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Author Topic: discussion: seeding  (Read 6520 times)

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-Stef-

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discussion: seeding
« on: May 09, 2015, 02:12:16 pm »
+1

So now that we know it will be single elimination we can start filling in the details.
I don't intend to have a vote about everything, but if you have an opinion please do write about it.
(Not that I don't like votes anymore, it's just that I don't think most of the decisions are interesting enough to justify a vote)

So... we're probably seeding the top-X, but not everyone. I would suggest seeding 16 players if we have something between 64 and 128 participants, maybe seeding 32 if we go above 128?

Why not seed everyone? Well basically I have no good reasons not to, I just know it's common to only seed the top-X and I don't really know why.

What to use for seeding? I would suggest using the isotropish leaderboard and don't really see any other valid options. Not everyone is in the league, you can't poll the goko leaderboard, and the isotropish one is more accurate anyway. We should probably select a date close to the starting date of the tournament on which we will copy the leaderboard and use that one for seeding? We might have a problem if the change MF is preparing breaks the Isotropish leaderboard, because of some fundamental changes to the logs. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it?

It was common to seed not only based on the leaderboard, but also on the previous episode of the tournament. I'd say the last one is sufficiently long ago now that we can ignore that.
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Hugovj

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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2015, 03:13:32 pm »
0

I'd say the top-32 for 128 isn't too crazy, as well as top-64 for 256.

Also, how about a qualifier if we exceed 256 players? I think it's important to include as many players as possible, so I think a qualifier wouldn't be a bad idea.

-Stef-

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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2015, 03:31:28 pm »
+1

I'd say the top-32 for 128 isn't too crazy, as well as top-64 for 256.

Also, how about a qualifier if we exceed 256 players? I think it's important to include as many players as possible, so I think a qualifier wouldn't be a bad idea.

A qualifier? How about just not having a maximum number of participants?

I would be very surprised if we exceed 256 anyway. Above 128 I would already consider really nice.
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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2015, 04:18:53 pm »
0

Well, that would be the same thing, right? I got the impression the precious times, there was a first-come-first-served cap on 256, but I might be mistaken.

liopoil

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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2015, 05:21:28 pm »
+3

I don't think it's common to not seed everyone. Seed everyone! I agree with the iso leaderboard and choosing a date. The fill the bracket in the standard fashion, e.g. for this 16 player bracket:

1 - 16
8 - 9
4 - 13
5 - 12
6 - 11
3 - 14
7 - 10
2 - 15

How would we deal with people 129-255?
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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2015, 12:11:45 pm »
+1

I don't understand why you wouldn't seed as many people as you can. Maybe there's a certain point (i.e. below Iso level 10) where you treat everyone left as in one big vague "low seed" group, but I don't think seeding just 16 people in a 128 man tournament makes sense or is even fair at all. The fairest way to do single elimination is best available vs worst available; any other way to do it kicks good players out of the tournament far earlier than not so good players. In order to properly do this you have to seed as many people as possible.

I would use Isotropic ranks, give people a few days notice to really try and push their rank up if they so choose.
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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2015, 04:32:33 pm »
0

I don't understand why you wouldn't seed as many people as you can. Maybe there's a certain point (i.e. below Iso level 10) where you treat everyone left as in one big vague "low seed" group, but I don't think seeding just 16 people in a 128 man tournament makes sense or is even fair at all. The fairest way to do single elimination is best available vs worst available; any other way to do it kicks good players out of the tournament far earlier than not so good players. In order to properly do this you have to seed as many people as possible.
Well, but fully seeding would eliminate any chance for upsets. Also, I don't think there is a lot of difference between the number 65 and 130, but that might be me. I agree 16 is too little, but I would suggest stopping seeding somewhere, albeit to give the lowest seed some hope of not drawing Stef immediately. That would kind of discourage me. Some level of random draw is better I think.

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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2015, 04:49:40 pm »
+1

I don't see how fully seeding removes upsets. IIRC the first Dominion Strategy tournament was fully seeded and had plenty of upsets.

From what I've seen online, the reason people only partially seed is because the ranking system moves slowly, and full seeding means a lot of the same matchups get played at different tournaments. That's not an issue here because there's many more online games than tournaments, so ranking rises/falls naturally as long as people play online. Since ranking comes primarily from ladder, and not from tournaments, that argument doesn't work anymore.
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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2015, 05:08:02 pm »
0

So... we're probably seeding the top-X, but not everyone. I would suggest seeding 16 players if we have something between 64 and 128 participants, maybe seeding 32 if we go above 128?

Why seeding at all? We no need no Champions League (tm).
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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2015, 07:59:17 pm »
+2

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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2015, 11:20:39 pm »
+1

I would definitely seed everyone, based on isotropish rating.

