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Author Topic: Feature Request: Timer  (Read 6935 times)

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buggibum

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Feature Request: Timer
« on: January 02, 2012, 04:10:20 am »
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I thought it would be nice to have a countdown of a timer.

Of course optionally and as basic installment sth. like 60 secs per Turn. It puts more pressure on the player and speeds the game more up. It's just an idea i take from online poker tables where the timer dictates speed of game in comparison to real life play.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2012, 04:22:17 am »
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There's already an option to force your opponent to resign if they take too long. Are you requesting that the timer used for this be made visible, or something else?
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buggibum

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 08:06:55 am »
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It's not about resigning. It's about Speed up your turn.

In your case like in chess every one has a time bank of 5 mins. When someone needs more than 30 secs in his turn, the time bank would visibly started. Next time he uses his time bank he only got what he left.

But in my example every one would get 60 secs for his turn. If he doesnt finish his move in this time, his turn will be skipped and the next one follows with his turn. It would definitly speed up the game. Of course the timer shall only be optionally and visbile if the players want to run a fast game and activate timer.

So you can also play online a fast 4player game.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 08:15:17 am »
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I see this causing issues in a Scrying Pool/Pawn/Hamlet game, for example and many others where long turns are a necessary side effect of the optimal strategy on the board, or as another example a Minion/Secret Chamber game where long turns actually occur because your opponent is taking time thinking. I have nothing againt having a timer on each decision, such as the one that currently exists, but I don't think a timer on each turn would be something that enhances my experience on Isotropic at all.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2012, 08:24:06 am »
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It's not about resigning. It's about Speed up your turn.

In your case like in chess every one has a time bank of 5 mins. When someone needs more than 30 secs in his turn, the time bank would visibly started. Next time he uses his time bank he only got what he left.

But in my example every one would get 60 secs for his turn. If he doesnt finish his move in this time, his turn will be skipped and the next one follows with his turn. It would definitly speed up the game. Of course the timer shall only be optionally and visbile if the players want to run a fast game and activate timer.

So you can also play online a fast 4player game.
Skipping turns just destroys the game. If a turn can get skipped, it ain't dominion no more. Consider also that there might be a situation where, rare though it may be, you WANT to skip your turn.
Other than turn-skipping, the only difference your proposal has from what's in place is that the timer is visible and shorter than what's there already.
Also, your description of chess clocks is slightly off.

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2012, 08:40:50 am »
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It is worth remembering that while some people can stare at Dominion for long periods of time there are other players who have families and friends who sometimes need a minute or two of their time. Letting those players  occasionally get away from the keyboard for a couple of minutes seems like a better idea than timing them out.
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buggibum

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2012, 09:45:15 am »
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You all made good points, i havent thought the idea out yet.

Of course it's not the best way to play dominion. The regular way shall be everyone takes the time they need.

I'm thinking of an option where you can have fast 4player games and yes ppl playing those games shall play it with full attention and not watching tv or having a phone conversation while playing. For this option i think it would be neat to have some turbo option. Something like 30secs reaction time if you play massive chains, the counter resets for every action you take to 30secs for instance or more friendly to 60secs. I still believe it's a good idea to follow for optional faster gameplay and i believe it would be used from alot of experienced players.

Of course i understand the point that a skipped turn might lead into resigning anyway... i don't know any other punishment so far.
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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2012, 12:19:10 pm »
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No. Just no.
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ecq

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2012, 06:37:30 pm »
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I'd like this idea as an option, though without the skipping turns thing.  In chess, if your clock runs out, you lose.  Have an option for timed games where each player gets 10 minutes (or whatever seems reasonable).  The game goes on as normal, but if you spend longer than 10 minutes total playing, you lose immediately.  Possession should count against your clock, not the possessed player's.

I like playing quick games because I can play more of them.  I reject games that look like they're going to take forever due to attacks or strategies (I'm looking at you, Scrying Pool).  I've vetoed Hamlet more than once.  It'd be nice to be able to say "I'm looking for a quick game" and hold both players to that.
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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2012, 07:25:27 pm »
+2

Seems like a really bad idea. In online Dominion, a major contributing factor to how long your turns take isn't how long you take thinking, it's what strategy you choose. Hamlet/Library is always going to take a long time, whereas playing Big Money is fast. (That's physical time, not number of turns to win.)

