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Author Topic: +Card token and when-you-play  (Read 25080 times)

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Jeebus

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2015, 06:48:22 pm »
+1

But, if it's in the trash, it should be lost track of and Disciple should remember what card it played BoM as, I think.

Lose-track doesn't work like that, although people frequently think so. Lose-track only has to do with moving a card: You can't move a card from a place where it's not.
Edit: ninja'ed.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 06:49:26 pm by Jeebus »
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AJD

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2015, 06:52:51 pm »
+2

Okay, so there are these rulings:
  • TR-BoM is the same card both times. This is in the rulebook.
  • BoM-Feast trashes itself and is BoM in the trash. This is in the rulebook.
  • Ruling: TR-BoM-Feast is a Feast both times. This is not directly in the rulebook, but is implicit in 1.
  • Ruling: BoM is never played, rather the card you chose is played. This means you chose the card before-play. It means Conspirator counts one played Action.
  • Ruling: BoM gives you the token bonus of both piles.
  • Ruling: TR-BoM gives you the token of BoM once, but of the other pile twice.
  • The token bonuses are "first", per the rulebook, although this could mean they are before the card's abilities, at the same time as other when-plays like Urchin. The cards just say "when you play". However, ruling: The token bonuses are before other when-play abilities.

What is intuitive for most players?
5: I don't think it's obvious that you get the token bonus from BoM. Maybe some people would think so, but it seems to contradict 4 without having to think too much about it. If I played one card, how can I get bonuses from two piles?
6: Given 5, I would think most people would assume it would work the same way both times: You get bonuses from both piles twice. But as I said I think it's more natural to think you only ever get bonuses from the other pile.

I don't think it's obvious or intuitive (from the perspective of a player who doesn't think about the rules that hard) that if there are tokens on both Band of Misfits and the imitated card, you get both. But I think it's obvious and intuitive that if there's a token on Band of Misfits, you get that bonus, and I think it's obvious and intuitive that if there's a token on the imitated card, you get that bonus.

On the other hand, it's also obvious and intuitive that if you Throne Room an Herbalist you can top-deck two Treasures, and that's wrong, so maybe obvious-and-intuitive isn't the best guideline.
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chipperMDW

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2015, 09:04:21 pm »
+2

5: I don't think it's obvious that you get the token bonus from BoM. Maybe some people would think so, but it seems to contradict 4 without having to think too much about it. If I played one card, how can I get bonuses from two piles?
This is definitely how I feel about it. I was surprised to see the ruling that tokens on the BoM pile could do anything at all in normal circumstances.
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Donald X.

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2015, 10:07:09 pm »
0

EDIT: On that note, while I have you here, Disciple gains a copy of whatever BoM emulates, not another BoM, right?

The "gain" instruction on Disciple is separate from the "play a card twice" instruction. It comes after. So it shouldn't have anything to do with the lock-in mechanism.
So I think it would look at the card you played, whatever it is then, and gain you a copy. If it's still in play, it would be whatever-you-played-BoM-as (for instance Workshop). If it's anywhere else (like in Trash) it would be a BoM and you would gain that.

But, if it's in the trash, it should be lost track of and Disciple should remember what card it played BoM as, I think.
No, Jeebus has it right. "Lose track" only prevents cards from being moved; it never does anything else.
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Donald X.

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2015, 10:35:21 pm »
+2

4. Ruling: BoM is never played, rather the card you chose is played. This means you chose the card before-play. It means Conspirator counts one played Action.

4: I think most people would think you only played one card with BoM. It doesn't tell you to play another card like TR or Golem. And there's just one physical card that hit the table.
The rulebook refers to "playing" Band of Misfits. So you clearly played that.

Let's say I BoM a Militia. Can you Moat it? Yes, you better be able to Moat that. So, Militia was played. You played both cards.

Conspirator is a confusing case; obv. I am sad it doesn't just count Action cards in play like Peddler. Conspirator counts Actions, not "cards," which helps a little; two Actions were played, BoM and whatever. So, Conspirator sees "I played BoM as Village" as "I played two Actions." A rulings reversal.

I am still happy with my ruling on the tokens, you should get tokens for both, which leads to getting one for BoM and two for the other card when Throning.

