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Author Topic: +Card token and when-you-play  (Read 75891 times)

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AJD

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #150 on: May 04, 2015, 11:24:34 pm »
+1

The rule in the rule book is that Throne Room stays in play "until it is no longer doing anything". There are two things that "it" could mean there—the Duration card or the Throne Room. If "it" is the Duration card, that means that Throne Room stays in play with Tactician, which Donald has said is not correct. So "it" must be the Throne Room.

What does it mean for the Throne Room to be "doing anything"? Presumably the only sensible interpretation of that is, the Throne Room stays in play if the effect of having played the Throne Room is different from having just played the card without Throne Room. Whether the Throne Room played the Duration card once or twice is immaterial; what matters is if the act of having played a card twice—i.e., the effect of Throne Room—is still going to be resolving next turn.

(…Note that Royal Carriage only ever plays anything once, but it stays in play with Durations anyway.)
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chipperMDW

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #151 on: May 05, 2015, 12:00:12 am »
0

What does it mean for the Throne Room to be "doing anything"? Presumably the only sensible interpretation of that is, the Throne Room stays in play if the effect of having played the Throne Room is different from having just played the card without Throne Room. Whether the Throne Room played the Duration card once or twice is immaterial; what matters is if the act of having played a card twice—i.e., the effect of Throne Room—is still going to be resolving next turn.
The effect of having played KC-BoM-Feast-FV-FV is different from having played BoM-whatever without KC.  But it was decided KC doesn't stay out for that because it never played any durations directly.

So it's not only a matter of whether the act of playing a card N times is still going to be resolving next turn. It also appears to have something to do with whether the plays of durations were directly through TR or indirectly through BoM.

TR-BoM-FV has only one direct play of a duration, and one direct play of a duration (with a future effect) is not sufficient elsewhere (TR-Tactician) to keep a TR in play. So it's not clear to me why TR should stay out in that case.
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swedenman

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #152 on: May 05, 2015, 12:04:42 am »
0

Hm, this is surprising to me. So it doesn't matter if the TR or KC is actually doing something next turn, it just matters if it directly played a Duration card? I would think it would make more sense to have the TR or KC stay out as long as it results in setting up multiple effects for a future turn (as the KC is doing in chipperMDW's example).
It doesn't need to have set up multiple future effects, but it does need to have set up a future effect. If it hasn't (e.g. Throne Tactician) it doesn't stay out.

But didn't the KC set up a future effect in the Feast/FV/FV to example? Hasn't it resulted in 2 FVs being played next turn, whereas without it there couldn't have been more than 1? I'm not sure I understand why it matters if it directly played a Duration. A TR modifying a BoM that becomes an FV stays out, doesn't it? But it's only directly playing one Duration card, so that rule doesn't really make sense to me.
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AJD

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #153 on: May 05, 2015, 12:48:36 am »
+2

What does it mean for the Throne Room to be "doing anything"? Presumably the only sensible interpretation of that is, the Throne Room stays in play if the effect of having played the Throne Room is different from having just played the card without Throne Room. Whether the Throne Room played the Duration card once or twice is immaterial; what matters is if the act of having played a card twice—i.e., the effect of Throne Room—is still going to be resolving next turn.
The effect of having played KC-BoM-Feast-FV-FV is different from having played BoM-whatever without KC.  But it was decided KC doesn't stay out for that because it never played any durations directly.

The rule in the rule book is that Throne Room stays in play "until it is no longer doing anything" if it played a Duration. If it didn't play a Duration, Throne Room is cleaned up on the turn on which it's played no matter what.

Quote
TR-BoM-FV has only one direct play of a duration, and one direct play of a duration (with a future effect) is not sufficient elsewhere (TR-Tactician) to keep a TR in play. So it's not clear to me why TR should stay out in that case.

Okay but look.

1. Did the Throne Room play a Duration? Yes it did.
2. Does the Throne Room have something to do on a future turn? Yes, it has to track that the Fishing Village is being played a second time.

TR-BoM-FV passes both (1) and (2). KC-BoM-Feast-FV-FV fails (1), and TR-Tactician fails (2).

