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Author Topic: Most points without a decision?  (Read 5331 times)

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Jimmmmm

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Most points without a decision?
« on: May 12, 2015, 07:05:40 am »
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What is the highest number of points you can get in a single (non-Possession) turn without deciding to do anything at all?

Entirely trivial decisions such as in which order to play two identical cards are fine, however seemingly trivial decisions such as choosing to play a card, or in which order to play non-identical cards (even if the order doesn't matter), are not allowed.

(You are allowed to choose to end your turn.)
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faust

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2015, 07:09:46 am »
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The solution clearly involves a couple of Princed Throne Rooms, and probably Bishop/Monument for VP, but I don't have the time to work out the details right now.
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DStu

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2015, 08:02:10 am »
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Prince->TR->Golem->[[TR,TR],[TR,TR]]->[Golem->[[CR,CR (draw 2CR and 6Pla)],[TR,TR]->[CR,CR (draw some more Plat and 3 Bishops)]],[play 3 Bishops with the remaing 3 TRs and trash 6 Plat] for 30 points.


feel free to iterate for more
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nate_w

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2015, 08:19:13 am »
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You can also prince throne rooms that remake the banks you've drawn in hand from previous caravans into provinces.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2015, 08:39:19 am »
+1

You can also prince throne rooms that remake the banks you've drawn in hand from previous caravans into provinces.

Do durations resolve before Prince, or do you get to choose the order? Regardless, you can use opponents' Council Rooms etc.

This is the best solution I've come up with, 5 Princed Remakes, turning 10 $7 into Provinces. Only works with 3p+ of course. Actually, if you only Remake into 9 Provinces, you can upgrade your 12 Fairgrounds for a total of 78 points.
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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2015, 08:54:08 am »
+4


Prince->TR->Golem->[[TR,TR],[TR,TR]]->[Golem->[[CR,CR (draw 2CR and 6Pla)],[TR,TR]->[CR,CR (draw some more Plat and 3 Bishops)]],[play 3 Bishops with the remaing 3 TRs and trash 6 Plat] for 30 points.


feel free to iterate for more

You've made the choice of what to trash with Bishop.
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dereeder

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2015, 09:03:38 am »
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With your -2 cost token on P-stone and a hand full of 8 P-stones (from Caravans) plus a single Golem, Prince of TR into Golem-Herald-Develop all the P-stones into Vineyards and SPs or Apothecaries, scoring a bazillion points from a deck stuffed full of actions +/- SR and Gardens. I think that has to beat anything with provinces or bishop.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2015, 09:34:46 am »
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With your -2 cost token on P-stone and a hand full of 8 P-stones (from Caravans) plus a single Golem, Prince of TR into Golem-Herald-Develop all the P-stones into Vineyards and SPs or Apothecaries, scoring a bazillion points from a deck stuffed full of actions +/- SR and Gardens. I think that has to beat anything with provinces or bishop.

Ferry doesn't work on Treasures. It may work with a long Golem/Herald chain, drawing Ferried Alchemists or Familiars before Devoloping each one.
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dereeder

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2015, 09:52:20 am »
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Oops. OK, hand is Pstone1-4, Herald1

Prince-TR1-Herald1

Herald1 (1): draw Golem1, play Highway1, draw Pstone5
Herald1 (2): draw Pstone6, play TR2 on Golem1
Golem1 (1): reveal Herald2, Herald3
Herald2: draw Golem2, play Highway2, draw Pstone7
Herald3: draw Pstone8, play TR3 on Golem2
Golem2 (1):  reveal Develop1, Develop2
Develop1: Pstone1 into Vineyard1, Golem3
Develop2: Pstone2 into Vineyard2, Golem4

Clearly you can pull off 8 vineyards. I'm sure there's a lot to optimize.
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faust

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2015, 10:14:35 am »
+4

I couldn't stop thinking about this, so here's a solution (this yields 1494 points):

Kingdom: Black Market (Bm),Throne Room (Tr), Remake (Rm), Rats (Ra), Bishop (Bi), Herald (He), Golem (Go), Duke (Dk), Fairgrounds (Fa), Prince (Pr), Bane: Smugglers (Sm) // Event: Pathfinding (Shelters/Colonies)

All other kingdom cards are in the Black Market deck. Three player game; the player before you bought the first Fairgrounds (Fa1) on his last turn (and drew it to his hand after cleanup). You own a copy of every available card (including Prizes etc) except Duchy and Fairgrounds. You play an Outpost turn. You have Princed 9 Tr. Your +1 card token is on Bishop. You have 12 Dukes.