There remains the weird special case for Throne - BoM - Feast. Possibly I should drop it; the people who are never guessing how it works are never seeing it either. I guess there's still the chance to make the call as to what it means to play a card that instantly stops being itself; maybe that's fine, it still does everything, therefore Throne - BoM - Feast means you choose the second time and successfully play whatever you picked.
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GendoIkari

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2015, 10:36:32 pm »
0

EDIT: On that note, while I have you here, Disciple gains a copy of whatever BoM emulates, not another BoM, right?

The "gain" instruction on Disciple is separate from the "play a card twice" instruction. It comes after. So it shouldn't have anything to do with the lock-in mechanism.
So I think it would look at the card you played, whatever it is then, and gain you a copy. If it's still in play, it would be whatever-you-played-BoM-as (for instance Workshop). If it's anywhere else (like in Trash) it would be a BoM and you would gain that.

But, if it's in the trash, it should be lost track of and Disciple should remember what card it played BoM as, I think.
No, Jeebus has it right. "Lose track" only prevents cards from being moved; it never does anything else.

Right, but does this mean that Disciple-BoM will gain whatever BoM was played as, unless it's no longer in play (Feast, reserves, etc); in which case it will gain you another BoM?
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2015, 10:39:07 pm »
0

therefore Throne - BoM - Feast means you choose the second time and successfully play whatever you picked.

Would this apply to BoM'ing any self-trashing card, like Death Cart or Mining Village?
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2015, 10:40:33 pm »
0

therefore Throne - BoM - Feast means you choose the second time and successfully play whatever you picked.

Would this apply to BoM'ing any self-trashing card, like Death Cart or Mining Village?

I can't imagine any reason at all that Feast would ever act differently than any other one-shot (or optional one-shot). I think Feast is just always used in these discussions because it's the most basic example.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2015, 11:01:12 pm »
+2

EDIT: On that note, while I have you here, Disciple gains a copy of whatever BoM emulates, not another BoM, right?

The "gain" instruction on Disciple is separate from the "play a card twice" instruction. It comes after. So it shouldn't have anything to do with the lock-in mechanism.
So I think it would look at the card you played, whatever it is then, and gain you a copy. If it's still in play, it would be whatever-you-played-BoM-as (for instance Workshop). If it's anywhere else (like in Trash) it would be a BoM and you would gain that.

But, if it's in the trash, it should be lost track of and Disciple should remember what card it played BoM as, I think.
No, Jeebus has it right. "Lose track" only prevents cards from being moved; it never does anything else.

Right, but does this mean that Disciple-BoM will gain whatever BoM was played as, unless it's no longer in play (Feast, reserves, etc); in which case it will gain you another BoM?
Jeebus has it right!

So I think it would look at the card you played, whatever it is then, and gain you a copy. If it's still in play, it would be whatever-you-played-BoM-as (for instance Workshop). If it's anywhere else (like in Trash) it would be a BoM and you would gain that.
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Donald X.

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2015, 11:02:32 pm »
0

therefore Throne - BoM - Feast means you choose the second time and successfully play whatever you picked.

Would this apply to BoM'ing any self-trashing card, like Death Cart or Mining Village?

I can't imagine any reason at all that Feast would ever act differently than any other one-shot (or optional one-shot). I think Feast is just always used in these discussions because it's the most basic example.
Correct, there is nothing special about Feast specifically here, it's the same for all Throne - BoM - one-shot. Island is another example.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2015, 11:07:33 pm »
+3

There remains the weird special case for Throne - BoM - Feast. Possibly I should drop it; the people who are never guessing how it works are never seeing it either. I guess there's still the chance to make the call as to what it means to play a card that instantly stops being itself; maybe that's fine, it still does everything, therefore Throne - BoM - Feast means you choose the second time and successfully play whatever you picked.

Okay so in other words—

Play Throne Room.
…Find Band of Misfits in hand. Play Band of Misfits.
……Select Feast from the supply. Play Band of Misfits as Feast. It is Feast until it leaves play.
………Trash Feast. It stops being Feast and becomes Band of Misfits again.
…Throne Room plays the played card a second time. That card is Band of Misfits. Play Band of Misfits.
……Select Scout from the supply. Play Band of Misfits as Scout. It is Scout until it leaves play.

