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Author Topic: Warrior + Tunnel  (Read 5866 times)

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crlundy

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Warrior + Tunnel
« on: May 12, 2015, 05:38:17 pm »
+4

If someone plays Warrior and I discard Tunnel, then I can reveal Tunnel, gain a Gold, cover up Tunnel, cause Warrior loses track of Tunnel, and make Warrior will fail to trash Tunnel -- right?
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TheOthin

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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2015, 05:40:10 pm »
+2

If someone plays Warrior and I discard Tunnel, then I can reveal Tunnel, gain a Gold, cover up Tunnel, cause Warrior loses track of Tunnel, and make Warrior will fail to trash Tunnel -- right?

Strange as it sounds, yes.
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DrFlux

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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2015, 06:23:29 pm »
0

That is really weird... I guess it makes sense because you aren't allowed to look at cards below the top discard card... Still, it feels... unsatisfying.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2015, 06:49:03 pm »
+1

Why? Tunnel is specifically designed to be a passive defence against certain types of attacks.
The fact that it is doubly effective against Warrior is awesome.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2015, 06:59:01 pm »
+1

Yes, Donald answered this question during some discussion a few weeks ago.
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crlundy

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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2015, 07:16:59 pm »
0

Thanks, everybody!
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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2015, 09:43:21 pm »
+3

That is really weird... I guess it makes sense because you aren't allowed to look at cards below the top discard card... Still, it feels... unsatisfying.

Why? Tunnel is specifically designed to be a passive defence against certain types of attacks.
The fact that it is doubly effective against Warrior is awesome.

It's really weird because it's not obvious to a normal player who isn't super-familiar with the rules and their edge cases, and because the relevant rule (the lose-track rule) isn't in the rule booklet for either Adventures or Hinterlands.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2015, 10:07:36 pm »
0

I was really asking why it was unsatisfying, not why it was weird.

I agree that the lose track rule is complicated and weird for casual players and it's unfortunate that the rule does not appear in some of the rulebooks in which it is needed.
The rule has existed at least as early as Intrigue with Throne Room-Mining Village, although at the time the rulebook just dealt with that one specific interaction instead of explaining the general rule.

The way I see it, casual players have the same options they have with any weird rules issue that comes up playing any game: either they muddle through with whatever interpretation the group can agree on, or they can search online for a ruling. Dominion players have a unique advantage in that the game designer makes himself so readily accessible to rule on these matters, so the chances are that if a casual player does get stuck on a rules question they can probably find the answer online pretty quickly.
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dane-m

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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2015, 01:54:43 am »
0

The way I see it, casual players have the same options they have with any weird rules issue that comes up playing any game: either they muddle through with whatever interpretation the group can agree on, or they can search online for a ruling. Dominion players have a unique advantage in that the game designer makes himself so readily accessible to rule on these matters, so the chances are that if a casual player does get stuck on a rules question they can probably find the answer online pretty quickly.
Though in this instance it might help if someone in the topic mentions the word "Watchtower" (everyone has understood the OP's question correctly even though "Tunnel" has accidentally been repeated instead of "Watchtower").
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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2015, 02:07:06 am »
0

The way I see it, casual players have the same options they have with any weird rules issue that comes up playing any game: either they muddle through with whatever interpretation the group can agree on, or they can search online for a ruling. Dominion players have a unique advantage in that the game designer makes himself so readily accessible to rule on these matters, so the chances are that if a casual player does get stuck on a rules question they can probably find the answer online pretty quickly.
Though in this instance it might help if someone in the topic mentions the word "Watchtower" (everyone has understood the OP's question correctly even though "Tunnel" has accidentally been repeated instead of "Watchtower").

I don't think anybody's talking about Watchtower. They're talking about revealing Tunnel to gain Gold.
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dane-m

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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2015, 06:14:24 am »
0

The way I see it, casual players have the same options they have with any weird rules issue that comes up playing any game: either they muddle through with whatever interpretation the group can agree on, or they can search online for a ruling. Dominion players have a unique advantage in that the game designer makes himself so readily accessible to rule on these matters, so the chances are that if a casual player does get stuck on a rules question they can probably find the answer online pretty quickly.
Though in this instance it might help if someone in the topic mentions the word "Watchtower" (everyone has understood the OP's question correctly even though "Tunnel" has accidentally been repeated instead of "Watchtower").