Other abbreviations: Duchy (Dc), Platinum (Pl)

Your hand: Go1, Go2, Go3.

Play Tr1
  choose Go1 (trivial)
    reveal Sm1, Sm2
      play Sm1, gain Fa2
      play Sm2, gain Fa3
    reveal Sm3, Sm4
      play Sm3, gain Fa4
      play Sm4, gain Fa5
Play Tr2
  choose Go2 (trivial)
    reveal Sm5, Sm6
      play Sm5, gain Fa6
      play Sm6, gain Fa7
    reveal Sm7, Sm8
      play Sm7, gain Fa8
      play Sm8, gain Fa9
Play Tr3
  choose Go3 (trivial)
    reveal Bi1, Bi2
      play Bi1, draw Pl1, trash Pl1 (+5VP)
      play Bi2, draw Pl2, trash Pl2 (+5VP)
    reveal He1, He2
     play He1, draw Ra1, reveal Re1
       play Re1, trash Ra1
         draw Re2
       gain Dc1, trash Re2, gain Dc2 (+30VP)
     play He2, draw Ra2, reveal Re3
       play Re3, trash Ra2
         draw Ra3
       gain Dc3, trash Ra3 (+14VP)
         draw Go4
       gain Dc4 (+14VP)
Play Tr4
  choose Go4 (trivial)
    reveal Bi3, Bi4
      play Bi3, draw Pl3, trash Pl3 (+5VP)
      play Bi4, draw Pl4, trash Pl4 (+5VP)
    reveal He3, He4
     play He3, draw Ra4, reveal Re4
       play Re4, trash Ra4
         draw Re5
       gain Dc5, trash Re5, gain Dc6 (+30VP)
     play He4, draw Ra5, reveal Re6
       play Re6, trash Ra5
         draw Ra6
       gain Dc7, trash Ra6 (+14VP)
         draw Go5
       gain Dc8 (+14VP)
Play Tr5
  choose Go5 (trivial)
    reveal Bi5, Bi6
      play Bi5, draw Pl5, trash Pl5 (+5VP)
      play Bi6, draw Pl6, trash Pl6 (+5VP)
    reveal He5, He6
     play He5, draw Ra7, reveal Re7
       play Re7, trash Ra7
         draw Re8
       gain Dc9, trash Re8, gain Dc10 (+30VP)
     play He6, draw Ra8, reveal Re9
       play Re9, trash Ra8
         draw Ra9
       gain Dc11, trash Ra9 (+14VP)
         draw Go6
       gain Dc12 (+14VP)
Play Tr6
  choose Go6 (trivial)
    reveal Bi7, Bi8
      play Bi7, draw Ra10, trash Ra10 (+3VP)
        draw Pl7
      play Bi8, draw Bridge, trash Pl7, opponent trashes Fa1 (+5VP)
    reveal He7, He8
      play He7, draw Pl8, reveal Tr7
        play Tr7
          choose Bridge (trivial)
      play He8, draw Sm9, reveal He9
        play He9, draw Sm10, reveal Rogue
          play Rogue, gain Fa1 (no choice due to cost reduction)
Play Tr8
   choose Sm9 (trivial)
     gain Fa10, Fa11
Play Tr9
  choose Sm10 (trivial)
    gain Fa12, gain nothing

This should yield 216VP (as indicated in the +VP above). Each Fairgrounds is worth 106 points if I calculated correctly, and you gained all of them, giving you another 1272VP. You also gained 24 green cards, boosting your single Silk Road by 6 other VP. Overall, you now have gained 1494 points.