—Band of Misfits / Scout never enters play. So the interpretation of "until it leaves play" is that Band of Misfits actually doesn't turn into Scout for any length of time, right? Not that it stays Scout permanently (because it's not in play, so it can't ever leave play), right?
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2015, 11:21:46 pm »
+2

There remains the weird special case for Throne - BoM - Feast. Possibly I should drop it; the people who are never guessing how it works are never seeing it either. I guess there's still the chance to make the call as to what it means to play a card that instantly stops being itself; maybe that's fine, it still does everything, therefore Throne - BoM - Feast means you choose the second time and successfully play whatever you picked.

Okay so in other words—

Play Throne Room.
…Find Band of Misfits in hand. Play Band of Misfits.
……Select Feast from the supply. Play Band of Misfits as Feast. It is Feast until it leaves play.
………Trash Feast. It stops being Feast and becomes Band of Misfits again.
…Throne Room plays the played card a second time. That card is Band of Misfits. Play Band of Misfits.
……Select Scout from the supply. Play Band of Misfits as Scout. It is Scout until it leaves play.

—Band of Misfits / Scout never enters play. So the interpretation of "until it leaves play" is that Band of Misfits actually doesn't turn into Scout for any length of time, right? Not that it stays Scout permanently (because it's not in play, so it can't ever leave play), right?

Yes, but you still get +1 Action and reveal the top 4 cards of your deck.  Then put them back because you trashed all your Victory cards by turn 5.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2015, 11:32:51 pm »
0

4. Ruling: BoM is never played, rather the card you chose is played. This means you chose the card before-play. It means Conspirator counts one played Action.

4: I think most people would think you only played one card with BoM. It doesn't tell you to play another card like TR or Golem. And there's just one physical card that hit the table.
The rulebook refers to "playing" Band of Misfits. So you clearly played that.

Let's say I BoM a Militia. Can you Moat it? Yes, you better be able to Moat that. So, Militia was played. You played both cards.

Conspirator is a confusing case; obv. I am sad it doesn't just count Action cards in play like Peddler. Conspirator counts Actions, not "cards," which helps a little; two Actions were played, BoM and whatever. So, Conspirator sees "I played BoM as Village" as "I played two Actions." A rulings reversal.

I am still happy with my ruling on the tokens, you should get tokens for both, which leads to getting one for BoM and two for the other card when Throning.

There remains the weird special case for Throne - BoM - Feast. Possibly I should drop it; the people who are never guessing how it works are never seeing it either. I guess there's still the chance to make the call as to what it means to play a card that instantly stops being itself; maybe that's fine, it still does everything, therefore Throne - BoM - Feast means you choose the second time and successfully play whatever you picked.
But, if you are actually playing the BoM, then:

A) the ruling on the tr-BoM is problematic because if im playing the BoM, then the throne room should lock in,  playing it again a second time and i should be able to choose a different card, and

B) the token ruling for tr-Bom is also problematic because the tr should play BoM twice and give me the BoM bonus twice.

 I think jeebus was saying this earlier
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2015, 11:36:17 pm »
0

4. Ruling: BoM is never played, rather the card you chose is played. This means you chose the card before-play. It means Conspirator counts one played Action.

4: I think most people would think you only played one card with BoM. It doesn't tell you to play another card like TR or Golem. And there's just one physical card that hit the table.
The rulebook refers to "playing" Band of Misfits. So you clearly played that.

Let's say I BoM a Militia. Can you Moat it? Yes, you better be able to Moat that. So, Militia was played. You played both cards.

Conspirator is a confusing case; obv. I am sad it doesn't just count Action cards in play like Peddler. Conspirator counts Actions, not "cards," which helps a little; two Actions were played, BoM and whatever. So, Conspirator sees "I played BoM as Village" as "I played two Actions." A rulings reversal.

I am still happy with my ruling on the tokens, you should get tokens for both, which leads to getting one for BoM and two for the other card when Throning.

There remains the weird special case for Throne - BoM - Feast. Possibly I should drop it; the people who are never guessing how it works are never seeing it either. I guess there's still the chance to make the call as to what it means to play a card that instantly stops being itself; maybe that's fine, it still does everything, therefore Throne - BoM - Feast means you choose the second time and successfully play whatever you picked.
But, if you are actually playing the BoM, then:

A) the ruling on the tr-BoM is problematic because if im playing the BoM, then the throne room should lock in,  playing it again a second time and i should be able to choose a different card, and

B) the token ruling for tr-Bom is also problematic because the tr should play BoM twice and give me the BoM bonus twice.