I don't think anybody's talking about Watchtower. They're talking about revealing Tunnel to gain Gold.
Ah, yes, I see what you mean.  I'd overlooked the obvious and had gone for a more obscure reading of the question.  Doh!  In fact not only was it obscure, it was wrong because of course the gain of Gold with Watchtower (and do I really mean Watchtower? - I'm beginning to doubt my sanity) would only occur once the Tunnel was trashed.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 06:16:53 am by dane-m »
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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2015, 06:17:32 am »
0

The way I see it, casual players have the same options they have with any weird rules issue that comes up playing any game: either they muddle through with whatever interpretation the group can agree on, or they can search online for a ruling. Dominion players have a unique advantage in that the game designer makes himself so readily accessible to rule on these matters, so the chances are that if a casual player does get stuck on a rules question they can probably find the answer online pretty quickly.
Though in this instance it might help if someone in the topic mentions the word "Watchtower" (everyone has understood the OP's question correctly even though "Tunnel" has accidentally been repeated instead of "Watchtower").

I don't think anybody's talking about Watchtower. They're talking about revealing Tunnel to gain Gold.
Ah, yes, I see what you mean.  I'd overlooked the obvious and had gone for a more obscure reading of the question.  Doh!  In fact not only was it obscure, it was wrong because of course the gain of Gold with Watchtower (and do I really mean Watchtower? - I'm beginning to doubt my sanity) would only occur once the Tunnel was trashed.

Do you mean Market Square?
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dane-m

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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2015, 07:28:25 am »
+5

The way I see it, casual players have the same options they have with any weird rules issue that comes up playing any game: either they muddle through with whatever interpretation the group can agree on, or they can search online for a ruling. Dominion players have a unique advantage in that the game designer makes himself so readily accessible to rule on these matters, so the chances are that if a casual player does get stuck on a rules question they can probably find the answer online pretty quickly.
Though in this instance it might help if someone in the topic mentions the word "Watchtower" (everyone has understood the OP's question correctly even though "Tunnel" has accidentally been repeated instead of "Watchtower").

I don't think anybody's talking about Watchtower. They're talking about revealing Tunnel to gain Gold.
Ah, yes, I see what you mean.  I'd overlooked the obvious and had gone for a more obscure reading of the question.  Doh!  In fact not only was it obscure, it was wrong because of course the gain of Gold with Watchtower (and do I really mean Watchtower? - I'm beginning to doubt my sanity) would only occur once the Tunnel was trashed.

Do you mean Market Square?
Yes, that seems likely.  Is there a card that allows one to get a new brain when the old one has been irretrievably trashed?
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2015, 07:33:00 am »
+5

The way I see it, casual players have the same options they have with any weird rules issue that comes up playing any game: either they muddle through with whatever interpretation the group can agree on, or they can search online for a ruling. Dominion players have a unique advantage in that the game designer makes himself so readily accessible to rule on these matters, so the chances are that if a casual player does get stuck on a rules question they can probably find the answer online pretty quickly.
Though in this instance it might help if someone in the topic mentions the word "Watchtower" (everyone has understood the OP's question correctly even though "Tunnel" has accidentally been repeated instead of "Watchtower").

I don't think anybody's talking about Watchtower. They're talking about revealing Tunnel to gain Gold.
Ah, yes, I see what you mean.  I'd overlooked the obvious and had gone for a more obscure reading of the question.  Doh!  In fact not only was it obscure, it was wrong because of course the gain of Gold with Watchtower (and do I really mean Watchtower? - I'm beginning to doubt my sanity) would only occur once the Tunnel was trashed.

Do you mean Market Square?
Yes, that seems likely.  Is there a card that allows one to get a new brain when the old one has been irretrievably trashed?

Hmm. If it's been irretrievably trashed: does it cost less than $3 or more than $6? If it's more than $6, have you tried building a bridge?
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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2015, 04:36:00 pm »
0

How exactly is the lose track rule relevant here? Tunnel didn't move anywhere. Seems like you should need a "lose sight" rule to cover this.

GendoIkari

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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2015, 05:55:51 pm »
+1

How exactly is the lose track rule relevant here? Tunnel didn't move anywhere. Seems like you should need a "lose sight" rule to cover this.

Lose track rule includes lose site. While the card didn't physically move, it was on top of the discard pile and now it's not anymore, so in that since it did move.
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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2015, 01:31:47 pm »
+2

The way I see it, casual players have the same options they have with any weird rules issue that comes up playing any game: either they muddle through with whatever interpretation the group can agree on, or they can search online for a ruling. Dominion players have a unique advantage in that the game designer makes himself so readily accessible to rule on these matters, so the chances are that if a casual player does get stuck on a rules question they can probably find the answer online pretty quickly.
Though in this instance it might help if someone in the topic mentions the word "Watchtower" (everyone has understood the OP's question correctly even though "Tunnel" has accidentally been repeated instead of "Watchtower").

