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Author Topic: +Card token and when-you-play  (Read 36545 times)

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Jeebus

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #175 on: May 06, 2015, 12:37:44 pm »
0

Related situation: You play Gear, setting aside zero cards. Gear will normally be discarded next clean-up. But then you play RC, replaying Gear, this time setting aside one or more cards. What happens? Probably Gear gets modified to stay out after all. Does RC also stay out? It did set up a future effect, but there's only one total future effect, and Gear will (presumably) be tracking that.

I would think RC doesn't stay out, since a future effect was not set up more than once.

Related question: Suppose you play TR-Gear and set aside cards only on one play.  Is there a difference between setting cards aside on the first play vs. on the second play?

Same answer.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 11:25:50 am by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #176 on: May 06, 2015, 01:04:32 pm »
0

Here's the thread with TR + Outpost: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12051.0

Throne Room played Outpost twice. You could say that Throne Room is "doing anything" until the card has resolved twice; or that it's "doing anything" until the card has resolved once. I am tentatively going with, it's "doing anything" until the card has resolved twice.

So by Donald's tentative ruling here, if a card (like TR) played a Duration so that the future effect was set up several times, you keep it in play until all the effects are resolved. You don't get to pick which effect was from TR and which wasn't. I think he perfectly well could have rules the other way too, and maybe it would be more consistent with how TR-Duration seems to work now. But honestly this is such a corner case, I mean it's only about TR-Outlook right?, so I wouldn't for instance care however Goko implemented it, or however a judge ruled it in a tournament. I'm making the shocking statement that this corner case doesn't really need a ruling that's consistent with everything else. TR-Outlook, or several Outlooks, are not correctly implemented anyway on Goko, and probably never will be, and I doubt almost anyone in the world are playing it correctly in the rare cases where it happens.

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #177 on: May 06, 2015, 01:18:53 pm »
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Related situation: You play Gear, setting aside zero cards. Gear will normally be discarded next clean-up. But then you play RC, replaying Gear, this time setting aside one or more cards. What happens? Probably Gear gets modified to stay out after all. Does RC also stay out? It did set up a future effect, but there's only one total future effect, and Gear will (presumably) be tracking that.

I would think TR doesn't stay out, since a future effect was not set up more than once.

Related question: Suppose you play TR-Gear and set aside cards only on one play.  Is there a difference between setting cards aside on the first play vs. on the second play?

Same answer.
Let me start by saying that it also seems to me that neither TR nor RC should stay out in these situations.  If the Duration has only produced an effect on one of the two plays, I don't see why it should matter which of the two plays the effect originated from.

But now let me refer you back to one of your earlier posts...

At this stage I'd like to raise a related issue, namely the clean-up timing of TR+Outpost.  This was discussed somewhere in a topic either here or on BGG, but even with the aid of Google I have been unable to find the relevant topic amidst the morass of topics that have discussed TR+Outpost.  The topic discussed the issue of what happens when someone plays Outpost and TR+Outpost.  The answer given (if I recall correctly) was that this set up three Outpost effects, so all three cards stayed in play.  Then the player chose one of those effects to take place and the Outpost turn was played.  Then if the player had chosen the effect from the non-TR'ed Outpost, that card was discarded from play but the TR+Outpost remained in play until the next player's clean-up phase.  If on the other hand the player had chosen one of the TR'ed Outpost effects, nothing was discarded from play until the next player's clean-up phase.  How come the TR doesn't get discarded?  It has finished doing something: there is only one of the two Outpost effects that it originally created left outstanding.  If TR can spot on the turn that it's played that there is only one Tactician effect set up and hence allow itself to be cleaned up, why on the following turn can it not spot that there is only one Outpost effect remaining and hence allow itself to be cleanup up?

Same point: It's not about TR spotting anything or allowing anything. But: Has the effect (extra turn) that TR caused been resolved at this point? In this case TR played Outpost directly twice, setting up an extra turn both times. I guess you could make a case that it was the second extra turn that caused TR to stay in play, so if the player chooses to resolve the second extra turn, TR doesn't stay in play. That would mean that the player can choose to discard the TR. I'm not sure if that's the only interpretation.
If, as it seems from your comments in reply to chipperMDW, you're of the opinion that it doesn't matter which of the two plays produced the one effect that causes the Duration to stay in play on the turn it was played, why do you apparently feel it might be important when deciding whether the TR is still needed with the Outpost on the following turn?

Ah, I see that while I've been composing this post, you have made a subsequent post and now see the contradiction.  I agree that it's a corner case, but I think it would be a good idea for Donald to change his tentative ruling so as to eliminate the contradiction.