Again, in FV–Royal Carriage, the Royal Carriage produces only one direct play of a Duration (the first play of the Duration was the FV being played by itself the normal way), but that doesn't stop RC from staying in play with it.
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chipperMDW

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #154 on: May 05, 2015, 01:27:25 am »
0

The rule in the rule book is that Throne Room stays in play "until it is no longer doing anything" if it played a Duration. If it didn't play a Duration, Throne Room is cleaned up on the turn on which it's played no matter what.
Ok, that makes sense.

Quote
Okay but look.

1. Did the Throne Room play a Duration? Yes it did.
2. Does the Throne Room have something to do on a future turn? Yes, it has to track that the Fishing Village is being played a second time.
See, I'm seeing the answer to (2) as "no."  Yeah, you and I know FV is getting played a second time partly thanks to TR, but as far as the TR's direct actions are concerned, it only played FV the one time, so it has no "second time" to track.

For me, in order to get the answer to (2) to be "yes," that means whenever TR plays a duration directly at any point, it also needs to go check to see whether it ever indirectly played that same duration through a BoM, even though it doesn't otherwise care about what it indirectly played. But maybe that's what happens.

Quote
Again, in FV–Royal Carriage, the Royal Carriage produces only one direct play of a Duration (the first play of the Duration was the FV being played by itself the normal way), but that doesn't stop RC from staying in play with it.
RC is doing something fundamentally different from TR. RC is explicitly acting on a card that's already been played. RC always produces an "extra" play, so it always has something to track for durations. (Though I wonder whether even RC might be ruled not to stay out when, e.g., replaying Gear without setting any cards aside.)
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dane-m

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #155 on: May 05, 2015, 02:22:31 am »
0

The rule in the rule book is that Throne Room stays in play "until it is no longer doing anything" if it played a Duration. If it didn't play a Duration, Throne Room is cleaned up on the turn on which it's played no matter what.
Ok, that makes sense.

Quote
Okay but look.

1. Did the Throne Room play a Duration? Yes it did.
2. Does the Throne Room have something to do on a future turn? Yes, it has to track that the Fishing Village is being played a second time.
See, I'm seeing the answer to (2) as "no."  Yeah, you and I know FV is getting played a second time partly thanks to TR, but as far as the TR's direct actions are concerned, it only played FV the one time, so it has no "second time" to track.

For me, in order to get the answer to (2) to be "yes," that means whenever TR plays a duration directly at any point, it also needs to go check to see whether it ever indirectly played that same duration through a BoM, even though it doesn't otherwise care about what it indirectly played. But maybe that's what happens.
At first I thought that AJD's solution might be the only one that enabled all the relevant rules (as opposed to rulings) to stand, but now I'm not so sure.

Always keeping TR out when it has played a duration would in the case of Tactician clash with the Seaside rule that TR stays out until it is no longer doing anything.

Initially I thought that not keeping TR out when it had played BoM-Duration would clash with the Dark Ages rules, but on reviewing them I see that although they explicitly state (a) that BoM stays out when played as a duration and (b) that BoM stays out when played as TR/KC/Procession that plays a duration - I note in passing that even with Adventures we can't yet manage to make use of BoM as KC - they don't make any statement about what happens with TR+BoM-Duration.  As such I think that Donald has scope to rule in one of two ways on TR+BoM-Duration: (a) TR does somehow become aware that it has something to track, so stays out, or (b) TR has only directly played the duration once, so it doesn't know that it has something to track and hence gets discarded from play even though the players know that there is something to track.

At this stage I'd like to raise a related issue, namely the clean-up timing of TR+Outpost.  This was discussed somewhere in a topic either here or on BGG, but even with the aid of Google I have been unable to find the relevant topic amidst the morass of topics that have discussed TR+Outpost.  The topic discussed the issue of what happens when someone plays Outpost and TR+Outpost.  The answer given (if I recall correctly) was that this set up three Outpost effects, so all three cards stayed in play.  Then the player chose one of those effects to take place and the Outpost turn was played.  Then if the player had chosen the effect from the non-TR'ed Outpost, that card was discarded from play but the TR+Outpost remained in play until the next player's clean-up phase.  If on the other hand the player had chosen one of the TR'ed Outpost effects, nothing was discarded from play until the next player's clean-up phase.  How come the TR doesn't get discarded?  It has finished doing something: there is only one of the two Outpost effects that it originally created left outstanding.  If TR can spot on the turn that it's played that there is only one Tactician effect set up and hence allow itself to be cleaned up, why on the following turn can it not spot that there is only one Outpost effect remaining and hence allow itself to be cleanup up?

