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[dane-m]

Help!  I've come to the conclusion that I no longer seem to be able to make sense of the timing of "when you trash" for certain cards.  I must be missing some important point, but I can't see what it is.

My problems started when I read through various topics that discussed the exact timing of "when you gain" and its consequences.  I was prompted to do so because in the topic on exchanging Travellers (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13166.msg489093#msg489093) Jeebus makes use of that to establish the exact timing of "when you discard" for exchanging Travellers.  Along the way I also encountered various examples that were given of the timing of "when you trash".  In case my problems stem from misunderstanding any of what I've read this morning, I'd better start by summarising what I think I've learnt:

• "When you gain" occurs when the gain completes.  One of the consequences is that Watchtower moves the card from the location to which it was originally gained as opposed to intercepting it en route and redirecting it.
• "When you discard" occurs when the discard completes.  One of the consequences is that BoM-Page is on the discard pile (and hence a BoM capable of being returned to its own pile rather than incapable of being returned to the Page pile) when the exchange takes place.
• "When you trash" occurs when the trash completes.  So technically a trashed Fortress goes to the trash pile before being returned to hand.

My problem is that I now don't understand how BoM-(card-with-on-trash-ability) and Estate-Inherit-(card-with-on-trash-ability) manage to make use of the on-trash ability.  Although in the above I've deliberately used the word "occurs" rather than "triggers", my current understanding is based on the assumption that "occurs" and "triggers" are identical, in which case I draw the conclusion that BoM-(card-with-on-trash-ability) and Estate-Inherit-(card-with-on-trash-ability) have already become BoM and Estate respectively by the time I check for on-trash ability so there no longer is one.  What am I missing?

At one stage I thought I'd managed to work out what I was getting wrong, but the explanation to myself didn't quite seem to hold water.  My attempted revised understanding was that on-trash abilities were checked for at the start of the trashing process, so BoM would still be in play and the Estate would still be mine and hence have an on-trash ability, but didn't trigger until the trash had completed.  The problem with that explanation was that although I had no trouble understanding how a 'when-gain' ability could trigger for Estate-Inherit-(card-with-on-gain-ability) - buy happens before gain, so clearly the Estate would be mine before checking for the 'on-gain' - it left me failing to understand how a 'when-buy' ability could trigger for Estate-Inherit-(card-with-on-buy-ability).

Writing this post has forced me to think things through much more carefully.  I can now say that if I've misunderstood the Inheritance mechanism and it is in fact the case that a 'when-buy' ability does not trigger for Estate-Inherit-(card-with-on-buy-ability), then I don't have a problem with the exact timing of "when you trash".

[Jimmmmm]

I must admit I'm still not fully clear on why Inherited Estates get both on-buy/gain effect and on-trash effects. I'm glad they do though!

[GendoIkari]

I feel like MTG rules could be helpful here.

603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event
matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine
what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However,
some triggered abilities must be treated specially. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that
trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see
is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes
unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that
trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and
the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward. The game has to “look back
in time” to determine if these abilities trigger.

This sounds like the same thing to me. "When you trash" events are like "leaves the battlefield" triggers. Because the trashed card is no longer in play, the game "looks back in time" to see what card it was that was trashed. And the card that was actually trashed was the transformed BoM or Estate.

I think this also just works logically by a literal reading of the cards. Say you have BoM-as-Fortress and you trash it (Procession). Did you trash a Fortress? Yes, you did. You trashed a card that said "when you trash this..." So that happened. Even though there is no Fortress in the trash, that doesn't matter. You DID trash a Fortress, so the "when you trash" text happens.

With gaining, you can ask a similar question. If you have Estate-as-Border Village, and you buy one, then you gained a card and the card you gained has a "when you gain" ability.

[GendoIkari]

Hmmm... if you have Estates being Inherited as an Overpay, can you Overpay for Estates? Then Overpay is a "when you buy" ability, but Estates don't get the cost of the card, so they are still $2 and not $2+. Though I don't think that would matter, the + is more of a reminder than part of the cost. More importantly, when you would need to make the decision to Overpay, it's not your Estate yet.

[AJD]

More importantly, when you would need to make the decision to Overpay, it's not your Estate yet.

That's not right; overpay has the same when-buy timing as Noble Brigand or whatever.

[GendoIkari]

More importantly, when you would need to make the decision to Overpay, it's not your Estate yet.

That's not right; overpay has the same when-buy timing as Noble Brigand or whatever.

I'm confused; you have to pay for something before or at the same time that you buy it, don't you? Or is Overpay actually paying more money after you've paid the actual cost?

[AJD]

More importantly, when you would need to make the decision to Overpay, it's not your Estate yet.

That's not right; overpay has the same when-buy timing as Noble Brigand or whatever.

I'm confused; you have to pay for something before or at the same time that you buy it, don't you? Or is Overpay actually paying more money after you've paid the actual cost?

The latter, I guess.