PPE: Develop into Vineyards is interesting as well, I wonder which strategy (optimized) would be better.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 09:28:47 am by faust »
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faust

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2015, 10:15:56 am »
0

Oops. OK, hand is Pstone1-4, Herald1

Prince-TR1-Herald1

Herald1 (1): draw Golem1, play Highway1, draw Pstone5
Herald1 (2): draw Pstone6, play TR2 on Golem1
Golem1 (1): reveal Herald2, Herald3
Herald2: draw Golem2, play Highway2, draw Pstone7
Herald3: draw Pstone8, play TR3 on Golem2
Golem2 (1):  reveal Develop1, Develop2
Develop1: Pstone1 into Vineyard1, Golem3
Develop2: Pstone2 into Vineyard2, Golem4

Clearly you can pull off 8 vineyards. I'm sure there's a lot to optimize.

Gaining Golem with Develop doesn't work though, because you choose the order of topdecking.
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dereeder

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2015, 10:54:16 am »
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Then have all the golems in your deck to start with, so develop can't gain a card costing one more than P-stone.  But I think Faust's idea is better.

Edit: although grafting the fairgrounds smuggling and the vineyards developing together is probably better than either.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 10:59:46 am by dereeder »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2015, 12:24:19 pm »
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So a completely different approach that probably doesn't score as high as the stuff being discussed above:

*Disclaimer: Ok, this doesn't work at all, because University's gain is optional. But I already put enough time into calculating this that I'm posting it anyway.*


3 player game so there's 12 of each VP card. You have 6 Princed Throne Rooms and a hand of 6 Universities (due to opponent's Council Room).

The only action card costing up to $5 in the Kingdom is Island; Throne Rooms are already empty (the rest is alternate VPs and Treasures and 6/7 actions).

You have 11 Gardens, 11 Fairgrounds, 11 Silk Roads, 12 Vineyards, and no Islands.

9 unique cards in your deck; 58 total cards in your deck; no other victory cards (so 45 total vp cards).

You have no choice but to play each University twice. Pretending that University's gain isn't optional, you would be forced to gain all 12 Islands.

Points from Islands: 24
Points from Gardens increasing: 22
Points from Faigrounds Increasing: 22
Points from Silk Roads Increasing: 33
Points from Vineyards Increasing: 48

Total points:

149

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jomini

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2015, 01:26:12 am »
0

Needs some work, but 867 seems like a safe lower bound.



Tr and Armory are empty piles. Gardens pile is full. Unless otherwise noted, all other piles have exactly one card remaining.

Prince -> Tr x 9

Hand: Herald x 3
Herald (Play Beggar, gain last 3 coppers, play Explorer, gain last silver, draw C)
Herald (Play Baron, gain last  estate, play Marauder, give out last Ruins, gain Spoils, draw C)
Herald (Play Soothesayer, gain last Gold, give out last Curse, play Pool draw to Armory x6 + Cx6 + S)

Tr -> Armory (gain Garden x2) six times.

Net gain: 12 Gardens, 1 Estate, 3 Coppers, 1 Silver, 1 Gold, 1 Spoils

Max garden value will need some optimizing but I think deck can crest 700 cards easily now for a 6er game with all the bloat possible in the Bm deck. That should make VP gain 70*12 + 22 from Fairgrounds + 4 (Bm Silk Roads ?? would have to calculate a lot if it is better to take this is 3 or cross a breakpoint with the Gardens by having a less fortunate number of VP in the Bm deck) + 1 (Bm Feodum)

If there was a way to gain Armory before Gardens without a choice, it might work to have Prince and Tr be the empty piles and eke out a few more points.


« Last Edit: May 16, 2015, 01:27:23 am by jomini »
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faust

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2015, 09:26:19 am »
0

Needs some work, but 867 seems like a safe lower bound.



Tr and Armory are empty piles. Gardens pile is full. Unless otherwise noted, all other piles have exactly one card remaining.

Prince -> Tr x 9

Hand: Herald x 3
Herald (Play Beggar, gain last 3 coppers, play Explorer, gain last silver, draw C)
Herald (Play Baron, gain last  estate, play Marauder, give out last Ruins, gain Spoils, draw C)
Herald (Play Soothesayer, gain last Gold, give out last Curse, play Pool draw to Armory x6 + Cx6 + S)

Tr -> Armory (gain Garden x2) six times.