I find it only fair if the better players get  more favourable matchups early in the tournament. Seeding only the top 32 always leaves the possibility of #33 facing #1 which is just unnecessary and frustrating. And it's so easy to avoid it by seeding everyone.
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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2015, 08:30:34 am »
+5

I don't think you should seed more than the top 50%.
The rating of the bottom say 10% could well be based on very little data.
As such they have a much better chance of them being very strong players than a player rated about 75%. For example a player that only plays RL or casual goko.
Pairing these players against the top 10% seems to be against the point of seeding.
(Assuming we are seeding to try a keep the "stars" in the event longer and have high profile matches near the end of the event. So as to maximise viewer entertainment. (Money in TV sports))
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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2015, 02:01:59 pm »
0

I vote we seed everyone, if only because it means I could sign up and be a really terrible first-round draw for one of the top-seeded players.

(Since I haven't played in months, I assume my rating has fully decayed.)

edit: Apparently Isotropish doesn't really have much of a rating decay. I'm still ranked 21st on the all-time leaderboard there. Damn.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 02:08:49 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2015, 03:20:14 pm »
0

Will I get seeded even if i don't play on 2.0
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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2015, 03:59:50 pm »
0

The seeding is based on the isotropish leaderboard which only takes the Goko games into account.
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Davio

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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2015, 09:40:38 am »
0

Tennis majors seed 32/128, so 1/4th.

And here's an idea: Put everyone in brackets by timezone to make it easier for the players to find a date and time to play early matches.
Every bracket would have 8 seeded players and 24 unseeded, so that's 8 matches which could be awkward due to scheduling issues, but the other 8 should be done pretty quickly if players are online at the same times anyway.
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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2015, 10:54:47 am »
0

Tennis majors seed 32/128, so 1/4th.

And here's an idea: Put everyone in brackets by timezone to make it easier for the players to find a date and time to play early matches.
Every bracket would have 8 seeded players and 24 unseeded, so that's 8 matches which could be awkward due to scheduling issues, but the other 8 should be done pretty quickly if players are online at the same times anyway.

Too late... :(
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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2015, 03:25:21 pm »
0

Seed everyone! If that doesn't happen, what happens to the people who don't get seeded?
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Hugovj

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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2015, 03:27:53 pm »
0

Seed everyone! If that doesn't happen, what happens to the people who don't get seeded?
Those would have been drawn randomly to 'fill the gaps'. Like:
Seeds: 1, 2, 3, 4
Unseeded: 5, 6, 7, 8

1-6
4-7
3-8
2-5

Like that.

Anyway, that's not important now ;)

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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2015, 03:46:20 pm »
+1

Seed everyone! If that doesn't happen, what happens to the people who don't get seeded?
Those would have been drawn randomly to 'fill the gaps'. Like:
Seeds: 1, 2, 3, 4
Unseeded: 5, 6, 7, 8

1-6
4-7
3-8
2-5

Like that.

Anyway, that's not important now ;)
If the unseeded people win, do they become seeded?
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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2015, 04:01:32 pm »
0


If the unseeded people win, do they become seeded?

I think you're misunderstanding what's going on here. It's not that "unseeded players" are in a separate bracket or something. They're just not organized into specific slots in the bracket like seeded players are. Once they're put into the bracket, that's where they are.
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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2015, 04:02:46 pm »
+3


If the unseeded people win, do they become seeded?

I think you're misunderstanding what's going on here. It's not that "unseeded players" are in a separate bracket or something. They're just not organized into specific slots in the bracket like seeded players are. Once they're put into the bracket, that's where they are.

I think you misunderstood the philosophical nature of his question, Drab.  It's like, if you kill a Jedi, doesn't that make you a Jedi?  On some level the answer is always yes.
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Hugovj

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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2015, 04:04:29 pm »
+1


If the unseeded people win, do they become seeded?

I think you're misunderstanding what's going on here. It's not that "unseeded players" are in a separate bracket or something. They're just not organized into specific slots in the bracket like seeded players are. Once they're put into the bracket, that's where they are.

I think you misunderstood the philosophical nature of his question, Drab.  It's like, if you kill a Jedi, doesn't that make you a Jedi?  On some level the answer is always yes.
I think you misunderstood the number of questions this reaction has forced me to ask myself.

Hugovj

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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2015, 04:05:49 pm »
0

Seed everyone! If that doesn't happen, what happens to the people who don't get seeded?
Those would have been drawn randomly to 'fill the gaps'. Like:
Seeds: 1, 2, 3, 4
Unseeded: 5, 6, 7, 8

1-6
4-7
3-8
2-5

Like that.

Anyway, that's not important now ;)
If the unseeded people win, do they become seeded?

Like what Drab said, the winners would go on: 6 v 7, 8 v 5. There is no further seeding. Look at a full tennis schedule if you want to see this system at work.

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Re: discussion: seeding
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2015, 05:03:06 pm »
0

Seed everyone! If that doesn't happen, what happens to the people who don't get seeded?
Those would have been drawn randomly to 'fill the gaps'. Like:
Seeds: 1, 2, 3, 4
Unseeded: 5, 6, 7, 8

1-6
4-7
3-8
2-5

Like that.

Anyway, that's not important now ;)
If the unseeded people win, do they become seeded?

Like what Drab said, the winners would go on: 6 v 7, 8 v 5. There is no further seeding. Look at a full tennis schedule if you want to see this system at work.
Ah, I see. Thank you!
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