Again, in FV–Royal Carriage, the Royal Carriage produces only one direct play of a Duration (the first play of the Duration was the FV being played by itself the normal way), but that doesn't stop RC from staying in play with it.
RC is doing something fundamentally different from TR. RC is explicitly acting on a card that's already been played. RC always produces an "extra" play, so it always has something to track for durations. (Though I wonder whether even RC might be ruled not to stay out when, e.g., replaying Gear without setting any cards aside.)
Or indeed replaying Tactician!  Why anyone might choose to do such a thing is beyond me, but the rules need to cover what to do with idiotic plays.
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dane-m

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #156 on: May 05, 2015, 03:38:00 am »
0

Always keeping TR out when it has played a duration would in the case of Tactician clash with the Seaside rule that TR stays out until it is no longer doing anything.
I (at least possibly) take that back.  It might well be that Donald's ruling that the "it" in "If you play or modify a Duration card with another card, that other card also stays in your play area until it is no longer doing anything" refers back to the TR rather than the duration card is the only thing that makes keeping TR out after TR+Tactician incompatible with the Seaside rules.  If that's the case then Donald also has the option of reversing that ruling, i.e. making the "it" refer back to the duration card instead, in which case TR would always stay out whenever it had played a duration, irrespective of the number of times it had played it or the number of effects that had been set up.  That would also resolve the point I raised about clean-up timing of TR+Outpost.  But having said all that, I think this option is the least attractive of the three because (a) the more natural reading of the sentence "If you play or modify a Duration card with another card, that other card also stays in your play area until it is no longer doing anything" is for the "it" to refer back to "another card", (b) if the "it" were to refer back to the duration card, the sentence would now cause a Golem that had played a duration card to stay out, and (c) this option would cause more instances of false tracking - having a TR+Duration still in play when there is just one effect or having just Duration when there is more than one effect - than either of the other two possibilities.
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werothegreat

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #157 on: May 05, 2015, 10:28:54 am »
+1

Let me see if I can say this concisely, to make sure I understand it.

TR->BoM->Duration - TR stays out (it played a Duration, and it was more than the first play of the card)
TR->BoM->Feast;BoM->Duration - TR does NOT stay out - it did not play a Duration, it played a Band of Misfits, which then turned into a Duration
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Jeebus

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #158 on: May 05, 2015, 10:36:01 am »
+1

See, I'm seeing the answer to (2) as "no."  Yeah, you and I know FV is getting played a second time partly thanks to TR, but as far as the TR's direct actions are concerned, it only played FV the one time, so it has no "second time" to track.

For me, in order to get the answer to (2) to be "yes," that means whenever TR plays a duration directly at any point, it also needs to go check to see whether it ever indirectly played that same duration through a BoM, even though it doesn't otherwise care about what it indirectly played. But maybe that's what happens.

I don't think this is a case where it matters what TR "sees". There is nothing in the ability of TR that causes it to stay out, ever. Rather this is a rule strictly from the rulebook, meant to be checked by the players in Clean-up. The point AJD makes about Royal Carriage is very good, and fits with the explanation I made. If the card plays a Duration and causes an extra future effect for that Duration, it stays out with the Duration. That's exactly why Royal Carriage stays out, and it's exactly why TR stays out after having played BoM-Duration. When the player discards cards in Clean-Up, he checks whether TR or Royal Carriage did that.

Quote
RC is doing something fundamentally different from TR. RC is explicitly acting on a card that's already been played. RC always produces an "extra" play, so it always has something to track for durations. (Though I wonder whether even RC might be ruled not to stay out when, e.g., replaying Gear without setting any cards aside.)

To me it's not different, it's exactly the same. TR is also explicity playing a card that's already been played (usually by TR, sometimes by BoM). It produces an extra play, or rather an extra future effect, which is the important part.

If RC replays Gear without setting any cards aside, it doesn't stay out, because it didn't set up a future effect.

Jeebus

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #159 on: May 05, 2015, 10:49:27 am »
0

As such I think that Donald has scope to rule in one of two ways on TR+BoM-Duration: (a) TR does somehow become aware that it has something to track, so stays out, or (b) TR has only directly played the duration once, so it doesn't know that it has something to track and hence gets discarded from play even though the players know that there is something to track.

