card, by which point it's no longer yours, but they still work for Inherited Estates.

I've got no idea which way Donald's going to rule on this question.

I'm almost certain the ruling will be that you can buy them with Coppers in play. It makes no sense to say you can't buy something just because once you've bought it you won't be able to buy it.

From the FAQ (from the wiki): "An Estate is yours if either it started in your deck, or you gained it or bought it...". Bought it, past tense. You have to have already bought it for the restriction to be in place, at which point it's too late to say you can't.

PPE okay it's settled.

[pedroluchini]

There's already been a ruling on this: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/18839840#18839840

Awesome, thanks!

[swedenman]

The Copper restriction on GM is more of a "when-would-buy" effect than a "when-buy" effect. In that sense it should not be treated like other when-buy effects, that is, triggering after you've bought the card.

[Awaclus]

The Copper restriction on GM is more of a "when-would-buy" effect than a "when-buy" effect. In that sense it should not be treated like other when-buy effects, that is, triggering after you've bought the card.

No, it's more of a "while you have any Copper in play" effect.

[swedenman]

The Copper restriction on GM is more of a "when-would-buy" effect than a "when-buy" effect. In that sense it should not be treated like other when-buy effects, that is, triggering after you've bought the card.

No, it's more of a "while you have any Copper in play" effect.

Well okay, but it could also be interpreted as "When you would buy Grand Market, if you have any Copper in play, instead you don't buy it." It would function the same.

[iguanaiguana]

Dude the card straight up does not say that.

[swedenman]

Dude the card straight up does not say that.

I didn't say that it did.

[pedroluchini]

I'd say "you can't buy this" is its own concept. There are at least two cards and one Event (Grand Market, Contraband, Mission) that make use of it, so we should probably stop defining it in terms of "when you would buy" and instead think of it as an invisible property of each card. It's usually set to "can buy," but certain extraordinary circumstances change it to "can't buy".

[Jimmmmm]

I'd say "you can't buy this" is its own concept. There are at least two cards and one Event (Grand Market, Contraband, Mission) that make use of it, so we should probably stop defining it in terms of "when you would buy" and instead think of it as an invisible property of each card. It's usually set to "can buy," but certain extraordinary circumstances change it to "can't buy".

Such as not having enough coins?

[swedenman]

I'd say "you can't buy this" is its own concept. There are at least two cards and one Event (Grand Market, Contraband, Mission) that make use of it, so we should probably stop defining it in terms of "when you would buy" and instead think of it as an invisible property of each card. It's usually set to "can buy," but certain extraordinary circumstances change it to "can't buy".

Well you can call it whatever you want, it's still the same concept. I described it as a "when-would-buy" effect because that clarifies the timing of the effect relative to the timing of buying the card, which is actually relevant to the Inheritance question.

[chipperMDW]

I'd say "you can't buy this" is its own concept. There are at least two cards and one Event (Grand Market, Contraband, Mission) that make use of it

Yup. The "once per turn" events also make use of that concept.

[Asper]

Hmm... I would suggest that you actually can buy them, since at the point you choose to buy them, they're not yours yet.

That's what I would think too, but then Inherited Estates do activate when-buy abilities. Where does that leave us?

When-buy abilities happen directly after you have bought the card, and at that point, it is already yours.

Seriously, a card is yours when you buy it? What about Trader? I would have bet my right eye a card isn't yours until you gained it. I guess Donald wanted to make sure on-buys still work, but it feels very much against how buying works to me. Makes it even less understandable why he ruled trash-for-benefit the way he did, when the rules there (other than the rules on buying) can easily be interpreted to make Inheritance work how you'd expect...

[Awaclus]

Seriously, a card is yours when you buy it? What about Trader?

It stops being yours if Trader is revealed.

[Asper]

Seriously, a card is yours when you buy it? What about Trader?

It stops being yours if Trader is revealed.

According to the rules, you gain a card after buying it. So, this means i can (for a very short time) own cards in the supply? This feels very unintuitive, to not say "implausible". Also, Donald lists passing, returning and trashing an Estate to make it stop being yours, none of which can be applied to a card you didn't gain before. Why? Obviously because he thinks about gained cards, himself. Looks a lot like this was another "I felt people would think it works this way, so it works this way" ruling. And this makes me sad, because i always kind of admired how Dominion got along without hard-coded interactions - you could always just apply logic to get to the official ruling. I don't see this with Inheritance (or ist older brother BoM), for a lot of interactions.