[dane-m]

I must admit I'm still not fully clear on why Inherited Estates get both on-buy/gain effect and on-trash effects. I'm glad they do though!

I'm relieved to discover that I'm not the only person currently a little confused.  I've spent the afternoon wondering whether I'm trying to do something that I shouldn't be doing, namely forcing my understanding of all on-X effects to follow the same pattern of testing for the existence of the effect before doing X and then actually resolving the effect after doing X.  For on-discard and on-trash there's a wealth of evidence that that way of understanding things produces the right results when deducing what's supposed to happen in any given situation.  For on-gain it also works, though testing for the existence of the effect after rather than before gaining would also (I think) give the same results for all existing cards and events.  Similarly for on-would-gain, though I might have trouble explaining to someone what I mean by before/after would-gaining!  That just leaves on-buy.  If I simply accept that on-buy effects are tested for after the buy rather than before the buy, then my problems seem to disappear.

EDIT: The above analysis contains an error because I was considering the situation only when buying.  If I had considered the situation when gaining, I would have realised that I also need to think of on-gain effects as being tested for after the gain.  So I think everything now works for me if I test for on-buy and on-gain effects after the deed, but on-discard and on-trash effects before the deed.

[dane-m]

Hmmm... if you have Estates being Inherited as an Overpay, can you Overpay for Estates? Then Overpay is a "when you buy" ability, but Estates don't get the cost of the card, so they are still $2 and not $2+. Though I don't think that would matter, the + is more of a reminder than part of the cost. More importantly, when you would need to make the decision to Overpay, it's not your Estate yet.

Take this with a large pinch of salt, but I thought I'd seen a statement somewhere that one couldn't overpay for an Estate-Doctor (for example) to trigger Doctor's Overpay ability.  I have, however, been unable to find any evidence for this recollection, so my memory might well be confused/wrong/completely unfit for purpose (delete as appropriate).

EDIT: I've now taken a very close look at the two forum topics, one here and one on BGG, in which it's at all likely that I could have seen such a statement, but there's definitely no sign of it, so I think I've taken to hallucinating about Dominion.

[Jeebus]

My problem is that I now don't understand how BoM-(card-with-on-trash-ability) and Estate-Inherit-(card-with-on-trash-ability) manage to make use of the on-trash ability.  Although in the above I've deliberately used the word "occurs" rather than "triggers", my current understanding is based on the assumption that "occurs" and "triggers" are identical, in which case I draw the conclusion that BoM-(card-with-on-trash-ability) and Estate-Inherit-(card-with-on-trash-ability) have already become BoM and Estate respectively by the time I check for on-trash ability so there no longer is one.  What am I missing?

As you note, it doesn't make sense for the when-x ability to trigger after x. It must trigger at the moment, or right before, or something. But it resolves after x. This is clear from at least Procession-Fortress, which is in the Dark Agres rulebook.

For Inherited Estates, I would never have thought that a card is ever "yours" if you buy it but don't gain it. It doesn't leave supply before you actually gain it after all. But the Adventures rulebook make it clear that an Estate is yours when you buy it, presumably to give you when-buy effects, because most casual players would think that you do. I'm buying an Estate, which for me is a Noble Brigand, so of course I attack now. So that's the rule. It's yours when you buy it, even if it's still in supply. Of course if you don't gain it, it stops being yours again so all it did for you was the when-buy.

[Donald X.]

I think this also just works logically by a literal reading of the cards. Say you have BoM-as-Fortress and you trash it (Procession). Did you trash a Fortress? Yes, you did. You trashed a card that said "when you trash this..." So that happened. Even though there is no Fortress in the trash, that doesn't matter. You DID trash a Fortress, so the "when you trash" text happens.

I wouldn't be leaning on Magic's crazy-complex rules, but this bit here is what it came down to for me. You trash a card that says it does something when you trash it; it ought to do it. It's confusing in Dominion to people paying attention because then there's a window of time to do further when-trashed things which can come from hidden locations (e.g. Market Square), and during that window BoM happens to have stopped having the ability. It somehow got added to the list of things we were waiting to resolve though, and happens.

The rulebook specifically says Procession on BoM-as-Fortress returns it to your hand, so I suspect I will be sticking with that.

With gaining, you can ask a similar question. If you have Estate-as-Border Village, and you buy one, then you gained a card and the card you gained has a "when you gain" ability.

The Estate becomes yours when you buy it (which isn't timed as "when you buy this..." but is just a rule of the game). So you do both when-buy and when-gain abilities (if you then gain it), and can overpay.

[Donald X.]

For Inherited Estates, I would never have thought that a card is ever "yours" if you buy it but don't gain it. It doesn't leave supply before you actually gain it after all. But the Adventures rulebook make it clear that an Estate is yours when you buy it, presumably to give you when-buy effects, because most casual players would think that you do. I'm buying an Estate, which for me is a Noble Brigand, so of course I attack now. So that's the rule. It's yours when you buy it, even if it's still in supply. Of course if you don't gain it, it stops being yours again so all it did for you was the when-buy.

Correct.