The point I'm trying to make with all this is that TR's "stay in play" rules could be specified in a straightforward, explicit way, and it seems like we almost got there yesterday, but now it seems we're instead going off in this weird, vaguely-specified direction that's open for interpretation and brings up potential questions about completely unrelated stuff. I think we're getting too complicated.

That's why I keep bringing up TR staying out with TR-BoM-FV. To me, that's the one ruling throwing a monkey wrench into having a simple explicit rule here.

I don't think that's the only thing preventing a simpler rule. I assume you mean a rule saying that a card that plays a Duration more than once stays out. Instead we have this rule: If a card plays a Duration and thereby causes that Duration to set up its future effect an extra time that turn, keep that card in play. (As far as I can see, a rule like that covers the current rulings.) The point is that we also have Royal Carriage. That card only plays a Duration once. Nevertheless the rulebook explicitly states that it stays in play, "to track the fact that the Duration card has been played twice". (We know that it's not enough that the Duration was played twice of course, it needs to have set up a future effect twice.) So going by the rulebooks, we need this rule anyway.
I've been wondering what extra spanners might get thrown in the works if there were a card that read something like "+1 Card +1 Action.  This card then becomes an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose.  This is that card until it leaves play." (a potentially useful card if Horn of Plenty were around)  Such a card would benefit from your approach to resolving TR+BoM-Duration as RC would then know not to stay out if it were used to play the card 'again'.
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chipperMDW

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #178 on: May 06, 2015, 02:50:16 pm »
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I assume you mean a rule saying that a card that plays a Duration more than once stays out.
The "simple" rule I had in mind was something like: If a card directly plays the same duration card more than once, and more than one of those plays results in that duration setting up a future effect, the first card stays out for as long as any of those future effects remain.

I see that that doesn't work for RC, but I figured it'd be simpler to have a separate rule covering cards that do what RC does ("replaying" cards). (I haven't given much thought to what that rule might be, though.)

And I guess you're wanting to express a general rule that covers the behaviors of both TR and RC in one go.
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swedenman

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #179 on: May 06, 2015, 03:47:34 pm »
+1

This is why the rules should just be written in computer code.
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Donald X.

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #180 on: May 06, 2015, 04:01:04 pm »
+2

The "simple" rule I had in mind was something like: If a card directly plays the same duration card more than once, and more than one of those plays results in that duration setting up a future effect, the first card stays out for as long as any of those future effects remain.

I see that that doesn't work for RC, but I figured it'd be simpler to have a separate rule covering cards that do what RC does ("replaying" cards). (I haven't given much thought to what that rule might be, though.)

And I guess you're wanting to express a general rule that covers the behaviors of both TR and RC in one go.
For sure I want to cover Royal Carriage.

The rulebook again:
Quote
If you play or modify a Duration card with another card, that other card also stays in front of you until it's no longer doing anything.
There's nothing there about playing it more than once, just playing it.

But wait: sadly, the Adventures rulebook does specifically refer to playing a card multiple times, despite then saying that Royal Carriage stays out in its FAQ.

Quote
Additionally, if a Duration card is played multiple times by a card such as Disciple or Throne Room, that card also stays in play until the Duration card is discarded, to track the fact that the Duration card was played multiple times.
That is just not doing the trick, missing both Royal Carriage and also stuff like Throne / Tactician. It's a great way to learn what happens here except in the weird cases. If this were the Seaside rule then that would sure simplify things; you would sometimes leave out useless Thrones that were confusing your tracking, but mostly it wouldn't come up.

As usual I like what Jeebus has to say.
Quote
If a card plays a Duration and thereby causes that Duration to set up its future effect an extra time that turn, keep that card in play.
This is the Seaside rule with a clarification for what "until it's no longer doing anything" means. And it covers Royal Carriage.
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GeoLib

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #181 on: May 06, 2015, 09:59:02 pm »
0

It just seems like things would be simpler if the "it" in

Quote
If you play or modify a Duration card with another card, that other card also stays in front of you until it's no longer doing anything.

referred to the duration card and not the other card. If a card directly plays a duration, it stays out with the duration. Simple. This would obviously mean a reversal of TR-Tac, but would just make everything so much simpler. Sometimes you'd end up with an extra TR staying out sure, but I feel like this clears up more issues than it creates.
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dane-m

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #182 on: May 07, 2015, 02:25:22 am »
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It just seems like things would be simpler if the "it" in

Quote
If you play or modify a Duration card with another card, that other card also stays in front of you until it's no longer doing anything.

referred to the duration card and not the other card. If a card directly plays a duration, it stays out with the duration. Simple. This would obviously mean a reversal of TR-Tac, but would just make everything so much simpler. Sometimes you'd end up with an extra TR staying out sure, but I feel like this clears up more issues than it creates.
As I pointed out earlier, it would also cause a Golem (or a Herald) that had played a Duration to stay out, so it's not a good solution.