As I said in my previous post I don't think it matter what TR is "aware of". It's up to the player to discard correctly in Clean-Up according to what cards have set up a future effect.

Quote
At this stage I'd like to raise a related issue, namely the clean-up timing of TR+Outpost.  This was discussed somewhere in a topic either here or on BGG, but even with the aid of Google I have been unable to find the relevant topic amidst the morass of topics that have discussed TR+Outpost.  The topic discussed the issue of what happens when someone plays Outpost and TR+Outpost.  The answer given (if I recall correctly) was that this set up three Outpost effects, so all three cards stayed in play.  Then the player chose one of those effects to take place and the Outpost turn was played.  Then if the player had chosen the effect from the non-TR'ed Outpost, that card was discarded from play but the TR+Outpost remained in play until the next player's clean-up phase.  If on the other hand the player had chosen one of the TR'ed Outpost effects, nothing was discarded from play until the next player's clean-up phase.  How come the TR doesn't get discarded?  It has finished doing something: there is only one of the two Outpost effects that it originally created left outstanding.  If TR can spot on the turn that it's played that there is only one Tactician effect set up and hence allow itself to be cleaned up, why on the following turn can it not spot that there is only one Outpost effect remaining and hence allow itself to be cleanup up?

Same point: It's not about TR spotting anything or allowing anything. But: Has the effect (extra turn) that TR caused been resolved at this point? In this case TR played Outpost directly twice, setting up an extra turn both times. I guess you could make a case that it was the second extra turn that caused TR to stay in play, so if the player chooses to resolve the second extra turn, TR doesn't stay in play. That would mean that the player can choose to discard the TR. I'm not sure if that's the only interpretation.

Quote
Or indeed replaying Tactician!  Why anyone might choose to do such a thing is beyond me, but the rules need to cover what to do with idiotic plays.

Theoretically Goleming into a TR with only Tactician in hand, or playing TR-TR-Smithy and drawing Tactician.

Jeebus

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #160 on: May 05, 2015, 10:59:34 am »
0

Unless we're going with the thing Jeebus suggested about TR being able to tell whether a duration card has been "used" before in a turn.  ('Cuz, depending how you define that, it may also have weird implications (that nobody will ever notice) with Processioning durations then Graverobbing them and playing them again with TR in the space of a turn.)

Are there is any real examples of what you're talking about? For your scenario to work, doesn't the TR have to play the Duration just once after it's Graverobbered? I don't see that happening. In any case, when a card is trashed and then fished out, I don't think it's considered the same card anymore for purposes of tracking how many times it's been played (since the trash is an unordered pile where there could be many of the same cards).

Simon (DK)

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #161 on: May 05, 2015, 11:44:02 am »
+1

Here's the thread with TR + Outpost: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12051.0

On page 2 you can find this post:

If you play Throne Room-Outpost in your normal turn, can you then choose which of them you clean up in your Outpost turn?
I would think yes, because when your normal turn is over, you can choose whether to resolve the normal Outpost or the Throne Room generated Outpost first.
Yes, you pick which Outpost to resolve first.

Maybe I am just confused here (which seems likely) but it doesn't seem like there is a difference between the "2" Outposts.  You play Throne Room, and it plays Outpost 2 times.  There isn't a "normal Outpost" and a "Throne Room generated Outpost" is there?  The Throne room played both Outposts.  It stays out to remind you that you played it twice, but you don't have a "normal" one.  I suppose the two "take an extra turn"s happen at the same time (after this one), so choosing which one to resolve first makes sense, but it shouldn't affect the outcome right?
Yes, Throne Room played both Outposts. Both plays of Outpost are that one Outpost card, facilitated by Throne Room. So you don't discard Outpost until a confusingly late point as previously discussed. That leaves the question of what your options are for discarding Throne Room.

The Seaside rulebook says (going from a text file, feel free to consult a printed rulebook): "If you play or modify a Duration card with another card, that other card also stays in front of you until it's no longer doing anything. For example if you play Throne Room on Merchant Ship, both cards stay in play until the Clean-up phase of your next turn. The Throne Room stays in play to remind you that you are getting the effect of Merchant Ship twice on that next turn."

[That "or modify" is there because once it seemed like I might conceivably make a card like "reveal this when you play a card, to add 1 to numbers in that card's text."]

So the question is, at what point is Throne Room "no longer doing anything." As always I just want the ruling to match the rulebook as well as it can.

