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Author Topic: +Card token and when-you-play  (Read 75876 times)

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skip wooznum

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #75 on: April 30, 2015, 01:10:56 am »
0

Ah so ajd and the rest of u guys r saying that since the band is NOW a scout, tr plays that a second time. I guess I originally thought if tr played band the first time, tr could play it again even if it doesnt anymore exist. Im starting to understand but im still not convinced. Shouldn't tr store the information that the card it's playing is a band of misfits and not a scout?

Another way to put this is: if I actually play a band of misfits, then that means choosing a card for bom to turn into and then actually becoming that card is part of the action I do, thats what is included in playing a bom. So dont I get to do that twice? I did it once, now im a scout. Great but the card I throned was a bom and part of playing bom is choosing a card and becoming it so let me do that action again.

Sorry if it seems like we're going in circles, I just want to understand what im missing. Am I the only one who thinks it should work this way?
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werothegreat

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #76 on: April 30, 2015, 01:15:15 am »
+3

Donald, here are all the current rule clarifications on the BoM wiki page.  Anything you disagree with?

Quote
* You first play Band of Misfits, then you play the card you chose to emulate.  In this sense, Band of Misfits plays like a Throne Room variant, and one play of Band of Misfits with a successful emulation counts as two Actions played; this matters for Conspirator.  As such, vanilla bonus tokens on Band of Misfits do give their effect when Band of Misfits is played, since token effects happen before anything else a card does.  If there are any vanilla bonus tokens on the card Band of Misfits is emulating, those effects occur as well, after the effects from tokens on Band of Misfits.
** If Band of Misfits is multiplied when tokens are on its pile, the token effect on Band of Misfits happens only once, since Band of Misfits is only being played once; once it is in play, it is a different card.  However, tokens on a card Band of Misfits is emulating do have their effects multiplied.  For example, if the +1 Card token is on Band of Misfits and the +$1 token is on Chapel, and you Throne Room a Band of Misfits, emulating Chapel, you would first get +1 Card, then +$2.
* If you use Throne Room on Band of Misfits, choosing to play Band of Misfits as a self-trashing card (for example, Feast), the Band of Misfits will be in the trash after the first play as Feast, meaning it has left play.  Throne Room then plays Band of Misfits again, allowing you to make a new choice as to what Band of Misfits should emulate.  However, since Band of Misfits is in the trash, you will only get the on-play effects of the emulated card.  Similar logic applies to one-shots that do not trash themselves, but still leave play, such as Island.
* Note that when Band of Misfits is discarded or trashed from play, doing so activates the when-discarded or when-trashed abilities of the card it was imitating, even though once you discard or trash it the card is back to being a Band of Misfits again. It is the act of "trashing a Fortress" or "discarding a Hermit from play" that triggers those abilities, even if the card that actually gets discarded or trashed is no longer a Hermit or Fortress after the act of trashing or discarding is completed.
* Band of Misfits does not play well with Reserve cards. If you play Band of Misfits as a Reserve card it goes to your Tavern mat and stays there; you can't call it or otherwise recover it because it is now out of your play area and no longer has the abilities of the card it was imitating.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 01:16:30 am by werothegreat »
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enfynet

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #77 on: April 30, 2015, 01:18:59 am »
0

Ah so ajd and the rest of u guys r saying that since the band is NOW a scout, tr plays that a second time. I guess I originally thought if tr played band the first time, tr could play it again even if it doesnt anymore exist. Im starting to understand but im still not convinced. Shouldn't tr store the information that the card it's playing is a band of misfits and not a scout?

Another way to put this is: if I actually play a band of misfits, then that means choosing a card for bom to turn into and then actually becoming that card is part of the action I do, thats what is included in playing a bom. So dont I get to do that twice? I did it once, now im a scout. Great but the card I throned was a bom and part of playing bom is choosing a card and becoming it so let me do that action again.

Sorry if it seems like we're going in circles, I just want to understand what im missing. Am I the only one who thinks it should work this way?

You're stuck between the two meanings written on BoM. "Play this as..." and "This is that card..."

Because of the "This is that card..." line, Throne does not see another BoM once you play it. But the "Play this as..." part seems to suggest that you ARE playing Band both times.
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AJD

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #78 on: April 30, 2015, 01:22:49 am »
+3

Shouldn't tr store the information that the card it's playing is a band of misfits and not a scout?

Why should it do this?