That's a serious, serious difference from your example of chess. In chess, regardless of what strategy you pick, the physical manipulation of chess pieces is always going to take roughly an equal time for you and your opponent. In chess, the time restriction is ONLY on how much time you get to spend thinking about your moves. In Dominion, the amount of time making decisions may, depending on the strategy, be smaller than the time actually implementing it (and some strategies may involve more or less decision-making - unlike in chess, where each player makes one move per turn). Trying to claim that the situation is analogous to chess is disingenuous.
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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2012, 11:11:29 pm »
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I think having a 30sec clock after each reaction is played makes sense. This also will help with when people forget +buys. So, no 60 seconds per turn, but then 30 second per reaction/buy. Then, if you don't make a decision your turn skips. This clock should probably be visible though.
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ecq

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2012, 11:36:09 am »
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Trying to claim that the situation is analogous to chess is disingenuous.

I didn't claim it was analogous to chess.  I said a Dominion clock should work like a chess clock, rules-wise.

And yes, it would mean that a strategy of buying up Pawns, Hamlets, and Scrying Pools would come back to bite you, but that's kind of the point.  It combats a specific problem, which is that it sucks to play against certain strategies, even if you're winning.  If you're playing _-BM, your turns take 5 seconds, then you're stuck waiting.  It also allows you to allot, say, 45 mins to playing and know that you'll get through at least 2 games.

I'd propose an optional timer that you wouldn't even think about in 90% of games, but which would make you think twice about using long-turn strategies.  10 minutes seems roughly right.

As an example, take a look at the following turn log.  I'm Player 1.  I was only 8 points behind going into turn 18.  I had a couple of KCs and a Bishop, so I still had an outside chance of winning.  I count roughly 50 mouse clicks required to get through his turn 20 (some of them by me due to Bishop and Mountebank).  It was outright aggravating.

Code: [Select]
--- Player 1's turn 18 ---
Player 1 plays a Hamlet.
... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
Player 1 plays 2 Coppers.
Player 1 buys a Hamlet.
(Player 1 reshuffles.)
(Player 1 draws: 3 Coppers and 2 Curses.)


--- Player 2's turn 19 ---
Player 2 plays a Scrying Pool.
... getting +1 action.
... revealing a Copper and discarding it.
... making Player 1 discard a Hamlet.
... (Player 2 reshuffles.)
... revealing a King's Court and an Estate and putting them in the hand.
Player 2 plays a Scrying Pool.
... getting +1 action.
... revealing a Bishop and keeping it.
... letting Player 1 keep a Copper.
... revealing a Bishop, a King's Court, and a Gold and putting them in the hand.
Player 2 plays a King's Court.
... and plays a King's Court.
... ... and plays a Hamlet.
... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... and plays the Hamlet again.
... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... and plays the Hamlet a third time.
... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... and plays a Crossroads.
... ... ... Player 2 reveals a Mountebank, 2 Hamlets, a Bishop, an Estate, a Copper, and a Gold.
... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +3 actions.
... ... and plays the Crossroads again.
... ... ... Player 2 reveals a Mountebank, 2 Hamlets, a Bishop, an Estate, a Copper, a Steward, and a Gold.
... ... ... drawing 1 card.
... ... and plays the Crossroads a third time.
... ... ... Player 2 reveals a Mountebank, 2 Hamlets, a Bishop, an Estate, a King's Court, a Copper, a Steward, and a Gold.
... ... ... drawing 1 card.
... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... and plays a King's Court.
... ... ... and plays a Mountebank.
... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... ... ... ... Player 1 discards a Curse.
... ... ... and plays the Mountebank again.
... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... ... ... ... Player 1 discards a Curse.
... ... ... and plays the Mountebank a third time.
... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... ... ... ... Player 1 gains a Copper.
... ... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... ... and plays a Steward.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards.
... ... ... and plays the Steward again.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards.
... ... ... and plays the Steward a third time.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards.
... ... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... ... and plays a Bishop.
... ... ... ... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
... ... ... ... Player 2 trashes a Curse.
... ... ... ... Player 1 trashes a Copper.
... ... ... and plays the Bishop again.
... ... ... ... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
... ... ... ... Player 2 trashes a Copper.
... ... ... ... Player 1 trashes a Copper.
... ... ... and plays the Bishop a third time.
... ... ... ... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
... ... ... ... Player 2 trashes an Estate and gets +1 ▼.
... ... ... ... Player 1 trashes a Copper.
Player 2 plays a Hamlet.
... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
Player 2 plays a Scrying Pool.
... getting +1 action.
... revealing a Silver and discarding it.
... letting Player 1 keep a Copper.
... revealing a Platinum and putting it in the hand.
Player 2 plays a Hamlet.
... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
Player 2 plays a King's Court.
... and plays a Hamlet.
... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
... and plays the Hamlet again.
... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
... and plays the Hamlet a third time.
... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
Player 2 plays a King's Court.
... but plays no action with it.
Player 2 plays 2 Coppers, a Potion, a Gold, and a Platinum.
Player 2 buys a Scrying Pool.
Player 2 buys a Platinum.
Player 2 buys a Tactician.
Player 2 buys a Steward.
(Player 2 reshuffles.)
(Player 2 draws: a Platinum, a Hamlet, a Scrying Pool, a Steward, and a King's Court.)
   

