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Author Topic: Edge-case puzzle: exceptions to Inheritance rules  (Read 3615 times)

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AJD

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Edge-case puzzle: exceptions to Inheritance rules
« on: May 02, 2015, 07:57:36 pm »
+2

Inheritance gives "your Estates" the abilities of some other card in the supply. What are "your Estates"? The rules say:

"An Estate is yours if either it started in your deck, or you gained it or bought it, or you were passed it with Masquerade. An Estate stops being yours if you trash it, return it to the Supply, pass it with Masquerade, or are stopped from gaining it due to Possession or Trader."

What situations are exceptions to these rules? That is, under what circumstances can an Estate meet the stated qualifications for being "yours", and yet not be yours, or vice verse?

I can think of a couple.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 08:02:43 pm by AJD »
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Kirian

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Re: Edge-case puzzle: exceptions to Inheritance rules
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2015, 09:52:30 pm »
+3

Inheritance/Fortress.  If you trash the Estate it's no longer yours (by what's written there), but it then gets put back in your hand without you gaining it or getting passed it.
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ephesos

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Re: Edge-case puzzle: exceptions to Inheritance rules
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2015, 11:46:24 pm »
0

Inheritance/BoM/Fortress also works.

I asked DXV a question about "when is something yours" somewhere in the previews, and he said pretty much the same thing.
I'm still not quite sure what happens when you buy Estate with token on Messenger... I think you do still get the gain though.

Not exactly sure how this one goes, but buying an Estate as Messenger, choosing Estate as the card you are gaining. But you reveal Trader, instead gaining Silver. Your opponent does not, and gains the last Estate in the Supply. Now, you resolve the original buy, but there are no Estates to gain...
You have one "it", the card you bought(Estate), and another "it", the card you gained via Messenger(also happens to be Estate). But you revealed Trader to the second "it", not the first "it".
So you bought an Estate, which should be yours, but it isn't(it's in your opponent's discard pile...)

Now, if these two "it"s referred to the same physical card, this problem would be solved. But they can't; otherwise, Talisman wouldn't work: you would buy a card, gaining the copy, which refers to the same physical card that you bought, and then you would try to gain that card which is in your discard pile. So they have to be different instances.
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AJD

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Re: Edge-case puzzle: exceptions to Inheritance rules
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2015, 11:55:05 pm »
0

Not exactly sure how this one goes, but buying an Estate as Messenger, choosing Estate as the card you are gaining. But you reveal Trader, instead gaining Silver. Your opponent does not, and gains the last Estate in the Supply. Now, you resolve the original buy, but there are no Estates to gain...
You have one "it", the card you bought(Estate), and another "it", the card you gained via Messenger(also happens to be Estate). But you revealed Trader to the second "it", not the first "it".
So you bought an Estate, which should be yours, but it isn't(it's in your opponent's discard pile...)

Nice one, but I think this is covered by the rule I quoted. You buy the Estate (it's yours at this point, so Messenger's abilities apply to it). You choose to gain Estate. You're set to gain the top Estate from that effect, but you reveal Trader so you don't gain it. So you're stopped from gaining that top Estate, the same one you bought, via Trader, which means it stops being yours by the quoted rule.
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ephesos

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Re: Edge-case puzzle: exceptions to Inheritance rules
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2015, 11:38:59 pm »
+2

Not exactly sure how this one goes, but buying an Estate as Messenger, choosing Estate as the card you are gaining. But you reveal Trader, instead gaining Silver. Your opponent does not, and gains the last Estate in the Supply. Now, you resolve the original buy, but there are no Estates to gain...
You have one "it", the card you bought(Estate), and another "it", the card you gained via Messenger(also happens to be Estate). But you revealed Trader to the second "it", not the first "it".
So you bought an Estate, which should be yours, but it isn't(it's in your opponent's discard pile...)