As usual I like what Jeebus has to say.
Quote
If a card plays a Duration and thereby causes that Duration to set up its future effect an extra time that turn, keep that card in play.
This is the Seaside rule with a clarification for what "until it's no longer doing anything" means. And it covers Royal Carriage.
It just needs expanding to define how long the card is kept in play...

If a card plays a Duration and thereby causes that Duration to set up its future effect an extra time that turn, keep that card in play until the Duration has fewer than two of those future effects outstanding.

This is why the rules should just be written in computer code.
I know that's a humorous comment, but I usually only feel that I've understood a rule properly if I can see conceptually how I would program it (hence my problems in another thread with the timings on on-buy, on-gain, on-discard, on-trash).
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GeoLib

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #183 on: May 07, 2015, 03:20:25 am »
0

It just seems like things would be simpler if the "it" in

Quote
If you play or modify a Duration card with another card, that other card also stays in front of you until it's no longer doing anything.

referred to the duration card and not the other card. If a card directly plays a duration, it stays out with the duration. Simple. This would obviously mean a reversal of TR-Tac, but would just make everything so much simpler. Sometimes you'd end up with an extra TR staying out sure, but I feel like this clears up more issues than it creates.
As I pointed out earlier, it would also cause a Golem (or a Herald) that had played a Duration to stay out, so it's not a good solution.

I don't think that follows... Why is that result more undesirable than:

If a card plays a Duration and thereby causes that Duration to set up its future effect an extra time that turn, keep that card in play until the Duration has fewer than two of those future effects outstanding.


? I think it would make a lot of sense if Golem behaved like TR in this respect.
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dane-m

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #184 on: May 07, 2015, 05:24:45 am »
+1

As usual I like what Jeebus has to say.
Quote
If a card plays a Duration and thereby causes that Duration to set up its future effect an extra time that turn, keep that card in play.
This is the Seaside rule with a clarification for what "until it's no longer doing anything" means. And it covers Royal Carriage.
It just needs expanding to define how long the card is kept in play...

If a card plays a Duration and thereby causes that Duration to set up its future effect an extra time that turn, keep that card in play until the Duration has fewer than two of those future effects outstanding.
I've realised that my proposed expansion doesn't work, at least not in quite the way that I had intended, so I'm probably about to make a volte-face on something I said earlier.

Although Duration+Outpost is an edge case, I think it's desirable that it should be clear what's supposed to happen.  My proposal above was intended to allow TR to be discarded after the Outpost turn that followed TR+Outpost.  That felt 'right' given that at that stage there would be just one effect outstanding and the Outpost remaining out alone would be sufficient to track it.  Subsequently I've been thinking about the following (admittedly totally ridiculous) scenario:

Play Throne Room
TR plays Outpost for the first time
Call Royal Carriage to replay Outpost
TR plays Outpost for the second time

Jeebus's rule successfully keeps both the TR and the RC out on that turn.  My proposed expansion on it would keep both the TR and the RC out following the Outpost turn even though it would seem 'right' that only one should stay to track that there were now just two effects outstanding.  I think any expansion of Jeebus's rule that could give the 'right' answer in this situation would be horribly complicated.  Therefore I've come to the conclusion that simplicity is the better approach, so suggest the following expansion instead:

If a card plays a Duration and thereby causes that Duration to set up its future effect an extra time that turn, keep that card in play until none of those future effects are outstanding.

You will notice that that gives the same result for TR+Outpost as Donald's provisonal ruling.
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Jeebus

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #185 on: May 07, 2015, 11:14:08 am »
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Jeebus's rule successfully keeps both the TR and the RC out on that turn.  My proposed expansion on it would keep both the TR and the RC out following the Outpost turn even though it would seem 'right' that only one should stay to track that there were now just two effects outstanding.  I think any expansion of Jeebus's rule that could give the 'right' answer in this situation would be horribly complicated.  Therefore I've come to the conclusion that simplicity is the better approach, so suggest the following expansion instead:

If a card plays a Duration and thereby causes that Duration to set up its future effect an extra time that turn, keep that card in play until none of those future effects are outstanding.

You will notice that that gives the same result for TR+Outpost as Donald's provisonal ruling.

Yes, and then it becomes clear why the ruling on TR-Outpost is the simplest. It can also be expressed like this: Discard the card in the Clean-up phase after all the Duration's effects are resolved. -- which is the same time the Duration is discarded.