I don't think anybody's talking about Watchtower. They're talking about revealing Tunnel to gain Gold.
Ah, yes, I see what you mean.  I'd overlooked the obvious and had gone for a more obscure reading of the question.  Doh!  In fact not only was it obscure, it was wrong because of course the gain of Gold with Watchtower (and do I really mean Watchtower? - I'm beginning to doubt my sanity) would only occur once the Tunnel was trashed.

Even further to the edge:  I discard Tunnel, reveal Tunnel and gain Gold, then reveal Watchtower to topdeck the Gold.  Did the Gold cover the Tunnel for long enough that the Tunnel isn't trashed?
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werothegreat

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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2015, 01:48:10 pm »
+4

The way I see it, casual players have the same options they have with any weird rules issue that comes up playing any game: either they muddle through with whatever interpretation the group can agree on, or they can search online for a ruling. Dominion players have a unique advantage in that the game designer makes himself so readily accessible to rule on these matters, so the chances are that if a casual player does get stuck on a rules question they can probably find the answer online pretty quickly.
Though in this instance it might help if someone in the topic mentions the word "Watchtower" (everyone has understood the OP's question correctly even though "Tunnel" has accidentally been repeated instead of "Watchtower").

I don't think anybody's talking about Watchtower. They're talking about revealing Tunnel to gain Gold.
Ah, yes, I see what you mean.  I'd overlooked the obvious and had gone for a more obscure reading of the question.  Doh!  In fact not only was it obscure, it was wrong because of course the gain of Gold with Watchtower (and do I really mean Watchtower? - I'm beginning to doubt my sanity) would only occur once the Tunnel was trashed.

Even further to the edge:  I discard Tunnel, reveal Tunnel and gain Gold, then reveal Watchtower to topdeck the Gold.  Did the Gold cover the Tunnel for long enough that the Tunnel isn't trashed?

Yes.  Watchtower's effect happens after the card was gained.  Now if Tunnel said to put the Gold on top of your deck, it would not be lost track of.
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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2015, 12:20:30 am »
0

It's really interesting that the only true "when you gain" is Nomad Camp, because that effect actually happens as you're gaining the card.  All the other ones are really "after you gain" effects; Inn pretty much says this explicitly on the card.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2015, 02:37:22 am »
+2

It's really interesting that the only true "when you gain" is Nomad Camp, because that effect actually happens as you're gaining the card.  All the other ones are really "after you gain" effects; Inn pretty much says this explicitly on the card.

I dunno, when I think of "when X happens, do Y" in a game I automatically think that X happens before you do Y, not that you do Y while X is happening. MTG works this way. Triggered abilities are worded either "when" or "whenever", and the thing has always finished happening before the trigger happens. To do what Nomad Camp does, MTG says "as" instead of "when". So, "As you gain this, put it on top of your deck."

And I don't think it's just MTG and Dominion... games in general, and the English language, usually work that way. "When you get home, please take the trash out." You don't take the trash out as you are arriving at home... you need to first be home.
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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2015, 09:32:24 am »
0

See, I guess I think of gaining as the act of picking the card up from the pile, not the act of putting that card in your discard pile.
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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2015, 01:25:27 pm »
0

See, I guess I think of gaining as the act of picking the card up from the pile, not the act of putting that card in your discard pile.

Ah. Yeah I think it's the act of moving it from the pile to your discard, which is what allows Nomad Camp to be "as you gain", and all other effects to be "when you gain" (which really means "as soon as you have gained").
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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2015, 10:03:06 am »
0

See, I guess I think of gaining as the act of picking the card up from the pile, not the act of putting that card in your discard pile.

The problem is that that makes no sense in a game. It matter where cards are. "After you've picked up a card from the pile, but before you put it anywhere" has little meaning unless we define "in the air" as a location. The act of moving the card is just a physical thing (just like revealing it) that has nothing to with the game state though. The point is just that it changed locations.

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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2015, 12:32:37 pm »
0

Is now the time to reference the old chess joke? WKc1, Qe5, Ra1; BKd3, Pc4: White to play and mate in half a move.
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Re: Warrior + Tunnel
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2015, 12:45:54 pm »
0

Is now the time to reference the old chess joke? WKc1, Qe5, Ra1; BKd3, Pc4: White to play and mate in half a move.

?
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