--- Player 1's turn 19 ---
Player 1 does nothing.
(Player 1 draws: 2 Coppers, an Estate, a Curse, and a Silver.)


--- Player 2's turn 20 ---
Player 2 plays a Scrying Pool.
... getting +1 action.
... revealing a Copper and discarding it.
... making Player 1 discard a Hamlet.
... revealing a Mountebank and a Silver and putting them in the hand.
Player 2 plays a Hamlet.
... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
Player 2 plays a Scrying Pool.
... getting +1 action.
... revealing a Copper and discarding it.
... letting Player 1 keep a Curse.
... revealing a Bishop, a King's Court, a Steward, a King's Court, and a Copper and putting them in the hand.
Player 2 plays a King's Court.
... and plays a King's Court.
... ... and plays a King's Court.
... ... ... and plays a Steward.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards.
... ... ... and plays the Steward again.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards.
... ... ... and plays the Steward a third time.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards.
... ... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... ... and plays a King's Court.
... ... ... ... and plays a Scrying Pool.
... ... ... ... ... getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... ... revealing a Tactician and keeping it.
... ... ... ... ... letting Player 1 keep a Curse.
... ... ... ... ... revealing a Tactician and a Gold and putting them in the hand.
... ... ... ... and plays the Scrying Pool again.
... ... ... ... ... getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... ... revealing a Scrying Pool and keeping it.
... ... ... ... ... letting Player 1 keep a Curse.
... ... ... ... ... revealing a Scrying Pool and a Copper and putting them in the hand.
... ... ... ... and plays the Scrying Pool a third time.
... ... ... ... ... getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... ... revealing a Platinum and keeping it.
... ... ... ... ... letting Player 1 keep a Curse.
... ... ... ... ... revealing a Platinum and putting it in the hand.
... ... ... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... ... ... and plays a Hamlet.
... ... ... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... and plays the Hamlet again.
... ... ... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... and plays the Hamlet a third time.
... ... ... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... ... ... and plays a Mountebank.
... ... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... ... ... ... ... Player 1 gains a Copper.
... ... ... ... and plays the Mountebank again.
... ... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... ... ... ... ... Player 1 gains a Copper.
... ... ... ... and plays the Mountebank a third time.
... ... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... ... ... ... ... Player 1 gains a Copper.
... ... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... ... and plays a Steward.
... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... ... ... and plays the Steward again.
... ... ... ... (Player 2 reshuffles.)
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards.
... ... ... and plays the Steward a third time.
... ... ... ... getting +$2.
... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... and plays a King's Court.
... ... ... and plays a Bishop.
... ... ... ... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
... ... ... ... Player 2 trashes a Copper.
... ... ... ... Player 1 trashes a Curse.
... ... ... and plays the Bishop again.
... ... ... ... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
... ... ... ... Player 2 trashes a Copper.
... ... ... ... Player 1 trashes a Copper.
... ... ... and plays the Bishop a third time.
... ... ... ... getting +$1 and +1 ▼.
... ... ... ... Player 2 trashes a Copper.
... ... ... ... Player 1 trashes a Copper.
... ... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... ... and plays a Hamlet.
... ... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
... ... ... and plays the Hamlet again.
... ... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
... ... ... and plays the Hamlet a third time.
... ... ... ... (Player 2 reshuffles.)
... ... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
... ... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... ... and plays a Scrying Pool.
... ... ... ... getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... revealing a Copper and discarding it.
... ... ... ... letting Player 1 keep a Curse.
... ... ... ... (Player 2 reshuffles.)
... ... ... ... revealing a Potion and putting it in the hand.
... ... ... and plays the Scrying Pool again.
... ... ... ... getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... revealing a Copper and keeping it.
... ... ... ... letting Player 1 keep a Curse.
... ... ... ... revealing a Copper and putting it in the hand.
... ... ... and plays the Scrying Pool a third time.
... ... ... ... getting +1 action.
... ... ... ... revealing nothing (no cards).
... ... ... ... letting Player 1 keep a Curse.
... ... ... ... revealing nothing.
... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... and plays a Hamlet.
... ... ... drawing nothing and getting +1 action.
... ... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
... ... and plays the Hamlet again.
... ... ... (Player 2 reshuffles.)
... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
... ... and plays the Hamlet a third time.
... ... ... (Player 2 reshuffles.)
... ... ... drawing 1 card and getting +1 action.
... ... ... discarding 1 card and getting +1 buy.
Player 2 plays 2 Coppers, 2 Platinums, a Silver, a Potion, and a Gold.
Player 2 buys a King's Court.
Player 2 buys a King's Court.
Player 2 buys a King's Court.
Player 2 buys a Hamlet.
Player 2 buys a Hamlet.
Player 2 buys a Hamlet.
Player 2 buys an Estate.
(Player 2 reshuffles.)
(Player 2 draws: a Hamlet, a Steward, 2 King's Courts, and a Bishop.)