 I think jeebus was saying this earlier

But once in play, Band of Misfits is no longer Band of Misfits.  The text on the card has changed, and Throne Room is now playing whatever it has turned into, and not Band of Misfits.  Throning a Feast doesn't change the text on the card; Throning a Band of Misfits does.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2015, 11:51:30 pm »
0

4. Ruling: BoM is never played, rather the card you chose is played. This means you chose the card before-play. It means Conspirator counts one played Action.

4: I think most people would think you only played one card with BoM. It doesn't tell you to play another card like TR or Golem. And there's just one physical card that hit the table.
The rulebook refers to "playing" Band of Misfits. So you clearly played that.

Let's say I BoM a Militia. Can you Moat it? Yes, you better be able to Moat that. So, Militia was played. You played both cards.

Conspirator is a confusing case; obv. I am sad it doesn't just count Action cards in play like Peddler. Conspirator counts Actions, not "cards," which helps a little; two Actions were played, BoM and whatever. So, Conspirator sees "I played BoM as Village" as "I played two Actions." A rulings reversal.

I am still happy with my ruling on the tokens, you should get tokens for both, which leads to getting one for BoM and two for the other card when Throning.

There remains the weird special case for Throne - BoM - Feast. Possibly I should drop it; the people who are never guessing how it works are never seeing it either. I guess there's still the chance to make the call as to what it means to play a card that instantly stops being itself; maybe that's fine, it still does everything, therefore Throne - BoM - Feast means you choose the second time and successfully play whatever you picked.
But, if you are actually playing the BoM, then:

A) the ruling on the tr-BoM is problematic because if im playing the BoM, then the throne room should lock in,  playing it again a second time and i should be able to choose a different card, and

B) the token ruling for tr-Bom is also problematic because the tr should play BoM twice and give me the BoM bonus twice.

 I think jeebus was saying this earlier

But once in play, Band of Misfits is no longer Band of Misfits.  The text on the card has changed, and Throne Room is now playing whatever it has turned into, and not Band of Misfits.  Throning a Feast doesn't change the text on the card; Throning a Band of Misfits does.

Before reading this thread I assumed that you never actually play Bom. Therefore, if u throne it, u pick a target to emulate and play that twice. But now that u actually play BoM, then play it as another card, y shouldn't tr play the bom twice? Even if it's already a militia, or wtvr, tr still locked in to what was originally played, which is a BoM.
 
Im not sure y u brought in feast; that isnt really relevant to what im saying, I think
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2015, 11:54:01 pm »
0

So hum have we reached any conclusion about anything? Or at least about what we haven't reached a conclusion about? I feel like I am reading the same arguments again and again, with no end in sight.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2015, 11:57:47 pm »
+2

Before reading this thread I assumed that you never actually play Bom. Therefore, if u throne it, u pick a target to emulate and play that twice. But now that u actually play BoM, then play it as another card, y shouldn't tr play the bom twice? Even if it's already a militia, or wtvr, tr still locked in to what was originally played, which is a BoM.
 
Im not sure y u brought in feast; that isnt really relevant to what im saying, I think

Throne Room isn't locking in anything.  Throne Room says "Choose a card, play it twice."  You choose Band of Misfits.  Throne Room plays Band of Misfits, which turns into a another card.  Throne Room plays the card you chose again, but now it's a different card.  It is not a Band of Misfits.  "This is that card until it leaves play."  If you Throne Room a Band of Misfits, you only play Band of Misfits once.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2015, 12:05:48 am »
0

So hum have we reached any conclusion about anything? Or at least about what we haven't reached a conclusion about? I feel like I am reading the same arguments again and again, with no end in sight.

It sounds like donald is saying that wen u play BoM, ur playing BoM and also playing the card u chose in the supply. Therefore he overturned a previous ruling that stated that conspirator counts BoM as one action. It now counts as two.

Also, this whole BoM actually being played thing, would explain the bonuses from the adventures tokens and would mean champion gives u an extra action, the latter only matters for diadem as far as I can tell.
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2015, 12:12:44 am »
0

Before reading this thread I assumed that you never actually play Bom. Therefore, if u throne it, u pick a target to emulate and play that twice. But now that u actually play BoM, then play it as another card, y shouldn't tr play the bom twice? Even if it's already a militia, or wtvr, tr still locked in to what was originally played, which is a BoM.
 