Net gain: 12 Gardens, 1 Estate, 3 Coppers, 1 Silver, 1 Gold, 1 Spoils

Max garden value will need some optimizing but I think deck can crest 700 cards easily now for a 6er game with all the bloat possible in the Bm deck. That should make VP gain 70*12 + 22 from Fairgrounds + 4 (Bm Silk Roads ?? would have to calculate a lot if it is better to take this is 3 or cross a breakpoint with the Gardens by having a less fortunate number of VP in the Bm deck) + 1 (Bm Feodum)

If there was a way to gain Armory before Gardens without a choice, it might work to have Prince and Tr be the empty piles and eke out a few more points.


Some issues:

- You're supposed to be playing with BM, so BM must be in the supply. The pile cannot be empty, so you need to empty it before you can play your Armories. There is a workaround if you allow enemy decisions, by playing Saboteur -> $5 cost.
- You cannot play Scrying Pool with a nonempty deck, because you will always have the choice to discard.
- If any Potion costs are in the BM deck, then Potion is in the Supply; another pile hat needs to be emptied. Again Saboteur should work for this.
- If you want a Bane pile, you need to empty that one as well.

The main problem I see is getting these Armories into your hand and still having enough TRs to use. I think the best choice for that is Madman. Maybe incorporate Golem -> Herald, which gives 4 different actions per TR play.

To determine if my solution or yours is better, we'd need to calculate the exact maximum for Gardens though.
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ephesos

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2015, 07:21:16 pm »
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There are now 281 cards in the game with Adventures(according to wiki), which means 8 Fairgrounds are 896 and 12 Fairgrounds are 1344. Probably have to do some work to get Plat/Colony/Potion/Spoils/all Knights in, but whatever. They can probably fit in one set, and if not, probably only knocks Fairgrounds down to 110 each, still respectable.

So buy out the Black Market deck, queue up 10 Princed Upgrades(Bridged in), start your turn with an empty hand(Torturer), and just draw a 5 cost each time with no Gold/other 6 cost left for at least 10 Fairgrounds and 1120 points.

Can probably do a lot better than this, get the last 2 Fairgrounds with Gardens/Vineyard shenanigans tacked on, but it's still a lower bound.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2015, 07:23:46 pm by ephesos »
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faust

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2015, 07:14:33 am »
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There are now 281 cards in the game with Adventures(according to wiki), which means 8 Fairgrounds are 896 and 12 Fairgrounds are 1344. Probably have to do some work to get Plat/Colony/Potion/Spoils/all Knights in, but whatever. They can probably fit in one set, and if not, probably only knocks Fairgrounds down to 110 each, still respectable.

So buy out the Black Market deck, queue up 10 Princed Upgrades(Bridged in), start your turn with an empty hand(Torturer), and just draw a 5 cost each time with no Gold/other 6 cost left for at least 10 Fairgrounds and 1120 points.

Can probably do a lot better than this, get the last 2 Fairgrounds with Gardens/Vineyard shenanigans tacked on, but it's still a lower bound.

Oh, I think I only gave the Fairgrounds 1 point per 5 different cards in my solution; that's obviously bad.
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faust

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2015, 07:16:25 am »
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Fixed now for 1482 points.
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jomini

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Re: Most points without a decision?
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2015, 02:04:07 pm »
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Here is a simpler method that scores 1700 or so:

[Prince -> Tr] x 9
Hand: Rogue x9
Trash: contains Fairgrounds x12 (nothing else)
Opponents: 5, each has two Gardens on deck top
Gardens and Fairgrounds are the only two empty piles.

Gain 12 Fairgrounds from trash with the first 6 Rogues.
Rogue 7 hits your 5 opponents, trashing 5 Gardens on the first play (each player reveals two Gardens), gaining a Gardens on the second
Rogue 8 & 9 gain 4 Gardens

Going with 110 VP per Fairgrounds and 70 per Gardens this works out to be 1670 VP. If we allow for setups (e.g. arbitrary treasure counts) that make Gardens more valuable the gains can be flipped for all 12 Gardens and 5 Fairgrounds (or we can also go after Feoda). This will also allow you to bump up 12 Silk roads by 4 each for another 48 Points, bump up the two pre-owned gardens by 2 points each for another 4 VP.

All told 1700 seems pretty safe without having to be too hinky about what is in the Kingdom.

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