(Donald's original ruling was yes, it did this. But there's nothing in the game rules that states that Throne Room should be able to do that, so I prefer the revised ruling.)
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enfynet

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #79 on: April 30, 2015, 01:27:53 am »
0

Shouldn't tr store the information that the card it's playing is a band of misfits and not a scout?

Why should it do this?

(Donald's original ruling was yes, it did this. But there's nothing in the game rules that states that Throne Room should be able to do that, so I prefer the revised ruling.)
If BoM said "Choose a card... Play this as that card." then you could get two different cards from Throne.
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skip wooznum

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2015, 01:29:47 am »
0

Shouldn't tr store the information that the card it's playing is a band of misfits and not a scout?

Why should it do this?

(Donald's original ruling was yes, it did this. But there's nothing in the game rules that states that Throne Room should be able to do that, so I prefer the revised ruling.)

Did donald revise this bit? I must have missed that. Could you point out where this happened?
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skip wooznum

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2015, 01:32:37 am »
0

Efynet, I understand tr does not see bom in play anymore, Im jst not sure y that matters, unless, as ajd says, donald changed how tr works
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Donald X.

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2015, 01:58:44 am »
+1

Donald, here are all the current rule clarifications on the BoM wiki page.  Anything you disagree with?

Quote
* You first play Band of Misfits, then you play the card you chose to emulate.  In this sense, Band of Misfits plays like a Throne Room variant, and one play of Band of Misfits with a successful emulation counts as two Actions played; this matters for Conspirator.  As such, vanilla bonus tokens on Band of Misfits do give their effect when Band of Misfits is played, since token effects happen before anything else a card does.  If there are any vanilla bonus tokens on the card Band of Misfits is emulating, those effects occur as well, after the effects from tokens on Band of Misfits.
** If Band of Misfits is multiplied when tokens are on its pile, the token effect on Band of Misfits happens only once, since Band of Misfits is only being played once; once it is in play, it is a different card.  However, tokens on a card Band of Misfits is emulating do have their effects multiplied.  For example, if the +1 Card token is on Band of Misfits and the +$1 token is on Chapel, and you Throne Room a Band of Misfits, emulating Chapel, you would first get +1 Card, then +$2.
* If you use Throne Room on Band of Misfits, choosing to play Band of Misfits as a self-trashing card (for example, Feast), the Band of Misfits will be in the trash after the first play as Feast, meaning it has left play.  Throne Room then plays Band of Misfits again, allowing you to make a new choice as to what Band of Misfits should emulate.  However, since Band of Misfits is in the trash, you will only get the on-play effects of the emulated card.  Similar logic applies to one-shots that do not trash themselves, but still leave play, such as Island.
* Note that when Band of Misfits is discarded or trashed from play, doing so activates the when-discarded or when-trashed abilities of the card it was imitating, even though once you discard or trash it the card is back to being a Band of Misfits again. It is the act of "trashing a Fortress" or "discarding a Hermit from play" that triggers those abilities, even if the card that actually gets discarded or trashed is no longer a Hermit or Fortress after the act of trashing or discarding is completed.
* Band of Misfits does not play well with Reserve cards. If you play Band of Misfits as a Reserve card it goes to your Tavern mat and stays there; you can't call it or otherwise recover it because it is now out of your play area and no longer has the abilities of the card it was imitating.
Looks good except there is the edge case of nothing to copy, and I prefer "once it has been played."

** If Band of Misfits is multiplied when tokens are on its pile (and there's a card for it to emulate), the token effect on Band of Misfits happens only once, since Band of Misfits is only being played once; once it has been played, it is a different card.  However, tokens on a card Band of Misfits is emulating do have their effects multiplied.  For example, if the +1 Card token is on Band of Misfits and the +$1 token is on Chapel, and you Throne Room a Band of Misfits, emulating Chapel, you would first get +1 Card, then +$2.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2015, 02:57:20 am »
0

I am confused by the phrase "this matters for Conspirator." It seems to contradict what is said in this thread here:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11518.0
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Simon (DK)

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2015, 05:04:09 am »
+4

I think this is obvious from the new rulings, but it hasn't been said yet:
If you play TR-BoM as Feast, then you get the token bonuses on BoM twice. Because 2nd time you did play a BoM again.

Right?
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dane-m

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2015, 05:11:04 am »
+3

4. Ruling: BoM is never played, rather the card you chose is played. This means you chose the card before-play. It means Conspirator counts one played Action.