Curses, King's Courts, and Hamlets are all gone.
Player 2 wins!
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ecq

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2012, 11:38:43 am »
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tl;dr:  Players should be able to mutually agree that they want to play a quick game, despite slower strategies being available.
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guided

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2012, 11:53:11 am »
+3

And yes, it would mean that a strategy of buying up Pawns, Hamlets, and Scrying Pools would come back to bite you, but that's kind of the point.
If that's the point, I'm 100% against this idea. Optional schmoptional, unless I can set some permanent setting on my account that says "never ever ever ever ever let somebody propose a game to me with this setting for fear I might accidentally accept it".
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dondon151

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2012, 04:42:41 pm »
+1

Why not just play kung-fu Dominion?
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Elyv

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2012, 06:09:10 pm »
+1

Just tab out while he's taking his turn, the game will ping you when you need to do something. I do that quite a bit, sometimes even if the other guy isn't doing a megaturn.
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buggibum

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2012, 07:29:00 pm »
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I like the discussion and i like the arguments you guys brought up.

To bring up the chess example again. Me & Friends played sometimes speed chess where we set the clock to 7 mins per player for instance. So everyone has to make quick decisions and therefore alot of mistakes of course, but our game ended after 14 mins max.
And sometimes yes, the one, who is way behind won that game because of the clock.

So we bring that feature into Dominion, yes, it would be a new experience how to play that game and not as usual where everyone takes the time he needed. And yes it will bite those megaturns because of the time, it just depends on the time you are given. On the other hand time can be rewarded for every action,buy or things like that as a variant.

Maybe 3player and 4player games are becoming more popular when you can guarantee some fast plays.
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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2012, 08:27:38 pm »
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I like the discussion and i like the arguments you guys brought up.

To bring up the chess example again. Me & Friends played sometimes speed chess where we set the clock to 7 mins per player for instance. So everyone has to make quick decisions and therefore alot of mistakes of course, but our game ended after 14 mins max.
And sometimes yes, the one, who is way behind won that game because of the clock.

So we bring that feature into Dominion, yes, it would be a new experience how to play that game and not as usual where everyone takes the time he needed. And yes it will bite those megaturns because of the time, it just depends on the time you are given. On the other hand time can be rewarded for every action,buy or things like that as a variant.