Throne Room played Outpost twice. You could say that Throne Room is "doing anything" until the card has resolved twice; or that it's "doing anything" until the card has resolved once. I am tentatively going with, it's "doing anything" until the card has resolved twice.
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chipperMDW

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #162 on: May 05, 2015, 12:01:33 pm »
+1

Unless we're going with the thing Jeebus suggested about TR being able to tell whether a duration card has been "used" before in a turn.  ('Cuz, depending how you define that, it may also have weird implications (that nobody will ever notice) with Processioning durations then Graverobbing them and playing them again with TR in the space of a turn.)

Are there is any real examples of what you're talking about? For your scenario to work, doesn't the TR have to play the Duration just once after it's Graverobbered? I don't see that happening.
Sure. Procession-Gear, setting aside 2 cards each time (gain whatever). Graverobber the Gear. TR-Gear, first setting aside 0 cards, then 2 cards. Your suggestion (possibly) means, even though TR set up only one future effect on the Gear, TR needs to stay out because that Gear set up future effects before it met TR.

Quote
In any case, when a card is trashed and then fished out, I don't think it's considered the same card anymore for purposes of tracking how many times it's been played (since the trash is an unordered pile where there could be many of the same cards).
That's possible. The card's also been in your deck, which would be an even better reason to not know which one it is (because maybe you really don't).


The point I'm trying to make with all this is that TR's "stay in play" rules could be specified in a straightforward, explicit way, and it seems like we almost got there yesterday, but now it seems we're instead going off in this weird, vaguely-specified direction that's open for interpretation and brings up potential questions about completely unrelated stuff. I think we're getting too complicated.

That's why I keep bringing up TR staying out with TR-BoM-FV. To me, that's the one ruling throwing a monkey wrench into having a simple explicit rule here.
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enfynet

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #163 on: May 05, 2015, 12:09:31 pm »
+1

I have +A token on BoM

I have +B token on Selftrasher

I have +C token on Duration

I play TR-BoM (Selftrasher-Duration)

+A +B +A +C ?

TR does not stay out?

If I played the Duration only, I would only get BoM token once and TR stays out?
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #164 on: May 05, 2015, 05:14:10 pm »
0

I hope you guys are getting somewhere, and will check back later. I have not read all those posts.

At one point I ruled that Throne Throne duration duration left out the first Throne. The idea was to leave the cards out for tracking, and well there was more to remember there. But I gave up on that, and now go straight by the rulebook. Throne has to have played a duration card to stay out. And that duration card has to have an unresolved future effect.

BoM is weird because, as now interpreted, it plays itself, and so Throne gets cut out when that happens, although it can end up back in on it for the second play, when (if) BoM isn't BoM anymore.
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Witherweaver

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #165 on: May 05, 2015, 05:20:01 pm »
+2

Easy solution, if your Journey Token is face up, keep TR/BoM/KC in play no matter what they did.  If not, discard no matter what.

It's that or reading tea leaves.
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dane-m

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #166 on: May 05, 2015, 05:20:35 pm »
+5

I hope you guys are getting somewhere
First the good news: we're getting somewhere.
Now the bad news: we're all going in different directions.
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chipperMDW

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #167 on: May 05, 2015, 07:40:15 pm »
0

Related situation: You play Gear, setting aside zero cards. Gear will normally be discarded next clean-up. But then you play RC, replaying Gear, this time setting aside one or more cards. What happens? Probably Gear gets modified to stay out after all. Does RC also stay out? It did set up a future effect, but there's only one total future effect, and Gear will (presumably) be tracking that.
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eHalcyon

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #168 on: May 05, 2015, 08:48:02 pm »
+1

Related situation: You play Gear, setting aside zero cards. Gear will normally be discarded next clean-up. But then you play RC, replaying Gear, this time setting aside one or more cards. What happens? Probably Gear gets modified to stay out after all. Does RC also stay out? It did set up a future effect, but there's only one total future effect, and Gear will (presumably) be tracking that.

Related question: Suppose you play TR-Gear and set aside cards only on one play.  Is there a difference between setting cards aside on the first play vs. on the second play?
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jaketheyak

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #169 on: May 05, 2015, 11:43:20 pm »
0

Related situation: You play Gear, setting aside zero cards. Gear will normally be discarded next clean-up. But then you play RC, replaying Gear, this time setting aside one or more cards. What happens? Probably Gear gets modified to stay out after all. Does RC also stay out? It did set up a future effect, but there's only one total future effect, and Gear will (presumably) be tracking that.