4: I think most people would think you only played one card with BoM. It doesn't tell you to play another card like TR or Golem. And there's just one physical card that hit the table.
The rulebook refers to "playing" Band of Misfits. So you clearly played that.
It's worth pointing out that there are other instances of rules that don't say what they really mean, so putting too much emphasis on making any rulings consistent with the above statement in the rulebook might not necessarily be the best approach, especially if it starts to produce results that are counterintuitive.

I suppose I'd better give an example of a rulebook 'error'.  The original Dominion rules say "To play an Action, the player takes an Action card from his hand and lays it face-up in his play area."  Notice the 'from his hand' in that sentence.  If that rule were treated as absolutely correct, it would mean that Golem and Herald couldn't play the Action cards they find, but of course we all know that the original Dominion rulebook misspoke the rule.

Here's another example, again from the original Dominion rules: "Throne Room - You pick another Action card in your hand, play it, and play it again.  The second use of the Action card doesn't use up any extra Actions you have."  In fact neither use of the Action card uses up any extra Actions you have: the only Action used up is by the Throne Room.

So in the general case what I'm saying is that if there is any evidence that the rulebooks were in error and have thereby produced anomalies, Donald shouldn't get too hung up on making his rulings consistent with the rulebooks.  In the specific case I'm saying that "When you play this" in the BoM rulebook description should perhaps not be interpreted as meaning that a BoM is indeed played, especially as the card itself says "Play this as if it were", thereby suggesting that it's the something else that is played.

I realise of course that there is a preference for treating the rulebooks as more accurate that card texts (which sometimes have to be briefer than might have been desirable), but on the other hand the card descriptions in the rulebooks are often described as FAQs that supposedly do no more than spell out what the card texts mean.

I don't think I've seen such an entertaining debate since the one about Ironworks on a Possession turn.
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werothegreat

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2015, 08:39:06 am »
+1

I am confused by the phrase "this matters for Conspirator." It seems to contradict what is said in this thread here:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11518.0

Donald X has reversed his ruling on that.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2015, 09:31:35 am »
0

I think this is obvious from the new rulings, but it hasn't been said yet:
If you play TR-BoM as Feast, then you get the token bonuses on BoM twice. Because 2nd time you did play a BoM again.

Right?

I'm pretty confident this is correct, but I will defer to Donald.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2015, 09:50:24 am »
+1

The rulebook refers to "playing" Band of Misfits. So you clearly played that.

Let's say I BoM a Militia. Can you Moat it? Yes, you better be able to Moat that. So, Militia was played. You played both cards.

Conspirator is a confusing case; obv. I am sad it doesn't just count Action cards in play like Peddler. Conspirator counts Actions, not "cards," which helps a little; two Actions were played, BoM and whatever. So, Conspirator sees "I played BoM as Village" as "I played two Actions." A rulings reversal.

I am still happy with my ruling on the tokens, you should get tokens for both, which leads to getting one for BoM and two for the other card when Throning.

There remains the weird special case for Throne - BoM - Feast. Possibly I should drop it; the people who are never guessing how it works are never seeing it either. I guess there's still the chance to make the call as to what it means to play a card that instantly stops being itself; maybe that's fine, it still does everything, therefore Throne - BoM - Feast means you choose the second time and successfully play whatever you picked.

Okay, I can't find any problem with this.

You're reversing BoM/Conspirator, and also revising TR-BoM-Feast. These are "old" rulings, but of course how many people are actually aware of them. It's good to have well-defined rules though, to put in FAQs, to be able to teach people and believe it yourself that it's making sense, and to (maybe eventually) get correct on Goko. (How does Goko handle these two cases now btw?) Anyway, that's why we're here talking about this.

So now BoM is played, then changes itself to another card and plays itself (from play). Conspirator counts two actions, and Champion gives +1 Action twice. Tokens on both piles activate. We can drop the "when-you-would-play-this" interpretation on BoM (which wasn't on the card anywhere), so groovy.

I'm also (not so) secretly pleased that TR-BoM-Feast now works the way I argued for several pages that is should back in the day. I didn't realize at first that BoM in the Trash would never turn into another card, and when I did I thought that was it; it's either nothing happens the second time or a special-case ruling. But I like the new interpretation that it resolves once you play it even though it immediately stops being itself. It's in line with how BoM-Feast works in the first place. You resolve the whole ability of Feast (so you gain a $5 cost card), even though it stops being Feast in the middle. You triggered the on-play of Feast, so you resolve it. Similarly, for TR-BoM-Feast, when BoM is in the trash and you choose Scout, you triggered the on-play of Scout (per "play this as if it was"), so you resolve it, even though it turned back into BoM immediately. It's also comparable to trashing BoM-Fortress or Inherited-Estate-Fortress: You triggered the when-trash of Fortress, so you resolve it, even though the card is no longer Fortress. In all cases the instruction disappears from the card, but it's already triggered.