So:

Leave a played Duration in play in the Clean-up phase if it has set up a future effect that isn't resolved yet. If a card plays a Duration and thereby causes that Duration to set up its future effect an extra time this turn, leave that card in play too. Discard these cards in the Clean-up phase after all the Duration's effects are resolved.

swedenman

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #186 on: May 09, 2015, 09:24:34 pm »
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The more I think about it, the more I feel like the rule that would make the most sense is if Throne Room, King's Court, etc. just never stayed out. I mean, it's not like the Throne Room actually has any direct effect on the next turn. If you TR a Fishing Village, then yeah, you get two FV effects at the start of next turn, but that's all set up by the FV itself, not TR. I understand keeping it out for tracking purposes, but with the weird rules regarding TR and Outpost, Tactician, etc. I feel like it ends up being less confusing to just never leave them out, even if that means making tracking more difficult. Unfortunately, completely backtracking on a rule that's been printed in an official rulebook since the second expansion isn't very realistic, so I'm not sure what the best ruling would be at this point.
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GendoIkari

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #187 on: May 09, 2015, 09:51:17 pm »
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The more I think about it, the more I feel like the rule that would make the most sense is if Throne Room, King's Court, etc. just never stayed out. I mean, it's not like the Throne Room actually has any direct effect on the next turn. If you TR a Fishing Village, then yeah, you get two FV effects at the start of next turn, but that's all set up by the FV itself, not TR. I understand keeping it out for tracking purposes, but with the weird rules regarding TR and Outpost, Tactician, etc. I feel like it ends up being less confusing to just never leave them out, even if that means making tracking more difficult. Unfortunately, completely backtracking on a rule that's been printed in an official rulebook since the second expansion isn't very realistic, so I'm not sure what the best ruling would be at this point.

It's more than tracking; it also affects power level. Not keeping them out makes TR+durations stronger.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #188 on: May 09, 2015, 11:50:06 pm »
+2

The more I think about it, the more I feel like the rule that would make the most sense is if Throne Room, King's Court, etc. just never stayed out. I mean, it's not like the Throne Room actually has any direct effect on the next turn. If you TR a Fishing Village, then yeah, you get two FV effects at the start of next turn, but that's all set up by the FV itself, not TR. I understand keeping it out for tracking purposes, but with the weird rules regarding TR and Outpost, Tactician, etc. I feel like it ends up being less confusing to just never leave them out, even if that means making tracking more difficult. Unfortunately, completely backtracking on a rule that's been printed in an official rulebook since the second expansion isn't very realistic, so I'm not sure what the best ruling would be at this point.

It's more than tracking; it also affects power level. Not keeping them out makes TR+durations stronger.

While it's true that Throne Room staying out affects power level, it's not what's driving the ruling. The Throne Room stays out to remind you that the duration effect is (usually) happening twice next turn. That reminder is worth having a few confusing edge cases that almost never happen.

It would be better if Throne Room said "you may". Then you wouldn't even play Throne Room/Outpost or Throne Room/Tactician; there'd be no point.
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dane-m

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #189 on: May 10, 2015, 02:45:12 am »
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It would be better if Throne Room said "you may". Then you wouldn't even play Throne Room/Outpost or Throne Room/Tactician; there'd be no point.
Well, you might find yourself playing it and then wondering what possessed you to do so.  After dismissing the TR+Outpost+RC example I used earlier as being ridiculous it occurred to me that it could happen in a game involving Possession if one player had been fool enough to build an appropriate deck.  I suspect that Possession is a good reason to explore many of the oddest nooks and crannies of the rules.
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markusin

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #190 on: May 10, 2015, 11:10:37 am »
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It would be better if Throne Room said "you may". Then you wouldn't even play Throne Room/Outpost or Throne Room/Tactician; there'd be no point.
Well, you might find yourself playing it and then wondering what possessed you to do so.  After dismissing the TR+Outpost+RC example I used earlier as being ridiculous it occurred to me that it could happen in a game involving Possession if one player had been fool enough to build an appropriate deck.  I suspect that Possession is a good reason to explore many of the oddest nooks and crannies of the rules.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you play Possession then Outpost of an Outpost extra turn, can you choose to play the Possession turn first, then another Outpost turn? If so, doesn't that mean you can theoretically lock your opponent out of the game? It would also mean that you can't be sure Outpost won't be doing something on a later turn when played during an Outpost turn.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #191 on: May 10, 2015, 11:34:24 am »
+1