Related question: Suppose you play TR-Gear and set aside cards only on one play.  Is there a difference between setting cards aside on the first play vs. on the second play?

Or, just to muddy the waters even further, if you play TR-Gear and set aside one card per play you have two set-aside cards which can be resolved according to the text of a single Gear card.
Does the TR really need to stay out in order to keep track of this?

Actually, for that matter, if you play TR-Gear and set aside all four cards, you don't really need the TR to tell you what the set-aside cards are set-aside for.
From a purely tracking point-of-view, just leaving out the Gear card should cover it.

I mean, it makes sense to leave out the TR when you play it on, say, a Wharf.
You absolutely need it there to remind you that you draw four extra cards and get two extra buys on your next turn, from a purely practical standpoint.

Gear doesn't have a duplicated effect to keep track of at the beginning of your next turn, you simply take into hand however many cards you set aside.
So, why would you ever need to leave out the TR for Gear?
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werothegreat

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #170 on: May 06, 2015, 12:12:09 am »
0

Related situation: You play Gear, setting aside zero cards. Gear will normally be discarded next clean-up. But then you play RC, replaying Gear, this time setting aside one or more cards. What happens? Probably Gear gets modified to stay out after all. Does RC also stay out? It did set up a future effect, but there's only one total future effect, and Gear will (presumably) be tracking that.

Related question: Suppose you play TR-Gear and set aside cards only on one play.  Is there a difference between setting cards aside on the first play vs. on the second play?

Or, just to muddy the waters even further, if you play TR-Gear and set aside one card per play you have two set-aside cards which can be resolved according to the text of a single Gear card.
Does the TR really need to stay out in order to keep track of this?

Actually, for that matter, if you play TR-Gear and set aside all four cards, you don't really need the TR to tell you what the set-aside cards are set-aside for.
From a purely tracking point-of-view, just leaving out the Gear card should cover it.

I mean, it makes sense to leave out the TR when you play it on, say, a Wharf.
You absolutely need it there to remind you that you draw four extra cards and get two extra buys on your next turn, from a purely practical standpoint.

Gear doesn't have a duplicated effect to keep track of at the beginning of your next turn, you simply take into hand however many cards you set aside.
So, why would you ever need to leave out the TR for Gear?

If you TR Gear, setting aside 2 cards each time, 2 go under Gear, and 2 go under TR.  Same deal as with Haven.
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jaketheyak

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #171 on: May 06, 2015, 01:51:03 am »
0

Related situation: You play Gear, setting aside zero cards. Gear will normally be discarded next clean-up. But then you play RC, replaying Gear, this time setting aside one or more cards. What happens? Probably Gear gets modified to stay out after all. Does RC also stay out? It did set up a future effect, but there's only one total future effect, and Gear will (presumably) be tracking that.

Related question: Suppose you play TR-Gear and set aside cards only on one play.  Is there a difference between setting cards aside on the first play vs. on the second play?

Or, just to muddy the waters even further, if you play TR-Gear and set aside one card per play you have two set-aside cards which can be resolved according to the text of a single Gear card.
Does the TR really need to stay out in order to keep track of this?

Actually, for that matter, if you play TR-Gear and set aside all four cards, you don't really need the TR to tell you what the set-aside cards are set-aside for.
From a purely tracking point-of-view, just leaving out the Gear card should cover it.

I mean, it makes sense to leave out the TR when you play it on, say, a Wharf.
You absolutely need it there to remind you that you draw four extra cards and get two extra buys on your next turn, from a purely practical standpoint.

Gear doesn't have a duplicated effect to keep track of at the beginning of your next turn, you simply take into hand however many cards you set aside.
So, why would you ever need to leave out the TR for Gear?

If you TR Gear, setting aside 2 cards each time, 2 go under Gear, and 2 go under TR.  Same deal as with Haven.