[GendoIkari]

Seriously, a card is yours when you buy it? What about Trader?

It stops being yours if Trader is revealed.

According to the rules, you gain a card after buying it. So, this means i can (for a very short time) own cards in the supply? This feels very unintuitive, to not say "implausible". Also, Donald lists passing, returning and trashing an Estate to make it stop being yours, none of which can be applied to a card you didn't gain before. Why? Obviously because he thinks about gained cards, himself. Looks a lot like this was another "I felt people would think it works this way, so it works this way" ruling. And this makes me sad, because i always kind of admired how Dominion got along without hard-coded interactions - you could always just apply logic to get to the official ruling. I don't see this with Inheritance (or ist older brother BoM), for a lot of interactions.

I think of buying a card like ordering something online. It's yours as soon as you pay for it, but it's not in your possession until it is delivered, which is when you have gained it.

[Jimmmmm]

Seriously, a card is yours when you buy it? What about Trader?

It stops being yours if Trader is revealed.

According to the rules, you gain a card after buying it. So, this means i can (for a very short time) own cards in the supply? This feels very unintuitive, to not say "implausible". Also, Donald lists passing, returning and trashing an Estate to make it stop being yours, none of which can be applied to a card you didn't gain before. Why? Obviously because he thinks about gained cards, himself. Looks a lot like this was another "I felt people would think it works this way, so it works this way" ruling. And this makes me sad, because i always kind of admired how Dominion got along without hard-coded interactions - you could always just apply logic to get to the official ruling. I don't see this with Inheritance (or ist older brother BoM), for a lot of interactions.

I think of buying a card like ordering something online. It's yours as soon as you pay for it, but it's not in your possession until it is delivered, which is when you have gained it.

And then you don't get to use it until you find someone to play it with you, which is when you draw it.

[Asper]

Seriously, a card is yours when you buy it? What about Trader?

It stops being yours if Trader is revealed.

According to the rules, you gain a card after buying it. So, this means i can (for a very short time) own cards in the supply? This feels very unintuitive, to not say "implausible". Also, Donald lists passing, returning and trashing an Estate to make it stop being yours, none of which can be applied to a card you didn't gain before. Why? Obviously because he thinks about gained cards, himself. Looks a lot like this was another "I felt people would think it works this way, so it works this way" ruling. And this makes me sad, because i always kind of admired how Dominion got along without hard-coded interactions - you could always just apply logic to get to the official ruling. I don't see this with Inheritance (or ist older brother BoM), for a lot of interactions.

I think of buying a card like ordering something online. It's yours as soon as you pay for it, but it's not in your possession until it is delivered, which is when you have gained it.

Hmm... I think this is how ownership in the lagel legal sense works. Maybe you're right. Then again, i'm curious as to what Trader does. Cancel my order?

[GendoIkari]

Seriously, a card is yours when you buy it? What about Trader?

It stops being yours if Trader is revealed.

According to the rules, you gain a card after buying it. So, this means i can (for a very short time) own cards in the supply? This feels very unintuitive, to not say "implausible". Also, Donald lists passing, returning and trashing an Estate to make it stop being yours, none of which can be applied to a card you didn't gain before. Why? Obviously because he thinks about gained cards, himself. Looks a lot like this was another "I felt people would think it works this way, so it works this way" ruling. And this makes me sad, because i always kind of admired how Dominion got along without hard-coded interactions - you could always just apply logic to get to the official ruling. I don't see this with Inheritance (or ist older brother BoM), for a lot of interactions.

I think of buying a card like ordering something online. It's yours as soon as you pay for it, but it's not in your possession until it is delivered, which is when you have gained it.

Hmm... I think this is how ownership in the lagel sense works. Maybe you're right. Then again, i'm curious as to what Trader does. Cancel my order?

Hmm... well canceling the order isn't right, because you don't get your money back. I guess it's like calling up the company and trying to cancel your order. They say "sorry, we have a strict no refunds policy." You demand to speak with a manager. Eventually you get through to someone who says "we just really can't refund your money, but if you really don't want the item any more, then we won't bother shipping it out. And as our way of apologizing for being unable to refund your money, we'll send you a nice piece of silver instead."