Nice one, but I think this is covered by the rule I quoted. You buy the Estate (it's yours at this point, so Messenger's abilities apply to it). You choose to gain Estate. You're set to gain the top Estate from that effect, but you reveal Trader so you don't gain it. So you're stopped from gaining that top Estate, the same one you bought, via Trader, which means it stops being yours by the quoted rule.

But "the card you bought" and "the top card of the pile" can't be the same card. Since if your opponent gained the top card of the pile, obviously you can't gain it after buying it.
E.g. Talisman gains you a copy, which must be the top card of the pile. But you bought the top card of the pile. So you gain the same card twice? Nope, they're different cards.

Bit more convoluted, but I think I have a better example.
You buy the last Estate with token on Messenger. Ferry token(-$2 cost) is on Border Village, so you choose to gain a copy of Border Village(gaining something other than Estate). Your opponent, after gaining Border Village, gains the last Estate.
So you bought the last Estate, but where is it? In your opponent's discard pile...
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AJD

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Re: Edge-case puzzle: exceptions to Inheritance rules
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2015, 12:16:29 am »
0

Not exactly sure how this one goes, but buying an Estate as Messenger, choosing Estate as the card you are gaining. But you reveal Trader, instead gaining Silver. Your opponent does not, and gains the last Estate in the Supply. Now, you resolve the original buy, but there are no Estates to gain...
You have one "it", the card you bought(Estate), and another "it", the card you gained via Messenger(also happens to be Estate). But you revealed Trader to the second "it", not the first "it".
So you bought an Estate, which should be yours, but it isn't(it's in your opponent's discard pile...)

Nice one, but I think this is covered by the rule I quoted. You buy the Estate (it's yours at this point, so Messenger's abilities apply to it). You choose to gain Estate. You're set to gain the top Estate from that effect, but you reveal Trader so you don't gain it. So you're stopped from gaining that top Estate, the same one you bought, via Trader, which means it stops being yours by the quoted rule.

But "the card you bought" and "the top card of the pile" can't be the same card. Since if your opponent gained the top card of the pile, obviously you can't gain it after buying it.
E.g. Talisman gains you a copy, which must be the top card of the pile. But you bought the top card of the pile. So you gain the same card twice? Nope, they're different cards.

I think the answer to that is that, in the general case, the formal result of buying a card isn't actually gain the card you bought but rather gain a copy of the card you bought. After all, it's surely not the case that, with Talisman in play, what you buy is the second card in the pile. You can tell this from Ruins and Knights.

Quote
Bit more convoluted, but I think I have a better example.
You buy the last Estate with token on Messenger. Ferry token(-$2 cost) is on Border Village, so you choose to gain a copy of Border Village(gaining something other than Estate). Your opponent, after gaining Border Village, gains the last Estate.
So you bought the last Estate, but where is it? In your opponent's discard pile...

Hah, I think that works!
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ephesos

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Re: Edge-case puzzle: exceptions to Inheritance rules
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2015, 12:04:15 pm »
0

It's never felt quite right to me that buying means the card is yours, it should be gaining that makes it yours. Until the card is actually in your discard pile (or on top of your deck, or in your hand, etc.), it feels to me like you're still negotiating with some kind of merchant for it, giving time for Hagglers to butt in and hand you cheaper cards. I guess you have a claim to it, if you've just bought it, so it should be yours, but you haven't actually received it yet...
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enfynet

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Re: Edge-case puzzle: exceptions to Inheritance rules
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2015, 12:13:49 pm »
+2

It's like buying something online that never gets delivered. It's not "yours" yet.
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Re: Edge-case puzzle: exceptions to Inheritance rules
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2015, 12:21:45 pm »
+1

Actually, according to a literal reading of the rules, you can possess someone and because they bought the estate, that estate is now their inheritance in your deck.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

AJD

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Re: Edge-case puzzle: exceptions to Inheritance rules
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2015, 01:51:36 pm »
0

Actually, according to a literal reading of the rules, you can possess someone and because they bought the estate, that estate is now their inheritance in your deck.

According to a literal reading of the rules, the Estate stops being theirs; the Possession exception is singled out explicitly in the rules.
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