Im not sure y u brought in feast; that isnt really relevant to what im saying, I think

Throne Room isn't locking in anything.  Throne Room says "Choose a card, play it twice."  You choose Band of Misfits.  Throne Room plays Band of Misfits, which turns into a another card.  Throne Room plays the card you chose again, but now it's a different card.  It is not a Band of Misfits.  "This is that card until it leaves play."  If you Throne Room a Band of Misfits, you only play Band of Misfits once.

But y should tr play the card band of misfits turns into? it should play the card it played the first time, which is a band of misfits. Wats the difference if the band of misfits looks like a militia, it was a band when it was actually played. I would understand if it turned into a militia before it was played due to tr, then u would play a militia again. But if u irst play a band, then choose militia, I dont c y the tr shouldn't play the band again and allow u to choose another card. 
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2015, 12:16:48 am »
0

In the post from donald I quoted he admitted that tr-bom-feast might work like this. Im not sure y that would be different for tr-bom-anything. Is it because in the former the card is now in the trash? Y does that matter?
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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2015, 12:31:36 am »
+1

In the post from donald I quoted he admitted that tr-bom-feast might work like this. Im not sure y that would be different for tr-bom-anything. Is it because in the former the card is now in the trash? Y does that matter?

Because Band of Misfits stays turned into the card it turns into until it leaves play. If you Throne–Band of Misfits–Scout, then on the second play, the Throne Room looks for the card it played the first time, finds that that card is a Scout, and plays that. If you Throne–Band of Misfits–Feast, the Throne Room looks for the card and finds it is a Band of Misfits (located in the trash).
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enfynet

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2015, 12:36:23 am »
+1

So, TR and BoM both say "choose a card." And we agree that the card BoM chose is played twice. Does Throne attempt to play BoM again, but fails because BoM chose to be another card? This would allow TR-BoM(Feast) to work and matched the "BoM only played the first time.
No, Throne plays the card again, noting that somehow this time it's no longer BoM.
Okay, so basically what I said there:

Throne "Choose a Card"
- Choose Band of Misfits
- Band of Misfits "Choose a Card" + Get Tokens(BoM) function
- Choose CardX (no longer BoM)
- Play CardX + Get Tokens(CardX) functions
- Play CardX + Get Tokens(CardX) functions

This is the only way BoM will give only 1 token.


Throne: Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice.

Band: Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play.

So both cards are based on "Choose an Action card" but you can only choose BoM on the first play.

I think the confusion came from the contradiction between "Play this as..." and "This is that card..." where one of those suggests that BoM is played each time, and the other suggests that BoM is not played at all.
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Donald X.

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2015, 12:56:53 am »
+3

—Band of Misfits / Scout never enters play. So the interpretation of "until it leaves play" is that Band of Misfits actually doesn't turn into Scout for any length of time, right? Not that it stays Scout permanently (because it's not in play, so it can't ever leave play), right?
BoM's "until it leaves play" actually means "until such a time as this is not in play."

Previously I argued that the sane interpretation here was that BoM was never Scout, however no-one was ever guessing that, so let's have Throne lock in. Now I am arguing that another sane interpretation is, BoM immediately stopped being Scout, but that's okay, we still execute the instructions on Scout.
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Donald X.

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2015, 12:57:34 am »
0

So hum have we reached any conclusion about anything? Or at least about what we haven't reached a conclusion about? I feel like I am reading the same arguments again and again, with no end in sight.
I have reached conclusions, and posted them, and am waiting to see if people find holes in them or what.
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werothegreat

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Re: +Card token and when-you-play
« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2015, 01:01:45 am »
+1

So hum have we reached any conclusion about anything? Or at least about what we haven't reached a conclusion about? I feel like I am reading the same arguments again and again, with no end in sight.
I have reached conclusions, and posted them, and am waiting to see if people find holes in them or what.

I'm iffy on BoM emulating something counting as two Actions being played, but that's growing on me.  It would make it more in line with Throne Room variant rules, except that it plays a card from the Supply rather than your hand.  And turns into that card after/while doing so.  I think it's probably the right call, and making it a little easier to activate Conspirators is worth having the tokens ruling line up with casual players' intuitions.
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