Maybe 3player and 4player games are becoming more popular when you can guarantee some fast plays.
I'll quote another topic subject here.
Quote
Noooooooooooooooooooo

I play chess competitively and I play games with 30 minutes on the clock for each player whole game. No delay setting etc. I always end up with more time than I actually need but play fast just because I know there is a timer. The current timer on Isotropic causes the same thing for me. Adding another one would just make me crazy.

This is such a bad idea and I can't stress it enough. If you are that annoyed by this then just tab out while the opponent takes his turn, or better yet, read a book or an article on DS.com while they take their turn. Maybe even go on the forum. I often read posts here and then make drafts of replies(not enough time to read it over much so I just make a draft so I can look at it more later on) while my opponent is doing his turn. Honestly, a timer is the worst idea I've ever seen for Dominion. Chess, yes, but you don't see every game adopting a timer. Only games that it helps generate more fun for get a timer.

Chess, well, because you need it for keeping opponents from not moving at all. Sports like football , basketball, etc. because it makes it more fun. Dominion because, well I like fast games :3. No. Just no. No other sport of any kind that has a timer and got popular is fast. They all take time. Plus, it causes WAY more frustration than fun.
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buggibum

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2012, 10:55:20 pm »
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We are talking about an optional variant.

Take for instance, one guy is tabbing out while playing while the other one wants a game with full attention. One guy doesn't really care about the time he is playing, the other one cares. Now you have an option where both agrees beforehand if they want that optional fast or regular slow game and both are fine with it.

Now take for instance online poker. You have in online cards play a fast timer like 60secs ticking down while you make your decision while in live play you have alot more time like 10 mins for every turn. Look at online chess for instance. Most online chess games are speed games like 15 minutes for everyone max. There is a difference ppl playing online and live. I stop comparing Dominion to other games, because i dont think it's the same.

Some ppl playing online dont play for socializing like in live play in first place and downtime online doesnt feel that short like in live play. I still think it is an interesting variant to have an option for fast timed online play.
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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 10:58:06 pm »
+1

In none of those games does adding a timer change the actual *strategy* of the game, just how long you have to think about it. That's the fundamental reason that Dominion is different from those other cases.
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buggibum

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2012, 11:31:09 pm »
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There is no doubt it changes the game like the veto button or the points calculator does.

Some like it with veto and some like it with points calculator. I don't. It doesn't mean that this option is not good for isotropic. There are ppl who uses theses options.

90% of players might not use it. Still 10% might use this option.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 11:38:38 pm by buggibum »
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Fabian

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2012, 11:42:37 pm »
+1

There is a lot of doubt in my mind that it changes the game like the veto button or the point calculator, actually. I think you'll have a hard time finding people who agree with you, to be honest. It changes the game in a very very different and fundamental way.

Anyway whatever, as long as you can disable it, I don't exactly mind having more options I suppose (well, that's not true either, but meh). I could probably think of sixteen billion things I'd rather have than a change-the-strategy-of-the-game timer, though. An option for faster paced matches (that is, the time you have until you resign is shortened), I wouldn't mind at all, though I don't think it changes much in practice.

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2012, 11:46:09 pm »
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It changes strategy, the others only change 1) with veto, what cards are picked and 2) with point counter, what the score is so you don't have to count. 3) this changes your strategy to big money all the time. This is when most people quit according to theory in the Big Money article he wrote. I might too if I see this option on Isotropic. Honestly, it really is a Big Money/IGG lover's option.
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rod-

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 12:48:45 am »
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Even my most complicated "play 24 actions in a turn, drawing my entire deck and buying 4-5 new things" turns don't take much more than 40 seconds.  A properly-balanced timer should barely affect a good player playing even the most complicated strategy, except in the case where the player was playing at less than full speed.

A timer should simply un-enable people to play frustratingly slow all the time.
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ecq

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Re: Feature Request: Timer
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 10:45:03 am »
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I'd have to withdraw my support for this feature for technical reasons.  Iso has had some very slow moments in the last few days.  Iso slowness shouldn't be able to force you to forfeit.

Still, I think there's a real problem here.  If the recommended course of action while playing a game is to tab out and do something else for a while, that should be a big red flag.
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