Okay, I forgot there was some precedence for this with Haven, but the question is: why?
As I said, it makes sense to keep TR out when you need it to keep track of something intangible, like the number of cards you draw, but slipping two cards under Haven or four cards under Gear seems like a perfectly acceptable way of keeping track of those extra cards.
It makes it seem like the TR being left out is a deliberate penalty, rather than a mechanism for tracking an effect.
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eHalcyon

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #172 on: May 06, 2015, 02:30:30 am »
+7

Related situation: You play Gear, setting aside zero cards. Gear will normally be discarded next clean-up. But then you play RC, replaying Gear, this time setting aside one or more cards. What happens? Probably Gear gets modified to stay out after all. Does RC also stay out? It did set up a future effect, but there's only one total future effect, and Gear will (presumably) be tracking that.

Related question: Suppose you play TR-Gear and set aside cards only on one play.  Is there a difference between setting cards aside on the first play vs. on the second play?

Or, just to muddy the waters even further, if you play TR-Gear and set aside one card per play you have two set-aside cards which can be resolved according to the text of a single Gear card.
Does the TR really need to stay out in order to keep track of this?

Actually, for that matter, if you play TR-Gear and set aside all four cards, you don't really need the TR to tell you what the set-aside cards are set-aside for.
From a purely tracking point-of-view, just leaving out the Gear card should cover it.

I mean, it makes sense to leave out the TR when you play it on, say, a Wharf.
You absolutely need it there to remind you that you draw four extra cards and get two extra buys on your next turn, from a purely practical standpoint.

Gear doesn't have a duplicated effect to keep track of at the beginning of your next turn, you simply take into hand however many cards you set aside.
So, why would you ever need to leave out the TR for Gear?

If you TR Gear, setting aside 2 cards each time, 2 go under Gear, and 2 go under TR.  Same deal as with Haven.

Okay, I forgot there was some precedence for this with Haven, but the question is: why?
As I said, it makes sense to keep TR out when you need it to keep track of something intangible, like the number of cards you draw, but slipping two cards under Haven or four cards under Gear seems like a perfectly acceptable way of keeping track of those extra cards.
It makes it seem like the TR being left out is a deliberate penalty, rather than a mechanism for tracking an effect.

For consistency?  You don't want to have different rules for different Duration cards.

There is actually a practical difference too.  For the Gear example, suppose you play TR-Gear.  On the first play you set aside a Tunnel.  On the second play, you set aside an action card (or maybe 2).  On your next turn, you could resolve the first Gear and put Tunnel in your hand, then call Guide (discarding Tunnel), then resolve the second Gear to put the action card(s) in your new hand.  But if you put all the set aside cards under a single Gear, you may forget that they resolve separately.  If you set aside more than one card each time, you may mix up which cards were set aside for each play, which can make a real difference.
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jaketheyak

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #173 on: May 06, 2015, 10:51:27 am »
0

Ah, resolving start of turn actions separately does indeed make a practical reason to track TR-Haven/Gear.

Sorry for the diversion, I think your question was a better one which I'd like to hear the answer to.
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Jeebus

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #174 on: May 06, 2015, 12:34:50 pm »
0

In any case, when a card is trashed and then fished out, I don't think it's considered the same card anymore for purposes of tracking how many times it's been played (since the trash is an unordered pile where there could be many of the same cards).
That's possible. The card's also been in your deck, which would be an even better reason to not know which one it is (because maybe you really don't).

Good point. It's even clearer then that there's no problem of tracking how many times a Duration has set something up.

Quote
The point I'm trying to make with all this is that TR's "stay in play" rules could be specified in a straightforward, explicit way, and it seems like we almost got there yesterday, but now it seems we're instead going off in this weird, vaguely-specified direction that's open for interpretation and brings up potential questions about completely unrelated stuff. I think we're getting too complicated.

That's why I keep bringing up TR staying out with TR-BoM-FV. To me, that's the one ruling throwing a monkey wrench into having a simple explicit rule here.

I don't think that's the only thing preventing a simpler rule. I assume you mean a rule saying that a card that plays a Duration more than once stays out. Instead we have this rule: If a card plays a Duration and thereby causes that Duration to set up its future effect an extra time that turn, keep that card in play. (As far as I can see, a rule like that covers the current rulings.) The point is that we also have Royal Carriage. That card only plays a Duration once. Nevertheless the rulebook explicitly states that it stays in play, "to track the fact that the Duration card has been played twice". (We know that it's not enough that the Duration was played twice of course, it needs to have set up a future effect twice.) So going by the rulebooks, we need this rule anyway.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 12:53:05 pm by Jeebus »
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