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you play Possession then Outpost of an Outpost extra turn, can you choose to play the Possession turn first, then another Outpost turn? If so, doesn't that mean you can theoretically lock your opponent out of the game? It would also mean that you can't be sure Outpost won't be doing something on a later turn when played during an Outpost turn.
If I've understood your question properly and I've interpreted the rules correctly, you can't.  At the end of your turn there are two things waiting to happen next, namely the Outpost turn and the Possession turn.  You can't, however, choose which happens first.  One of them (the Outpost turn) is trying to happen to you, while the other (the Possession turn) is trying to happen to the next player.  They have to occur in player order.  A similar situation arises when buying Mission at the end of a turn in which you've played Possession: the Mission turn has to take place before the Possession turn.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #192 on: May 10, 2015, 01:47:40 pm »
0

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you play Possession then Outpost of an Outpost extra turn, can you choose to play the Possession turn first, then another Outpost turn? If so, doesn't that mean you can theoretically lock your opponent out of the game? It would also mean that you can't be sure Outpost won't be doing something on a later turn when played during an Outpost turn.
If I've understood your question properly and I've interpreted the rules correctly, you can't.  At the end of your turn there are two things waiting to happen next, namely the Outpost turn and the Possession turn.  You can't, however, choose which happens first.  One of them (the Outpost turn) is trying to happen to you, while the other (the Possession turn) is trying to happen to the next player.  They have to occur in player order.  A similar situation arises when buying Mission at the end of a turn in which you've played Possession: the Mission turn has to take place before the Possession turn.
Ah yeah, player turn order resolution. I forgot about that.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #193 on: May 10, 2015, 05:19:01 pm »
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If someone has an Outpost turn and a Possession turn at the same time, you get to choose.  I don't see how this can lock anybody out of the game, is there something I'm missing?
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #194 on: May 10, 2015, 05:26:49 pm »
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If someone has an Outpost turn and a Possession turn at the same time, you get to choose.  I don't see how this can lock anybody out of the game, is there something I'm missing?

If two different people had an Outpost turn and a Possession turn and you got to choose, you could keep alternating between Possession and Outpost turns and never let the other player get a normal turn. But you don't get to choose, so it's not a problem.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #195 on: December 08, 2015, 12:52:11 pm »
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It would be better if Throne Room said "you may". Then you wouldn't even play Throne Room/Outpost or Throne Room/Tactician; there'd be no point.

Well, if your +1 Card token was on Tactician, you'd get the benefit twice:

Throne Room
... +1 Card
... Tactician, discard, get bonus
... +1 Card
... Tactician, discard, get bonus
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #196 on: May 23, 2016, 04:54:36 am »
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I still find TR/Durations confusing because you can have the following scenarios:

  • A single TR tied to a single Duration, say Wharf
  • A single TR tied to multiple Durations, because it was TR'ed itself
  • A Duration which was TR'ed, but no longer has a TR attached to it (Procession)

So the TR staying out only to indicate how many times a Duration was played is a bit hit and miss for me.
That's why I proposed tokens to track the Durations instead of attaching TRs.
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GendoIkari

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #197 on: May 23, 2016, 09:57:54 am »
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I still find TR/Durations confusing because you can have the following scenarios:

  • A single TR tied to a single Duration, say Wharf
  • A single TR tied to multiple Durations, because it was TR'ed itself
  • A Duration which was TR'ed, but no longer has a TR attached to it (Procession)

So the TR staying out only to indicate how many times a Duration was played is a bit hit and miss for me.
That's why I proposed tokens to track the Durations instead of attaching TRs.

The rules are designed around the common situations that happen a lot, and then they don't necessarily work as nicely when they come up against obscure cases. Granted, TR+TR+Duratoin+Duratoin isn't super edge casey or anything, but still not nearly as common as simply TR+Duration.
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Donald X.

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #198 on: May 23, 2016, 03:39:27 pm »
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I still find TR/Durations confusing because you can have the following scenarios:

  • A single TR tied to a single Duration, say Wharf
  • A single TR tied to multiple Durations, because it was TR'ed itself
  • A Duration which was TR'ed, but no longer has a TR attached to it (Procession)

So the TR staying out only to indicate how many times a Duration was played is a bit hit and miss for me.
That's why I proposed tokens to track the Durations instead of attaching TRs.
We tried having a Throne stay out if it was played on a Throne played on a Duration. The rulebook never stated it but that was my ruling for a while there. It did not work out, it was more confusing.
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majiponi

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #199 on: May 28, 2017, 08:42:47 pm »
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We now have another card which has "first" text. MOAT. Which is faster, Moat, or +1 card token? (Very edge case) Urchin's trash is latter?
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