And of course, the second time you play the card, it's (usually) not BoM, so no token bonus from the BoM pile.

Also, now we don't have to think of TR working any other way than what is literally on the card. It plays the card you chose a second time, so if the card is something else now, of course that's what's gonna be played. No more locking-in mechanism.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 10:03:42 am by Jeebus »
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Witherweaver

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2015, 10:07:15 am »
0

Sorry if this was already brought up in this thread; if it was I didn't see it.

Say you King's Court, select Band of Misfits, choose Feast.  So you play Feast, you trash Feast, now Band of Misfit's is in the Trash.  You continue with King's Court, and play Band of Misfits again.  You choose something not crazy (say, Village), and resolve.  Now you continue with King's Court.  Is it correct that you necessarily play Village, since Band of Misfits is now Village?

Actually, Simon talked about this in the puzzles thread.  So at the second play, Band of Misfits doesn't actually go into play, right?  So when you play it the third time, it's still in the trash and Band of Misfits, so you get to select another card?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 10:15:17 am by Witherweaver »
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Simon (DK)

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2015, 10:11:51 am »
0

If you want to know the details, I suggest that you read the thread I linked to. This is not the right place.

But I'll answer this one. Yes it is clear. On both plays 2 and 3, KC plays the card, and the card is Band of Misfits.

But when you play it the second time, it's Scheme.

It gets played as Scheme the 2nd time, but Band of Misfits has already left play, so it's only Scheme for a short moment and then goes back to being Band of Misfits again.
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Witherweaver

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2015, 10:13:54 am »
0

If you want to know the details, I suggest that you read the thread I linked to. This is not the right place.

But I'll answer this one. Yes it is clear. On both plays 2 and 3, KC plays the card, and the card is Band of Misfits.

But when you play it the second time, it's Scheme.

It gets played as Scheme the 2nd time, but Band of Misfits has already left play, so it's only Scheme for a short moment and then goes back to being Band of Misfits again.

Oh, it never goes back into play.  Alright.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2015, 10:16:06 am »
0

Sorry if this was already brought up in this thread; if it was I didn't see it.

Say you King's Court, select Band of Misfits, choose Feast.  So you play Feast, you trash Feast, now Band of Misfit's is in the Trash.  You continue with King's Court, and play Band of Misfits again.  You choose something not crazy (say, Village), and resolve.  Now you continue with King's Court.  Is it correct that you necessarily play Village, since Band of Misfits is now Village?
By the new ruling no, you are not forced to play Village for the third KC play. BoM says it is the card it is played as until it leaves play. Well, it's still in the trash after playing it as Village for the second KC play (it never goes back into play), so it's a BoM by the time the third KC play comes around. That means you get to choose again.
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enfynet

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2015, 10:29:16 am »
+5

What did we do???
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #94 on: April 30, 2015, 10:49:31 am »
+4

What did we do???

Hey, in the end it's Donald's fault for making Band of Misfits in the first place.  :)
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #95 on: April 30, 2015, 10:52:22 am »
+1

What did we do???

Hey, in the end it's Donald's fault for making Band of Misfits in the first place.  :)

What do you expect; they're misfits.
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enfynet

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #96 on: April 30, 2015, 10:54:00 am »
0

What did we do???

Hey, in the end it's Donald's fault for making Band of Misfits in the first place.  :)
And Throne Room, and Feast, and Scout.

At least we still have Ironworks-Trader.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #97 on: April 30, 2015, 11:37:56 am »
+2

It's good to know that Scout can at least get some love in hypothetical discussions.
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werothegreat

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #98 on: April 30, 2015, 11:41:39 am »
+2

It's good to know that Scout can at least get some love in hypothetical discussions.

Hey, if Scout is the only Action under $5, I might pick one up with Seaway.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #99 on: April 30, 2015, 11:47:14 am »
+2

It's good to know that Scout can at least get some love in hypothetical discussions.

Hey, if Scout is the only Action under $5, I might pick one up with Seaway.

I'm sure Scout can be part of some weird concocted Distand Lands megaturn, where you gain them all to end the game of piles, then have to KC them all the same turn, but need Scouts to draw them.
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